Unusual Vietnam Hueys

Jon,

  Thanks for the info.  I just went with what was on the CD at the museum.  I figured the person who donated it put the labels on.  You mind me asking how you are so certain about the correct unit ID?  Oh well, I'll correct the post.  man, I'm jealous that you are still there copying files!

    Ray

Edit: Never mind, I get it. I think this paragraph from the Blue Maxx web site sums it up:

"There were only two ARA Battalions in the history of the Army that served in Vietnam.

 

The 1st Cav had the first ARA Battalion followed by the 101st AB.

---

Below are Col Nelson Mahone the 2/20th ARA Battalion commander and Major Roger Bartholomew who was the C Battery commander at the time this photo was taken and later became LTC and the BN commander of 4/77th 101st for his second tour. Col Nelson Mahone died 3/16/71 and was Posthumously inducted into Army Avn Hall of fame at Rucker. LTC Bartholomew was killed 11/27/68 on his second tour while attacking an enemy position North of Da Nang. There were several of the officers from 2/20th that either returned for a second tour in the ARA, some of which helped to form the 4/77th such as Col Bartholomew.

 

Major Roger Bartholomew and Col Nelson Mahone.[img]http://Photo taken 1965 or 1966, taken by C "Chip" W Parker who flew with Col Mahone

 

Because Col Nelson Mahone was the first BN Commander of 2/20th 1st Cav and Major Roger Bartholomew returned to Vietnam as a LTC and the first Bn Commander of the 4/77th 101st AB Division, this photo is important to the history of the ARA. F Btry 79th Artillery was just that, a Battery, activated in Vietnam and de-activated in Vietnam. Many of the former 2/20th Personnel and aircraft were used in this Battery. If you are looking for any of the Aerial Rocket Artillery (ARA) units, they are all here." Here's the link to the Blue Maxx website:http://www.bluemax-ara-assoc.com/  

 

Ray,

No worries man!  I've found several photos and labels that were incorrect in the Archives.  I just correct them and move on.  And I will say that the Blue Max guys are the absolute best!  I have never worked with a better group of guys, ever.  That goes from the beginnings of the unit through today.  Blue Max continues on today as C Company, 3-3rd Attack Reconnaissance Battalion, 3rd ID.  My IP in flight school was a Blue Max guy, my mentor was a Blue Max guy and my two "Guardian Angels" are Blue Max guys.  I'm working on a long-term project with one of them to tell the whole Blue Max history from beginning to the present.  I think at this point we've got several volumes worth of history.  

These guys from 2-20th ARA flew support in the Ia Drang Valley in 1965 and were the primary gunship CAS on station during the fight.  

By the way, check out PN9528 in the photo files.  Chief Snake helped me figure out her true identity and what unit she was with.  I'm building my Charlie model in those markings!

I definitely think I'm going to do an ARA bird with the rocket/M22 missile system.  That's just a cool configuration, and its ARA to boot!!

 

Jon 

Ray & Jon

Thanks for the great pics and info, It would be great to see the whole Blue Max history in print. Ive got a few 2/20 ARA huey pics here somewhere il try and dig them out. Heres a mean looking one to start with.

Andy.

Andy,

  Great pic!  I don't know if you realize it or not, but it is very unusual to see the Maxwell system rigged with 18 rockets per side.  All I have seen had the number of tubes reduced to 12 per side like the ARA bird I posted pics of above.  Nice find!

     Ray

Very cool shot Andy!  

I did a closeup inspection on the two TOW Hueys today.  553 is going to be put back in its original configuration and will be the centerpiece of a new exhibit in the museum.  I'm working with Steve to make sure it is done 100% correct!  Putting both 553 and 554 back into their original TOW configurations would be ideal, but they simply don't have the space for it.   In any case, 60-3553 (not 62-13553 as the VHPA reports) will be back on display by the end of the year in camo and with the proper accoutrements!

 

Jon 

 

Ray,

To be honest i havnt seen many pictures of hueys with the Maxwell system. Apart from the picture i posted above, the few i have seen all sport 12 rockets on each side like you said.

I hadnt seen enough shots of the system to realise 18 rockets was unusual, but im glad it is, so heres a side shot .

Andy

Ray,

I just posted this old link in another post, and thought it probably would fit into your thread nicely due to some of the pics. There are pictures of Marine UH-1Es with what was called a "Helicopter Trap" Bombs for want of a better word, full of welded rods that were dropped by parachute from a huey onto an LZ and would detonate and clear the area of anything over 4 inches high.

Anyway check out the site for a more detailed and interesting account of their use!!!

Any more info on their official name would be great.

http://www.popasmoke.com/visions/index.php?page=view&category=20

Andy

 

Andy,

  Check out the bottom of the first and the second pages in this thread.  That's as much as I know about the Helicopter Trap Weapon (HTW).  I finally downloaded ll the Echo pics from Popasmoke.  Now I have some ammo on Marine birds!

    Ray

  EDIT: lots of info on Helicopter Trap Weapons on Dr. Google!  I found this definition that might help:

"HELICOPTER TRAP WEAPON (HTW) MK 115 MOD 0 - RETARDED BOMB USED FOR CLEARING PROSPECTIVE HELICOPTER LANDING SITES. WHEN THE BOMB IMPACTS THE FUZE INSTANTANEOUSLY DETONATES THE WARHEAD, WHICH IN TURN REMOVES ANY VEGETATION FROM AN AREA LARGE ENOUGH TO LAND A HELICOPTER."

  That's just like a Marine to use a RETARDED bomb!  Go Army!! 

I found this unusual Huey yesterday.  I stopped at the USAF Armament Museum down at Eglin AFB and expected to see a UH-1F or P.  Instead, I was treated to this sight. 

 

If it were "just" another Huey, I may not be so miffed about it, but this is a combat vet and it was configured with the M-5 weapons system.  The feed chute for the 40mm is still in the cabin, although the rest of it has been gutted.  Apparently the Air Force got a hold of this one and converted it to a QUH-1M, but never used it as a target.  So now its in some bogus markings, outside, exposed to the elements instead of in its original 114th or 175th AHC markings being preserved somewhere.   

In any case, actually got some work done on my 1:48th UH-1C tonight.  The Monogram kit needs a LOT of work, but the Cobra Co set has really helped it along quite a bit.  I added a non-rotating swashplate, sealed the ammo slots in the fuselage, added an upper beacon housing, removed and filled in the rectangle on the underside of the bird and will re-build that area correctly.  I cut both doors off as well and removed the ammo cans from the cockpit floor.  I'm building mine as 65-09507 from the 174th AHC and she flew with a Chunker and 7-shot pods.  Some incredible side art on her!

Jon

 

Jon,

  Nice pics of a poor bird.  Imagine, to have lived your life as a Charlie model gunship slinging 40mm rounds at VC all day only to end up as an Air Force hood ornament!  Sad, man.  How about a few pics of your progress on the monogram Charlie?

     Ray

Sure!  Took these this morning.  Still has a long way to go.  I wanna do the interior properly, so its going to take me a bit.  Started fabricating the map case on the back of the console with foil from the top of a wine bottle.  Gonna re-do the panels a little more accurately and I'm scratch-building the 40mm ammo can installation.  The bird I'm building didn't have the drum magazine.  Speaking of which, anyone know where I can find 20mm (yep, twenty millimeter) ammo cans in 48th scale?  I'm leaving the rotor head alone for the most part.  Just some minor touch ups here and there. Now to figure out the open rocket pods....

Jon,

  Looking good!  Your a brave man to tackle the Monogram Hog.   I think I am going make mine a Bravo model using the rotorhead and rotor from one of the 1/48 D models (with appropriate counterweights, of course).  I have 5 of the blasted things so I can make a few mistakes!

    By the way, my dad has mentioned several times to me that the soundproofing on the back cabin wall was almost always missing on their birds.  Any idea how you would go about producing that effect with the molded soudproofing?  would you just sand it down flat and fill any gaps or is it just not worth it?  Maybe just scratchbuild the entire back of the cabin wall?  

  Since you've started taking pics early and documenting your progress, perhaps you should start a thread for all those poor souls that follow in your wake and wish to tame the savage beast that is the Monogram Hog.  I know I would be happy for any assembly tips you had to offer!

    Ray
 

Cobrahistorian wrote:

Sure!  Took these this morning.  Still has a long way to go.  I wanna do the interior properly, so its going to take me a bit.  Started fabricating the map case on the back of the console with foil from the top of a wine bottle.  Gonna re-do the panels a little more accurately and I'm scratch-building the 40mm ammo can installation.  The bird I'm building didn't have the drum magazine.  Speaking of which, anyone know where I can find 20mm (yep, twenty millimeter) ammo cans in 48th scale?  I'm leaving the rotor head alone for the most part.  Just some minor touch ups here and there. Now to figure out the open rocket pods....

Hey, Jon.  Good luck with the "Hog".

I can get you some pics and measurements for the 20mm ammo can if you want to tackle scrachbuilding them.  That is if the modern AF type is the same as the one your needing.  I've got 2 sitting in the living room.

Anyway, let me know and I'll see what I can do for you.

The 20mm can used for the last 25 years is the M548 and I'm sure it was used in Vietnam because we used to get rounds that were from that time frame. The dimensions are 18.6"L x 8.28"W x 14.6H"

Reddog

My son is a crewchief on A-10s with the 188th here in Fort Smith.  They have just started transitioning from F-16s.  While clearing out the hangers and shops of F-16 parts and tools, they came across 3 of these cans and were going to throw them out.  Like father, like son, he figured we could do SOMETHING with them.  He kept one and gave the others to me.

I thought about filling one with .223 ammo and the other with .308.  Then I thought, who is going to move those things around?   Oh well, I'll figure out something.

Sweet!  Thanks guys! 

I'll post more pics when I get to the new LZ. We're moving out Wednesday morning, so I doubt I'll get more done on her in that time.  The kit isn't terrible.  Actually, the fuselage halves went together pretty well and sanded up very nicely.  It'll need some bondo on the sinkholes on the underside, but other than that, its pretty nice.  One thing it really needs is NOSE WEIGHT, otherwise you'll have a heck of a tail sitter.  Chief Snake advised me to use pennies under the floor.  They work PERFECTLY and there's room enough for four of em.  That should be just enough weight to keep her on her skids.

Now I need to get a couple more of em.  Ray, I like your idea about the D rotorhead.  May have to do that once I get a couple D's!

Jon

 

 

Jon,

  Happy trails, man.  I hope the move doesn't destroy your collection.  I have heard some horror stories about moving models.  They're going to miss you around the Museum!  I don't suppose they would let you borrow a Huey to haul all your stuff?

      Ray

 

Funny you mention that!  My wife keeps asking why we don't have a Chinook flying our stuff up to MD! 

I've got everything pretty well packed.  The model collection is going in my car, which will be on the trailer behind the truck.  Should be fairly secure in there.  

Now to start working as soon as I get up there so I can afford everything that Chief Snake is going to tempt me with!

Jon

 

Hello! I am new to FSM forums, though I've been following some threads for some time. I believe there are some of the best huey-oriented forums here! Greta job guys! But enough small talk, cause I got some pretty interesting and unusual Hueys to show :)

First a couple of images of a UH-1C in service with B troop 1st Squadron 9th Cavalry. This is one of the most heavily armed Hueys I've evere seen and the story behind this unique bird goes like this: she was one of the last two UH-1Cs in service with the B/1/9 weapons platoon, the rest were already AH-1Gs. It came to platoon in Hog configuration (two 19-shot rocket pods), but the crewmembers felt that M21 system offered more mission flexibility-howerever they didn't have any M21s in stock, so they resorted to improvisation. They took two M129 40mm grenade launchers (complete with gun cradles and saddles) from AH-1G M28 armament subsystem and bolted them to Huey's M156 mount rings (the fit was perfect), installed rotary 40mm ammo drums (which also doubled as gunner/crewchief seats) in the cabin, replaced 19-shot rocket pods with 7-shot M158s, connected the package to Huey's electric system and voila, the mean 40mm gunship was born. Later they would replace left doorgun M60 with a M2HB .50 cal MG and briefly even experimented with a right door mounted minigun!!! Talk about firepower :) But I shall let the images speak for themselves:

   

Note the coolie hat kill marks in the last photo...

The next two images show a UH-1B equiped with a LLLTV night vision system in service with HA(L)-3 Seawolves; photos were taken at Nha Be Naval base, Vietnam in 1968. The LLLTV was integrated with the M16 armament subsystem, though the right flex twin M60s were later replaced with a door gun .50 cal. Not much is known about this system as it was tested secretly in 1968. I hope I will learn more about it from HA(L)-3 members.

 

The last two images were taken from 1969-70 191st AHC yearbook. They show a UH-1H Nighthawk, callsign ''Half breed''. What's really interesting is the weapon mounted in the forward section of right side door. Believe it or not, it's a mk19 mod 0 40mm automatic grenade launcher! It seems that 191st AHC guys did some trading with the brown water Navy units :)

 

Enjoy the images 

Ok, firstly, WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

Now you can't post pics of a twin-chunker'd UH-1C and not give us hi-res shots of the nose art, tail number and other markings!!!  That is just waaaaay too cool!

This thread has got me thinking about a decal sheet that is waaaaaaaaaaaay overdue.  Gonna start working on it.

Jon
 

KrazyCat,

  Talk about starting off with a bang!  Wow, thanks for the pics!  Also, it's great that you had all the documentation for the units and weapons you posted.  My father told me they used a hand cracked Honeywell MK19 mounted on the sagami mount of one of their UH-1B's.  It's great to see a picture of a similar system.  40MM grenade launchers were mounted on OH-6's in much the same way as the Charlie model you showed, but they weren't mounted on both sides!  Really great stuff!  By the way, where'd you get the HA(L)-3 pics?

   Thanks,

         Ray
 

Thanks for a warm welcome!

Unfortunately I don't have any other photos of the twin 40mm UH-1C. All I know (apart from what You can see in the photos) is what Mr. Chesson, who devised the system told me via e-mail... he does not remember the tail number (tough luck), but I guess one could figure it out by some detective work (that is by checking the U.S. Army Gold Book and looking for the two UH-1Cs that stayed in the unit the longest); or try getting the info from B/1/9 guys at their home page (they unfortunately do not have the list of B/1/9 choppers on their site, I checked :). Mr. Chesson told me that this UH-1C was painted standard OD (my guess is it was repainted in theater as no stencils or decals can be seen, not even the turbine stripe), had top surfaces of elevators painted international orange and bore standard Air-Cav crossed sabres with unit numbers (9 above and 1 below the sabres) in yellow on the nose (You can find the sabres design on any of the 1st of the 9th troops home pages).

As for the HA(L)-3 UH-1B with LLLTV; I found the pics by pure luck on the Vietnam Center's page. Here's the link to their virtual archive search page:

http://www.virtualarchive.vietnam.ttu.edu/starweb/virtual/vva/servlet.starweb

Ray, which unit did Your father serve with? UH-1B with a Honeywell mk18 ''organ grinder'' sounds very much like the HA(L)-3 (though some Army units experimented with this gun too). The Seawolves in fact evaluated several different door mounted grenade launchers for Harrasment & Interdiction missions: the hand-crancked mk18 mod 0, fully automatic blowback operated mk19 mod 0 and the fully automatic mk20; mk18 and mk20 fired the low velocity 40mm rounds (40×46mm), mk19 fired the high velocity 40mm rounds (40×53mm-the same as M75 ''chunker''). I just wish somebody had some pictures of HA(L)-3 birds with these weapons-I found the info on 40mm doorgun tests in HA(L)-3 1970 command history (also available at Vietnam center).

Marko   

Marko,

 Fantastic stuff! I'll have to check my 9th cav photos for any other tidbits of info on it. Good tip on the Goldbook too, I've spent so much time looking up individual aircraft that I forgot I could look em up by unit!  Almost all of the 1/9 Photos I have are from C troop in the 69-70 timeframe and are strictly Snakes.

The Vietnam Archives is an incredible resource.  Glad to see its getting increased exposure.  I just found the exact documentation I was looking for two weeks ago on the 1st Combat Aerial TOW Team that allowed me to confirm the identities of the two NUH-1Bs here at the Army Aviation Museum.  I've gotta get back to TTU in the next couple years to finish my degree!

Jon

 

Interesting stuff.

Jon, have a safe trip to your new LZ, personnal I think you wife had the right idea.

Marko,

  Thanks for introducing me to the Virtual Vietnam Archive.  I have already found many awesome pics, but this one really got me excited:

I thought I had seen almost every configuration of standard VN weapons imagineable, but I have NEVER seem an M200 19 shot pod and a M134 minigun on the same ship.  Normally, the M200 pod has a spacer between the pod and the ship to clear the skids.  I guess we can call this configuration a Super Hog!

   Ray
 

Yeah, 19-shot rocket pods and miniguns were a pretty rare combination, though several units did fly their UH-1Cs with ''Heavy M21'' combo. I saw pictures of M21/M200 combination on birds of the following units: 114th AHC, 135th AHC, 175th AHC, 336th AHC and D troop 3rd Squadron 4th Cavalry. You will notice that most of these units were based in the Delta, where Hueys could lift a lot more than in the Central highlands for example.

 Here's a photo of Taipan 127 ''Miss Judy'' UH-1C 66-15127 of the 135th AHC armed with ''Heavy M21'' at Dong Tam in 1970-71 time frame. This bird was converted to UH-1M standard in theatre, so it is quite possible that it is already in UH-1M standard in this photo.

Here is another photo of a 135th AHC UH-1C/M at Dong Tam with M200 and door mounted minigun. Door mounted minis were quite rare on Army birds.

This is another UH-1C with ''Heavy M21'' in service with D troop 3rd Squadron 4th Cavalry ''Centaurs'' taken in 1968.

 

 The last photo shows a UH-1B ''Yosemite Sam'' of the 128th AHC in 1969/70 armed with M200s and door mounted minis. Quite a weight for an UH-1B :)

 

Enjoy the pics guys!

 

Marko 

Jon,

Is there any chance of You e-mailing me the Gold Book files? I would realy appreciate it. I can look up some of mine 1/9 photos for a good image of the 1/9 AirCav crossed sabres Huey nose art, if You think it may come handy.

 

Here's my e-mail:  marko.bajc@yahoo.com

 

I am glad that You find my info usefull guys; trying to do my best :)

 

Ron, glad You put some 190th AHC photos on the Vietnam Hueys forum; I don't think there are any elsewhere on the web. Cool!

 

Marko 

Marko,

  First, thanks for the pics.  Second, where did you find all those M21 Hog Ships?  I have literally looked through 3-5,000 Vietnam Huey pics and I have never seen a single one!  I was aware that Miniguns were used in the doors of some Hueys, especially VNAF birds, but those are great pics, anyway.  As for the 190th, the unit was only active for a few years and my father has supplied the only pics I have ever seen of them.  I met a doorgunner from the 190th at the 145 CAB reunion last month.  He said he was an amateur photographer and had taken about 1,000 pics while in country, but he was wounded and evacuated.  He never saw his pictures again!  Talk about a major downer.  I am still trying to find other sources of pics of 190th birds, but so far, no luck.  Are you a vet or the son of one like me?  At any rate, keep the great pics coming.  

    Ray

Unfortunately a lot of photo's were lost that way and others like me were lost over the years. Wish we would have had the PC years earlier to help preserve them. I still have some slides and negatives I need to scan into this beast