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What color was the DR1 of the Red Baron?

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  • Member since
    March 2010
What color was the DR1 of the Red Baron?
Posted by stcat on Sunday, October 9, 2011 11:36 AM

I know it was red, but what kind of red?

I want to stick with Model Master enamels.

It looks more like signal red as opposed to Insignia.

Any ideas?

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Sunday, October 9, 2011 12:03 PM

Which Dr 1? MvR flew several, and none were all red... The one he died in, FOK Dr1 425/17, was painted in several colors, but predominantly a Vermiilion Red...  I agree with you that Signal Red is too "red"..

 

FOK Dr1 425/17

Upper surfaces, red

Cowl, Aluminum

Light Blue undersides

White rudder

Light blue wheel covers

New, straight-sided insinia with old style visible under it..

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Washington, DC
Posted by TomZ2 on Sunday, October 9, 2011 12:36 PM

As very! As “Flying Circus”! As is your face! Vermillion !!!

Tags: Red Baron

Occasional factual, grammatical, or spelling variations are inherent to this thesis and should not be considered as defects, as they enhance the individuality and character of this document.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: AandF in the Badger State
Posted by checkmateking02 on Sunday, October 9, 2011 12:38 PM

HvH is certainly correct to ask which Dr I.  The League of WWI Aero Historians' publication Over the Front, printed a fairly comprehensive article on all MvR's aircraft  in Vol 3, No 3, Autumn 1988, by Dan-San Abbott.  It provides information on nearly all the planes MvR flew, from the Albatros D II through Dr I 425/17 in which he died.

Mr. Abbott's conclusion is the MvR flew at least a couple that were all red:  477/17 and 425/17.  Others, like 152/17, carried red on the top wing, the tailplane, the fuselage sides from just ahead of the "Iron Cross" to the tail, the engine cowling, wing struts (both interplane and cabane) and wheel hubs.

Dr I 127/17 was described by MvR himself in his combat report for victories 68 and 76, as having red on the "upper deck, cowling, wheels and tail."

MvR's original triplane, actually F. I 102/17, is believed never to have carried any red at all.

What this means is that you can build lots of triplanes representing the Baron--and they won't all look the same.

Hals und Beinbruch!

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: Colorado
Posted by StephenLawson on Sunday, October 9, 2011 1:05 PM

Please disregard the aluminum cowl  stuff. That comes from a 5th generation image of 101/17 in flight.  Not 425/17. for all things Dr.I see 

http://www.fokkerdr1.com/

The red is described as "Indian lake" in the Methuen reference.  Mix Testors insignia red with Testors brown 1166, 8 - 2 ratio.  By the way 425/17 was painted for MvR at the factory as a "gift" by order of A. Fokker hisself.

w/n 2009, Fok. Dr.I 425/17 was flown during April 1918 by Rittmeister Manfred von Richthofen commander of JG.I. This is a DML kit with modified decals from the 5903 kit.

 

Stachel...unconfirmed by Armee means unconfirmed!!!!

  • Member since
    March 2010
Posted by stcat on Sunday, October 9, 2011 7:34 PM

Thanks.  I'll give it a shot.  5:2 Insignia Red to Flat Military Brown 1166T.

I figured there were many shades and colors.  I'm going for the 425/17 of Jasta 11 red with white tail look as shown on the cover of the Revell box art, and by your pictures.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Sunday, October 9, 2011 7:52 PM

Please disregard the aluminum cowl  stuff. That comes from a 5th generation image of 101/17 in flight.  Not 425/17. for all things Dr.I see 

I concurr, based on further research this afternoon.. Sorry about that...

Regarding the colorized photo though:

Chris Watson writes:

Dan-San Abbott of the Aerodrome Forum  identified that aircraft as Dr.I 477/17 and says this photograph was taken at Léchelle on March 26, 1918. He also specifically says it is not Dr.I 425/17, the machine in which the Red Baron was killed.

The black and white versions of these photographs are well known to me. I have seen them many places. For example, Dale Titler in the hardcover edition of The Day the Red Baron Died (Bonanza Books, New York 1970) identifies this as one of von Richthofen's triplanes, but says it is not the aircraft in which he was killed. The Red Baron flew several different Fokker triplanes (not all of them red) towards the end of his career, although most of his victories were scored in Albatros biplanes.

Alex Imrie in his book, The Fokker Triplane (London 1992), says that this is Fokker Dr.1 425/17. He points out an inverted v blemish on the fabric underneath the cockpit where the fuselage dope came off (the blemish isn't visible in this colorized version of the photograph). Later in his book (photograph #116) is another view of this aircraft painted with Balkan (straight) crosses instead of the earlier Cross Patée of this photograph. Alex Imrie identifies the aircraft of photograph #116 as Fokker 425/17 in its final ( italics mine-HvH) state of decoration.

I tend to agree with Mr. Imrie regarding the blemish in the B&W version of the photo... Further research has also uncovered the fact that the Tripe was all-red with a white rudder) at the time the Baron was shot down, but had, at least one time prior to that, been photographed with the light blue undersides...

So basically, I'm now saying that FOK Dr1 425/17 was all-red (whether it was Vemillion red or Indian Lake red isn't the issue right now), with the exception of the struts (that's another issue from what I'm reading) and the rudder (which appears to have been painted white) on 21 APR 18...

At some point prior to that date, the undersides were indeed, light blue blue.. This makes sense if one takes into account that the aircraft, due to operational requirements, was likely painted over a period of several days, if not several weeks, and not brought into the hangar and done up in one evening... 

From most of the evidence of the fabric sample have reviled the underside surfaces were painted in the Fokker "Ultramarinblau" = ultramarine blue
Methuen 22 B 3.5 (Alan D. Toelle)
Methuen 24A5 (Dan-San Abbott)
After these surfaces were painted the factory blue then the red was applied over it.

Now, regarding "Vermillion Red" vs Indian Lake Red".. My other source show the following:

The top and side surface show that there was no "Fokker camouflage streaking" under the red paint. the red as been identified as:
Methuen 10F8 DIAMINE BROWN (Dan-San Abbott) with carbon black added.[/quote]

 

 

 Now that all that is said is said and done, I personally go with the TLAR Method.. "That Looks About Right"..

 

  • Member since
    March 2010
  • From: New Zealand
Posted by Scorpiomikey on Sunday, October 9, 2011 8:00 PM

Weta workshop boys did this. I imagine they would have done exhaustive research into it too.

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how i soar"

Recite the litanies, fire up the Gellar field, a poo storm is coming Hmm 

My signature

Check out my blog here.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Sunday, October 9, 2011 8:18 PM

Oh man, if only I had the space for 1/1 dioramas..

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: Colorado
Posted by StephenLawson on Sunday, October 9, 2011 10:46 PM

This is Dr. I 425/17 about April 15 -16, 1918.

 

Stachel...unconfirmed by Armee means unconfirmed!!!!

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: Colorado
Posted by StephenLawson on Sunday, October 9, 2011 10:57 PM

Verified images of Fok. Dr.I 425/17 after delivery from the Fokker Factory.

 

Stachel...unconfirmed by Armee means unconfirmed!!!!

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: Colorado
Posted by StephenLawson on Sunday, October 9, 2011 11:24 PM

stcat

Thanks.  I'll give it a shot.  5:2 Insignia Red to Flat Military Brown 1166T.

I figured there were many shades and colors.  I'm going for the 425/17 of Jasta 11 red with white tail look as shown on the cover of the Revell box art, and by your pictures.

Please pardon my trifocals that is 8 to 2 ratio.  I hate getting old. . .

". . .I use Testors Insignia Red ( 8 parts) with Testors Brown #1166 ( 2 parts.) *The Testors Brown is a light color with yellow/orange terra cotta color. *  More a medium brown. *This creates a very flat 'Indian Lake Red' that R. Rimell avowed in his Windsock special 1988. *Thoroughly mixed its great. *I keep a bottle of this mixture around and use it mixed with other colours to lighten or darken as needed. When you do it its the unmistakable blood red. *Also A. Toelle has seen good samples of MvR fabric (German 60 count calendared fabric) he seems to agree. *The information we have on 425/17 can be verified in 'Richthofen' by the late A.E.Ferko Albatros Pub. Ltd. . ."

 

Stachel...unconfirmed by Armee means unconfirmed!!!!

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: Colorado
Posted by StephenLawson on Sunday, October 9, 2011 11:31 PM

Here is an older diorama of mine.

 

Stachel...unconfirmed by Armee means unconfirmed!!!!

  • Member since
    October 2021
Posted by Slougo on Saturday, October 30, 2021 12:25 AM

If this plane is supposedly the Gifted 425/17 why would it have the Iron crosses? It Wouldn't, as it was gifted to MVR in 1918 and the Iron Cross wasn't used then. I believe this is 477/17. And Someone Please answer the question, Why was The 477/17 MVR's Most successful Fokker and yet No For Certain photos of it?

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