Heller Soleil Royal (WIP)

Arnie,

I'm not flaming you, but I had checked with Chuck about whether the Syren line was waxed or not and he said that it is actually prewaxed. Definitely not like I usually wax line....... The stand up on its own kind, which I blame my time in the Navy for.

I agree full heartily that I love the Syren line and the way it behaves. I actually tried just wetting the line to drape over belaying pins as you suggested on my Nina build and it worked beautifully.

So Dave, I really think you'll like the Syren line once you get to using it.

Steve

There are two reasons for waxing rigging line. One - it lays down any fuzz. With Syren line, that doesn't seem to be a problem. Two - it prevents moisture, in the form of humidity changes, from making the line shrink and expand. Some fabrics are much more hygroscopic (i.e., susceptible to humidity changes) than others. Cotton seems to be the worst; a line that seems taut today may sag noticeably next week (or next season).

According to the Syren Ship Models website, the line in question is a mixture of cotton and linen. Linen isn't particularly hygroscopic; it's the preferred rigging material of lots of experienced modelers. Since the line does have cotton in it, it wouldn't be a bad idea to give it a light coat of wax. Apparently Mr. Passaro has, quite wisely, taken care of that for you.

Well, if it's prewaxed, that is a nice bonus, and it would explain why the line has a bit more "stiffness" to it than typical (kit-included) line....I'm excited to try it out...the only use I'll have for line in the foreseeable future will be to run two lengths of it through holes in each gunport for rigging to the hull, but even that's a ways down the road, and it won't really give me much of a handle on how well it performs...I'm not concerned at all about the line, everyone seems to love it, and I can't wait to love it, too!  :)

Other reasons that I like to wax rigging line is that it seems as if waxed line has more tensile strength to it...if I'm tying a tight knot in plain, fine thread, it will often snap at much lower force than a waxed line would...anybody else notice this?  I notice it mostly on fine sewing thread, when I'm tying, or serving, or seizing, the stropped rope on a block.

Also, I find that the wax sometime helps keep a knot in place...unwaxed line has un-knotted on me before, or if I'm pull on an overhand knot that is unwaxed, it will slip off of itself...waxed line creates better friction, in my opinion.

Lastly, I like the way waxed line can be draped to a more natural hang than unwaxed...I'm noticing that many of my points here are mostly related to the very light lines, interestingly...heavier rigging line seems to take care of itself, more or less.

These reasons, and the ones John mentioned, are all good reasons for using waxed line...certainly if people have success using unwaxed, that's awesome!  I haven't been satisfied with my attempts...though I'll be happy to use the Syren Prewaxed stuff!

There is one drawback to waxed that I can think of right now...if I want to soak line in dilute glue, or water to help shape, drape, or coil it...sometimes if it has been waxed, the wax will resist allowing moisture into the line.  And the wax can almost make the line too stiff.  So there are times when unwaxed line is preferable, particularly when making coils for the deck, or fro pinrails.

Arnie, I'll spend a few minutes today, and perhaps take some additional pics of my current parts completion...I could get a few closeups of the deck, cannons, gunports, etc., if peopel are interested..there's not much in the way of compelling progress, but I'm happy to share.

Dave

By now, most of you know I don't require much encouragement before I'll blather at length.

I've gone ahead and taken a number of photos today...this might take a few minutes:

Here's a pic of all the guns I'm using for this model. I believe I already mentioned that gunports will be open on the port side, closed to starboard, so the two lower decks will not have guns built. All forward and rear-facing gunports will be open, and all guns visible on the upper decks will have breeching ropes as the only rigging, they will be attached through brass eyebolts on the inner bulwarks. Also, only the visible gun carriages have worthy detail painting and wash. Lower deck guns on the port side have only gotten attention to the ends of the barrels, since all that will be visible are the barrels. Here's a few of the gunports, I haven't yet installed the gunport tackle lines, but that'll be coming soon (concurrent with lower deck installation, presumably) Mockup I made of the intended method for chainplates...it's similar to the instructions, using rigging line as a *chainplate*, except I am replacing the plastic eyes from the kit with metal, so they will hold up better against shroud tension. This won't be the final revision, but the basic principle will be the same. The actual lower deadeye "stropping" (?) will be neater. Annealed wire around the deadeye, twisted and formed into small loop (becket?) below it, with a length of line connecting it to the eyebolt via a slipknot. Closeup of some Syren Line...this is the stuff I'll probably use for shrouds...I like the dark brown, as opposed to black. Still looks tarred, but adds to the effect of the rope being old. Here's the Tan Syren line...looks so good....this size will probably be the most commonly used running rigging on the model...I expect I'll be spending a pretty penny on several more packets of this! Couple pics of the upper deck, with eyebolts, kevels, bitts, and rails. Again, replaced the plastic eyebolts with blackened brass. Pic of the outer hull...hopefully this lighting shows a better representation of the different colors of the upper hull/lower hull/bootstripe...even in this pic, the colors aren't the same as in person...plus, the oil wash hasn't fully cured yet, giving a bit of a shine to the finish. Inner hull where the eyebolts are fitted...I drilled out the locator holes for the kit-supplied plastic eyebolts, then pushed blackened brass eyebolts through, trimmed off the ends with a flush cutter, then re-installed them with CA. Some of the holes were in the way of where the upper bulwark will sit, so I took the dremel and a file and carefully smoothed the edges back into correct square. Outer shot of the same area, showing how the eyebolts fit. Inner hull, hopefully showing more clearly the narrow strip that will be visible between the deck and the upper bulwark part...painted it red to match...hopefully it ends up looking okay when the parts are installed. Hull with deck dry-fitted...almost wish I'd gone even lighter with the deck basecoat color...but I think it turned out pretty good. Finally, a shot of the inner hull, where the bolts come up through the pedestals and keel, I use a square of thin plywood as a giant *washer* and to help spread the force around, and to help stabilize the hull...notice the copious amounts of epoxy! Okay, so there's a bunch of pics of stuff that I've been working on since January 1st, 2015...some of the pics might be redundant with things that have already been covered earlier in this thread, but maybe this single post has a nice chunk of info and detail that will be good for reference later, either by myself or others. Also, maybe it's a good time to mention that while this is a kit with a HUGE amount of parts and represents a significant commitment of time and dedication, so far I don't see it as "unfinishable", by any means...there are a lot of tedious steps, but nothing too daunting. But, I'm still at the very beginning, so maybe I'm in for some big surprises down the road! A wiser man than myself, who was a former employer, saw me struggling with an especially long and tedious project at work...he said to me, "Dave, you know how to eat an elephant, don't you? One bite at a time."

Thanks for the pics Dave! Answers directly to my being a visual learner.

Really looking great!

Had no idea Syren cordage was waxed at all . It soaks up water just as if it was not and is still very flexible unlike the stuff I got from BlueJacket which is so heavy and stiff w/ wax it just about stands up all on its own.

Amazing work Dave, and that Syren line looks great - much better than the stuff I buy from OcCre. Have you considered serving the shrouds and stays?

I can't see if your hull is fully assembled, but if it is, I'm curious about the fit of the bow area. I actually couldn't resist starting the Heller Victory, got the hull halves glued together and the bow area assembled (cutwater, hawse holes and head rails) and it was a real pain to get it all in place. Some parts were warped, I had to use lots of putty and the result is slightly asymmetrical, though you have to really look into it to notice. Was the SR any better?

Great work Dave, I love to see 3 dimensional art.

Dave,

She is really coming together nicely, and you've done beautiful work so far. Thanks for posting the pictures, it is always nice to see what others are doing.

Speaking of serving your lines, as Roberto inquired, my lovely wife bought me a great serving machine from Shipworkshop.com for Christmas. I have the 2.0 model since I really did not need an electric motor, but it is really nicely engineered, easy to put together and easy to use. Alexey Domanoff has a video, uTube short on how to assemble and use it, if you are interested.

shipworkshop.com/.../serving-machine-20

Steve

Roberto, I haven't gotten any bow assembly done, so I can't speak to the condition or fit of those parts...I get the feeling a lot of parts on this kit will need finagling to get everything to line up right.  I did some test-fitting of the lower stern to check for fit and gappage, since the lower decks will be going in pretty soon.  It's worth noting that the stern piece won't fit neatly into the hull without substantial clamping to keep the sides tight.  This is important to remember during lower deck installation, since if the adjustments and clamping, rubber-banding, etc., aren't done while the deck is being cemented in (and with the stern plate dry-fitted in-situ), then the hull will be cemented into a more-or-less fixed position via the deck., and then when the stern is installed, it will be much more difficult to make a tighter fit.  To repeat, when cementing the lower decks, the stern plate adjustments must be carried out.

As far as serving goes...not sure if I feel compelled to go that far.  I've seen some serious rigging jobs where served lines make for great detail....but not for me, at least, not now.  I'll consider it, though.

Scott, I like the term 3-dimensional art!  Very much captures my approach to modeling. Thanks!

Thanks, Steve...glad you like the pics!  I'd like to see more of your Catalan!

Dave

Roberto, you must have a warped kit. My Victory went together swell, even after surviving Katrina in Jake's storage unit. I am sorry for the problem for you, have some rum!

Here's something interesting...while browsing through the French version of the instructions for the Soleil Royal, I got to the back of the booklet, where there are a couple pages of English text, describing certain things to keep in mind during assembly, and also a parts list, etc....on the paragraph regarding sails I read the following:

"It should be noted at this point that sails are extremely difficult to mount on a model without looking clumsy, so it is best not to use them at all."

Priceless!

Oh, LOLS!!!!!!

That's really classic!

GMorrison, I do have some warp issues indeed; one of the head rails was a severe case and I ended up mailing Heller for a replacement, which I got soon after. The two cutwater parts needed heavy clamping for assembly too. But in the end I think I managed to line things up more or less properly. The parts with the hawse holes are slightly misaligned, but nothing too obvious after some careful filling and sanding. I just hope parts that come up next fit in there!

Dave's kit probably fits much better as it comes from Imai... And that comment about the sails in the instructions... hard to believe, lol! At least they're honest...

On a different note, Dave, are you going to build up hull thickness? I see a lot of people that do it on the Victory and I guess on the SR as well. I'm debating whether I should do it myself - building up just the gun ports with styrene frames might look bad if one looks at the inside of the ship thru the ports on the opposite side, and planking the inner hull to cover the frames requires quite a bit of skill!

I have a few progress photos to share...mind you, I'm not fishing for kudos or pats on the back, just posting a few shots to document current progress, and to share some insight into the build. :) Basically, the lower and main decks are all in, guns installed, gunport lids installed. The hull is now sealed! I regret my earlier decision regarding the hole locations for the gunport tackles...I wanted them to be as uniform as possible, but I also wanted to avoid making holes directly through the wales...which was tricky, because the gunports do not follow an even plane with the wales...so my thought was that I would make holes for tackle above the wales, or below them...thinking it wouldn't look too obviously out of whack, and hopefully preserve a sense of symmetry (sorta) and proportion. Well, they look a bit out of whack, after all! I won't lose any sleep over it, but if were to do it again, I would keep the gunport tackle at a uniform height above the ports, regardless of where the holes needed to be made. I also noticed that there a lot issues with part fit on this kit so far...I've probably had to do more filing and shaping than with any other ship kit I've built. It's worth mentioning that I deviated from the assembly order in a couple of ways so far: Firstly, my means of fastening the gunport tackle line in the hull required me to install the lids as each deck went in, before the guns, and before each following deck went into place, so I could attach the lines to the inner hull with a bit of tension so they would look *fastened*...this does add slightly to the risk of snapping of gunport lids during any haphazard upcoming construction steps...so I must be careful. The plans don't call to have the lids installed until quite a bit later. Also, and this one is important...in one of the pics you can see the forward deck at the bow...the plans don't say that this is to be installed until after those two guns are place...wrong! There would be no way at all to get that little deck piece installed after the guns, unless the guns were fully run in. Just another example of how it pays to dry-fit parts for future steps and keep upcoming assembly in mind.

It's funny that my next step from here is to start finish work on the bowsprit and start attaching blocks and pre-rigging...but there's PLENTY of deck/hull/bulwark stuff to do! Anyways, here are a few pics.

Also coming right up is detail and finish work for the upper bulwarks and stern...and galleries won't be far off....time to get out the little paintbrush and the gold paint!

Brace yourself because here it comes...

Beautiful work.

I think the lid rigging cant be faulted. I really like the open/ closed idea. I'm sure that's the usual situation- ships didn't have enough crew to service every gun at once.

I have a thought, and it's only that. Since your ship itself is a masterpiece of wood , maybe the base plate should be something else? Just to concentrate the viewers attention on her.

You are now about at the point where I am with Victory, only it's taken me 5 years.

Thank you for sharing.

She absolutely glows Dave!

I wouldn't worry about the gun port tackle either. Really does not look that out of place.

As for your upcoming galleries, have you considered gold leaf instead of painting? It's a pretty easy process. You will still have to get out the teensy paint brush to apply the glue, but even if you overlap, that can be scraped off a lot easier than paint.

PS... I agree about the base. Something dark like cherry would really contrast the model and make it pop out.

I've tried gold leaf for such purposes. I can't recommend it.

In the first place, the vast majority of what's sold as gold leaf isn't real gold. (Read the fine print on the package. Genuine gold leaf is E-X-P-E-N-S-I-V-E. The amount necessary for the SR would cost close to $100.) On three-dimensional, tiny compound curve like the carvings on the SR, the results tend (in my experience) to look a little rough and powdery. The gold size that precedes the leaf itself adds an additional layer of "paint." Real gold doesn't tarnish, but the imitation stuff does, unless you put a coat of clear finish over it - thereby adding yet another layer.And, most important, the quality of gold paint on the market has gone up dramatically in recent years (largely due to the military miniature folks). Beautiful gold paint - in lots of different shades - can be had from lots of manufacturers, both enamel and acrylic. Even good ol' Testor's gold in in the square bottle looks mighty good when carefully applied.

My suggestion is to collect several brands of gold paint and pick the one you like best. And consider working with several shades. That would be consistent with the beautiful shading on the rest of the model.

I'm using real gold leaf on my America and the results are pretty much as Tilley says. I knew that ahead of time and sort of did it anyhow. I'll post pictures.

Thanks, everyone!

GM...yes, I agree that the base is too similar to the hull colors...I guess I was trying to accentuate the sweet grain on that piece of oak, so I kept the stain light...a darker color (or different material altogether) might have been a good choice...perhaps as the model gets taller, and as the more colorful Blue and Gold decorative bits are added, the focal point will shift away from the base.  I believe when I'm done, there will much more to draw the eye up!  :)

Either way...I won't be able to replace the baseboard now...it's securely bolted and epoxied in place.  Though I bet I could get in there with some really dark stain and at least get some contrast.  Hmmm...

It's funny about the variance in time it takes to build a model.  So many factors....gross time spent/available to work, OOB vs # of mods, mistakes that lead to backtracking, burnout, # of models a person is tackling at once.  Some people prefer working on multiple kits, and take turns working on one, then the other...or they decide to take a break from a particularly demanding project....

For me, I prefer to keep focused on one project at a time, and try to work diligently and methodically on it until I finish.  But I also have a pretty busy professional and family life that I have to attend to...I really only get a few hours a week for modeling, so I try to be efficient with my available hobby-time...I have the suspicion that if I got frustrated or otherwise lost interest midway through a project, and began something else....it could easily lead to extended breaks from the action...I would probably find all sorts of other projects to work on, and eventually....10 years would pass and I'd have a series of unfinished kits lying around the house!  lol

Of course...I'm only just beginning this kit (more or less), so we'll see if my opinion changes!  I could be in for a reality check at some point, and realize that only by *taking a break* will I retain my sanity...

As far as Gold Leaf...I am interested in trying my hand with the stuff....but perhaps not in this instance...maybe on a kit down the road that has fewer gold decorations.  I would need to practice on something, but I do think that Gold Leaf would be a terrific detail in the right application....maybe a nice figurehead?

I like John's suggestion of using varying shades of gold...I can mix a few bottles up, some darker (add a little bronze), some lighter (add a little brass or even silver)...and give certain areas a different degree of Gilded Goodness...I believe it could add an strong element of texture and extra dimension.  It's true that gold paint has come a long way, and I agree that the good ol' Testors enamel gold looks great!  And to certain extent, acrylic metallics can be okay...but there are few good acrylic golds that I have found.  Right now, my favorite acrylic gold is Tamiya...which technically their paint is alcohol-based lacquer (?)...but since it can be diluted with water or alcohol, and doesn't require an oil-based thinner, I consider it acrylic-ish.  Anyway, the Tamiya metallics are pretty good.

Anyway, thanks again for your input...It's good to have a supportive sounding board!  I'm sure I've said it before...if it wasn't for the great group of guys here, I wouldn't have a fraction of the interest, knowledge, or skills that I've been developing these past 3 years.   :)

Funny, I remember when I first decided to try a building a model sailing ship...I looked around the internet for forums and kit sources...I didn't know a Constitution from a Cutty Sark, and I think I created a thread here that said something like, "hey guys...I'm new here and want to build a model ship....what's the best one?"

What a loaded question that was!

But everyone was super cool, and offered me plenty of advice...and here we are.

Dave

Beautiful work so far Dave. I am going to concer with John, Gold Leaf wouldn't be my choice either. I am following a Reale thread on another site and the builder is using Leaf on the doodads and is having issues trying to get a straight line. Also, I am not sure how it would hold up during construction as well as if I tried to put a oil finish on top of it? Have you chosen a chunk of wood yet for the base?

Steve

edit. I see you have gone with a really nice piece of oak. You could try staining it darker down the road if the overall effect isn't what you want, as long as you haven't put a sealer on the wood.

At the last IPMS Nationals I picked up a "Gold Paint Set" from Miniatures Andrea, the Spanish figure manufacturer. It contains six medicine-dropper bottles of "Acrylic inks and paints": Base Gold, Light White Gold, Shadow Dark Gold, Golden Yellow Ink, Chestnut Ink, and Black Ink. I haven't had occasion to use this stuff on a model yet, but it looks like it might be right up Dave's alley. (There is, of course, a big advantage to using premixed paint IF it's in the shades you want: if you need more of it a year from now to paint something else, or touch up a spot, you don't have to worry about matching the color.)

Here's a link: www.andreadepotusa.com/.../acs-008-gold-paint-set.html

Dave, one reason you've had so much luck with this Forum is that you're so receptive to comments. (That can't be said about all members.) In real life you may be a first-class SOB (though I doubt it), but on the Forum you come across as a perfect gentleman - one who wants each of his models to be better than the last.

Dave,

I love what you have done with the hull so far.  Your work is incredible.

Have you considered using fine-tipped gold markers to "draw" on the gold?  That is the approach I have taken with several of my most recent Le Soleil Royal.  I find that it give me absolute control of the gold paint and of the detail work.  These markers can be found in any craft store. I recommend them highly!

Bill

Steve-

Thanks!  Yeah, I think I probably will go over the base again with a darker stain....as it is now, it's almost an exact color match for the hull color...which was not my intention!

John-

I'll look into that Andrea Gold kit...might be something I'd like.  haha  I certainly hope I'm not regarded by anyone as a first-class SOB (here or in person!)....I'm generally a pretty good-natured guy.  And I guess I'm receptive to comments by my peers, if the comments are constructive and respectful.  On the other hand, I don't have a problem speaking out against someone if I feel slighted, denigrated, or condescended to.

Of course, one of the primary benefits of a public forum such as this is to share ideas with one another...

This Soleil Royal thread is a great example of how I respond to the input of others...one of my first statements on the first post was in the vein of, "Please contribute, but please don't nag me about the kit's problems, or how I choose to build it."  (paraphrased)  

...And I'd say I'm super-happy that I've gotten good support throughout!  I'll take your compliment with many thanks, John...and I'll offer you the same!  I find you, and so many others here, to be great peers...and in a virtual, internet-way...friends!  I've had many offline email chats (I think docidle and I have had more email correspondence than we have interaction here on the forum!), phone calls, stash-relief transactions (I bought my Soleil Royal from Rod Millard, whom I consider a good friend), and even an in-person visit with Rob W (also a very cool guy, with some terrific models and nautical decor at his place!)...I still think we should persuade FSM to host a big ol' gathering/event somewhere and we could all meet up for dinner, drinks and a few laughs at some middle-America Convention Center!  lol

Bill, thanks for the kind words...as long as I'm being sentimental, I wonder if you remember this...my first newbie post on FSM was replied to very kindly by yourself and Don Stauffer (followed by others)...you guys were my first-impression welcome wagon, and I appreciated your acceptance, despite my utter lack of knowledge...

I do think that Paint Markers would be a very good way to go for applying gold to the subtly-molded decorations on this kit...I believe a marker would help a LOT in getting the paint right where I want it, and without a lot of mess.  But, I'll have to do a little research to see if I can find some that will be compatible with my oil-based wash effect...definitely something for me to look into.  I'll post my findings...

Well, time to go watch an episode of Black Sails on DVD!

Dave

Its worth considering too that the "gilding" on the ship may have been just that- if the ship was even real: gold paint.

Most cheap gold leaf in Blicks or such is Muntz Metal- pay attention Cutty Sark modelers!

I happen to be in the happy situation of specifying gold leaf finished by the yard in the stuff I design- big serif letters on big buildings. And another hobby I have is painting (or writing as the orthodox would say) icons so I have it around. It's the sizing that makes it sloppy- a consistency like white glue. Where it goes the gold goes, where it doesn't and so forth.

That Andrea set comes with a little brochure that explains a technique for using those three shades of gold and three ink colors. Based on the photos, it looks remarkably consistent with Dave's aging techniques.

I shouldn't promote that paint enthusiastically, though. It's been a lot of years since I've built a ship that calls for lots of gold paint. The fishing schooner I'm working on has a little scrollwork around the hawseholes and lettering at the bow and stern. And an extremely narrow gold stripe running the length of the ship. I haven't made up my kinda out how to deal with those problems yet. I suspect my first attempt will be a flop.

Well there was a railroad paint, used in particular by the Pennsylvania Railroad. Think of those magnificent Loewy designed GG-1 locomotives in Tuscan Red with Dulux pinstriping.

Micro Scale makes a sheet with those in very thin gauges.

https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrTcYBFICtV3dMAjt4unIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTIzamRjOXQzBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAMzNDI3ZDg1ZDg0ODQ0MDg3Nzc0NjE0ZTAyZDkzOWViOARncG9zAzE0BGl0A2Jpbmc-?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3DPennsylvania%2Bgg%2B1%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D14&w=500&h=337&imgurl=farm9.staticflickr.com%2F8432%2F7591178096_43d80406e5_z.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F50893925%40N04%2F7591178096%2F&size=141.4KB&name=photo&p=Pennsylvania+gg+1&oid=3427d85d84844087774614e02d939eb8&fr2=piv-web&fr=&tt=photo&b=0&ni=21&no=14&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=11lqcl5dg&sigb=13pc1u5qu&sigi=11n1fu2m4&sigt=1054r3fqh&sign=1054r3fqh&.crumb=8YQL6F0IhBb&fr2=piv-web&hsimp=yhs-001&hspart=mozilla

It's interesting that one of the better sources of paints for ships can be found in the various railroad paints.  I fondly remember the Floquil Railroad Colors line before it went defunct.  However, Model Master has a nice line of them.

Bill

Floquil and Polly S, best paints ever.

I couldn't agree more!

By the way...I was looking around for some *acrylic* metallic paint markers...turns out, Elmer's makes them with Acrylic paint!  I bought one from Amazon, when it shows up I'll give it a try on some of the decorative work on the SR.  If it looks pretty good, and if the application is workable...I'll post the results of my experiment.  I'm a bit dubious, mostly because it's (A) acrylic, and (B) from Elmer's....but if the color/sheen is good, it might be very helpful!  Especially since it would be compatible with the oil-based washes!

Here's a link to the product: