Heller Soleil Royal (WIP)

Dave,

Keep me informed as well. I live in Connecticut, but have relatives in the Annapolis area.  

Bill

Hi,

while Monfeld does make the note that the said guns were run out;  supported in a way by Bernard Ireland in Naval Warfare in the Age of Sail, that the some of the waist, the q-deck and forecastle guns were run out and lashed in this position during rough weather, both do not set the time period in which this happens. I recall some comments when reading Samuel Pepys diary on the need to lash all guns as far inward as possible in order to improve the sailing qualities of the ships at the time. As we know the weight of metal that went into the guns being discussed was not a lot when compared to the overall weight of the guns in total, so it may not have made that much of a difference if the guns in question were run out. S. Pepys was a contemporary of the time period of the SR. but he was English, talking about English ships at a time when there was a strong rivalry between England and France, with France having the edge on ships as (Bjorm Landstrom; The Ship) and possibly the better designed French ships did not need this extra consideration for their center of gravity.

In completing Monfeld's note, he too states that the modeller should complete the mounting of the guns in a manner that is pleasing to the modeller.

As my own memory is not what it used to be I will try to see if I can find the comments in Pepys diary on order to provide proper support.  

I also wanted to add that your build is just fantastic. Really great work.

Peter

Thanks, guys!  And I definitely will keep everyone informed about the possibility of my heading out East...If it happens, it's likely to be sometime in September/October...I'll try to let as many members have as much notice as possible, so that we can increase the chance of having more people *convene*...it would be a tremendous learning opportunity for me, as well as a great honor to meet some of my *shipmodeling peers & mentors* in the flesh!

Scottrc, I'm glad you like the color scheme of my SR...it's worth noting that my method of adding a dark oil wash to the finished basecoats has an effect on the basecoat color...it darkens them to varying degrees, and depending on which oil color I'm using, it also imparts a certain amount of color.  My paint schemes are pretty deliberate on my models (I like the colors to complement each other, and not have anything starkly contrasted, if I can help it)...so I have to pay attention to not only how the colors look together when I paint them (the basecoats) on, but also I have to be able to forecast how they will look together after being treated with an oil wash.  It's almost like mixing colors AFTER painting the model, if that makes any sense?

Thanks!

Dave

Dave,

I have one glaring issue with the Le Soleil Royal kit. The inboard side of the bulwarks lack any kind of surface detail. They are simply flat plastic with no planking detail whatsoever.  How are you planning on dealing with this, if at all?

Thanks!

Bill

Looking at mine, I see some slight molded lines along the inner bulwarks...nothing resembling wood grain, but it is a slight amount of texture.  That happens to be a feature of the kit that allows me to take advantage of my ability to *not give a care*...it doesn't bug me so much, and I didn't make any changes to address it.  I should point out that, again, the application of oil paint with a stiff oil paint artist brush has a good advantage for such situations.  Brushing on with light strokes allows the bristles of the brush to make little sweep marks and swirls in the finish of the oil paint, creating in a roundabout way...a visual effect kinda similar to wood grain....depending on how it's applied, and how (if) it is removed, it can help make a flat and smooth surface appear to have texture.

Dave

Another query:

Trying to get a good result with attaching the cannon breeching ropes to the inner bulwarks.

The eyebolts are installed to the bulwarks already, to each side of the gunports.

The ropes are run through the carriages, with several inches extending out from each side.

My plan was to glue a carriage down to the deck, then attach each end of the breeching rope to an eyebolt, by running it through the bottom of the eyebolt and over, and then tying a lash or two to make a small eye or loop.

But, I'm having trouble getting the rope to behave, it doesn't want to lie in a convincing arc like it has actual weight, and I'm struggling to even control the rope enough to get a uniform length of slack on both sides...I've tried and removed several lengths of the line after failed attempts...

Does anyone have advice, or a few pointers for getting this done in a consistent way? Tips, tricks, tools, jigs?

Thanks!

Dave

Try soaking the rope in water, to soften it up. Then, if you like, give it a coat of beeswax.That should make it behave reasonably well.

If necessary, you can coat it with water-thinned Elmer's glue, and press it down on the deck or carriage into the shape you want.

This is a horrible time to say this, but I'll bet you're wishing you'd rigged the ropes to the eyebolts before attaching the eyebolts to the bulwarks.

Haha!

Now you tell me!  Just kidding...I've read some advice before about installing as much gun tackle as possible before fastening the guns down to the deck, and I considered it...but after weighing the options, I decided that installing the rings (with breeching ropes already installed) into the bulwarks while the guns dangled loosely would have been a more tricky scenario....I chose what I felt was the lesser of the two difficult *evils*...though I may have been wrong :)

A little thinned-down Elmer's did the trick...now the lines have a much nicer natural-looking sag!

Also, I nominate the Model Expo Small Parts Picker-Upper as the MVT (Most Valuable Tool) for this project!  Using the small clampy-claws I was able to grip the breeching rope very closely to the eyebolts to make a nice, tiny loop to add the thread lashing and hold it together...made things WAY easier!

I got 6 of the 12 main deck guns on, I'll do the other 6 tomorrow.

I've never been able to post an active link here, it always just shows up as an address that must be copied and pasted...I'm going to try again...The point is, anyone who doesn't have this tool, needs to get one, or something like it.  I've used it so many times for so many things, and it has saved me plenty of frustration!

http://www.modelexpo-online.com/product.asp?ITEMNO=MT1036

Dave's point about Model Expo tools is well taken. That company's merchandise varies tremendously in quality, but the good stuff is really good.

I've never been able to get along well with headband magnifiers. Other people swear by Optivisors, but they're expensive, and the two or three I've tried over the years mostly gave me headaches. Then I was browsing the Model Expo tool selection and noted this: www.modelexpo-online.com/product.asp . ME  was having a 50% off sale a couple of weeks ago, so I figured I'd spend $10.00 and give the thing a chance.

I love it. I haven't been able to try it out at the bench yet, but it seems to work great. There's a lens built into the visor that magnifies by 1.9. With that one alone, my personal focal length is about 6". Then there's a second, identical lens that flips up behind the first one; when it's swung down the magnification goes to 3.8 (and my focal length shrinks to about 3"). Finally, there's a little round loupe that swings down outside the other two lenses. With all three lenses in play, my focal length is less than an inch, and I can clearly see the litho dots in published photos.

To round things off, there are two little LEDs, one on each side. They're powered by a total of four AAA batteries in the headband, and can be switched on and off independently.

I really like this little gadget!

Another recent tool purchase. A couple of days ago I had to drive my wife to Raleigh-Durham Airport, and swung by the Hobbytown USA store in Apex. (It's 2 1/2 hours from Greenville, where I live, so I only get there when I'm in that neck of the woods for some other reason.) I picked up the best pin vise I've ever used: www.hobbytown.com/.../ZON37120-Zona-Products-Swivel-Pin-Vise-Wood-Handle .

It's made by Zona (best known for its excellent razor saws). The little wood handle fits just right in my hand; the knurled ring on the barrel turns the bit. And the big, welcome surprise: it accepts Dremel Moto-Tool chucks. So it can comfortably handle any size bit from 0 to 1/8".

One never knows where good tools for ship modeling will turn up. I make it a habit to check three sites almost daily: Lee Valley ( www.leevalley.com ), Micro-Mark ( www.micromark.com ), and Woodcraft ( www.woodcraft.com ). I've bought so much stuff from all of them that I've lost count.

That's how I feel about the Tamiya Modeler's Work Station my wife bought me for my birthday earlier this year.  It is allowing me to get back into 1/700 modeling! Like John, I have not liked headband magnifiers; indeed, I don't even like wearing hats.  But the magnifier and LED's with cutting mat really have helped me a lot.  Kudos to the right tools at the right time!

Bill

After a little more digging, it seems the model "Louis XV" is also known as "Royal Louis" and dated 1692 in Souvenirs de Marine.  So I think this must be the model referenced in Anderson's book.  

Here are some images of the bowsprit rigging from Souvenirs de Marine, hope they are helpful.

John.

i229.photobucket.com/.../SAM_3193_zpsn1xx4dh2.jpg

i229.photobucket.com/.../SAM_3191_zps1ic32cot.jpg

i229.photobucket.com/.../SAM_3188_zpsxngqb2va.jpg

Just a quick Off-Topic post:

Will someone please buy this Lee (Imai) Spanish Galleon from eBay, so I don't have to?  :)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LEE-1-100-SCALE-SPANISH-GALLEON-MODEL-SHIP-00886-/271897824295?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4e5f8c27

I got all excited then saw it doesn't ship to Australia ., thank's anyway dave

Hey Everyone-

Looks like it's been a couple of months since I posted any progress pics....Guess I've been sandbagging.  I've made some progress, but of course, the Summer months offer less time for modeling and more time for gardening, vacation, et cetera, and it's been so hot lately that I really haven't done much modeling lately....no A/C in the DaveCave. :)

Anyway, all the decks are in, most of the deck furniture, and the channels are on.  Here's a few pics:

Picture from the Bow. Couple shots of the weather decks...I think the breeching ropes on the guns turned out okay (note that I didn't use Syren line for that, just some leftover Corel stuff I bought from ME a while back)...Also, I haven't put in the boats on the deck yet...and honestly, I don't really like the boats. Not for reasons of detail or authenticity...I just think they're too big. Not sure how big the boats should be on a ship like this, but when I place them on deck, they just overwhelm everything. I'm still considering whether I'll use them both. Either way, I'm leaving them off for now, since I want to be able to reach the deck better for rigging later on. I'll decide what to do about the boats later. Another side shot.

Anyway, things are going along pretty smoothly, but a bit slow during the outdoor season.

Depending on which version of the instructions I choose to follow, my next steps will be some bow/head work, or some mast/masttop prep work (and ratloomed shrouds...I think I'll rig my own shrouds, thank you!)....OR, I could get started on the stern area, making the false walls and getting the galleries and all that hullabaloo going....or I can install the lower deadeyes on the channels...decisions, decisions.

Thanks for stopping by!

Dave

Dave,

Beautiful work as usual bud. The deck and cannon barrels are outstanding but then again, all of it is. It will be interesting to see what you do with the stern. I understand about outdoor season, although it is hard to believe that you need AC in the Cave up in the Great Northwest. 111 to 113 then you are talking about AC weather!

Steve

Dave,

I'm always looking forward to your WIP posts. Your talents and skills in this world of building ship models from plastic kits are many and keen.

As far as AC goes, Steve should understand that we here in the northwest (I live in Salem) have experienced what has been a rather unusually hot, dry summer and that AC in the late afternoon certainly can mitigate the "cat on a hot tin roof" syndrome . Fortunately, for me, I have AC in my condo.

Pardon my lack of knowledge about the Heller kit you're working on but what exactly is it about the stern that is problematic?

Mike

Thanks, guys!  I appreciate the kind words :)

Steve, yikes, man....113 F is too hot for my blood!  But it's true, we've had some unusually hot days in the PNW...near 100 for awhile....it's finally cooled down to a reasonable temp this week (thank goodness!)....We have two AC window units, one in the family room downstairs, and one in the master bedroom....but unfortunately, the upstairs bonus room, AKA Dave Cave doesn't have one.  And the heat gets stifling up here in the afternoons when it's hot outside!

Anyway, I'm glad to be back in the 70s!

Mike, the issue with the stern/galleries isn't that it's problematic (or perhaps it is, and I just don't know about the problems yet!), but it's a very ornately decorated area, with many small parts, so it will be a very delicate procedure.  BUT, the galleries are where the customization comes in.  The kit is molded with the windows of the side galleries enclosed (which is incorrect, by all accounts), and and I've removed the *window panels* to open the galleries (if you look at one of my first posts in this WIP, you'll see a picture of the galleries with the *windows* cut out)...since they were molded as an enclosed area, the hull of the ship will be exposed behind the windows now that I've cut them out...so, I'm going to fashion a sort of false wall behind the galleries, so that it is more of a hallway/corridor/exterior walkway than a ship's hull.

Hope that makes sense....I'm sure it will be more clear when I start doing the work.  That's a part of construction which I plan to document rather fully and post my results here, since I find it to be one of the more worthwhile *modifications* for this kit.

Though I haven't been posting anything, I have been lurking among the various forum posts, and very much enjoying many of the threads lately.  There's a lot of real talent around!

Dave

Dave, you're outdoing yourself with this one - and in your case that says a great deal. The finished model (and I have no doubt that you will finish it) is going to make mine, from all those years ago, look pretty mediocre.

Those photos bring back some memories - of pleasant modeling hours and Hellerisms. As we discussed in the Forum several years ago, the deck furniture just doesn't seem consistent with the exterior. I don't claim to know enough about seventeenth-century French warships to suggest any real improvements - except one.

How did the Heller designers think hooman beans gained access to the two aftermost decks? I suppose it could be reasoned that the half deck (if that's the right term for it) could be reached by a below decks ladder and the three doors in the bulkhead, but what about the poop deck (if that's the right term for it)? I really think there ought to be some more visible ladders. But that's Heller's fault - not yours.

Looking forward to more pictures!

Thanks, John! I appreciate your encouragement. :)

I like the term *Hellerisms*....it's true that, from what I've seen so far, Heller have a certain "way" about their kits....I find it interesting for a kit of such size and intricacy to have the design flaws that it does.  It's not a terrible kit (by my standards), but it does lack in areas....the parts are riddled with injector pin marks, 2-piece symmetrical parts often do not mate up very well, and most of the parts do not have locator holes or pins.  The texture of many deck and hull parts have inconsistent grain....I could probably go on about the shortcomings...various Hellerisms.  I wonder if most of that can be chalked up to old technology....I'm not sure when the Soleil Royal was first designed, but I imagine it has been a few decades...

Don't get me wrong....I have absolutely enjoyed many hours of pleasant modeling from this project, as well!  It's been fun so far, even with the challenges.

It's funny about the decks you mentioned....it didn't occur to me until just after I took those pics of the decks and was uploading them onto Photobucket that I noticed there was no exterior access to those upper decks...perhaps there are staircases within?

Cheers,

Dave

A below-decks ladder would work for the half deck, which has three doors through the aft bulkhead leading onto it. I don't think that's a likely arrangement, but it's possible.

The poop (which is what I'm calling the aftermost deck) has no door, hatch, or any other opening. I can't see any way for a hooman bean to reach it.

I can offer a trick for making ladders. Get hold of a sheet of Evergreen scribed sheet plastic, with the grooves the right distance apart. Layout your ladder stiles with a pencil, tilting them so the angle with the grooves is right. Slice out the strip you've just marked, and you'll have the sides of a ladder with the grooves for the steps already cut. Then - carefully - cut a series of pieces of plastic strip, all exactly the same length, for the steps. It only takes a few minutes.

I've been saying for decades that the people who designed that kit were great artisans, but knew next to nothing about ships. They got better - with the Reale and Victory. It's saddening to think of how Heller might have developed if it hadn't gotten out of the sailing ship business thirty years ago.

Dave,

I haven't posted in awhile, but, once again, I am thoroughly impressed with your work. I agree with John about the lack of ladders, but I have one other suggestion.  There is no galley funnel in this kit.  There are some drawings in Mondfeld examples of generic 17th century galley funnels that would be fairly easy to scratch build. That said, Wow, I love your work!

Bill

Good point, Bill.

John,

Thanks.  I am also concerned about the general lack of sky lights in this kit.  I don't know if this is a period issue or a mistake in the kit.  I believe that I will visit the model ship displays at Mystic to see how similar models addressed this issue.

Bill

I don't think you're going to find any contemporary seventeenth-century models at Mystic - or any French seventeenth-century models anywhere in the U.S. Maybe somebody can tell me I'm mistaken, but I've certainly never seen one here (or in England or Holland, the only other countries where I've visited maritime museums). I remember that the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston has a beautiful Dutch model from about the right period, but that's the only non-English one I can think of. (Annapolis has quite a few eighteenth- and early-nineteenth-century ones, including the famous POW models. But no French ones from the seventeenth century.) I hope I'm mistaken.

I think the problem with the decks on the Heller SR kit stems from the fact that it was based on that nineteenth-century, unfinished model in the Musee de la Marine. (I question, though, whether the designers actually looked at it. If they had, they surely would have realized they were completely misinterpreting the stern and its open galleries. I think they worked from photographs.) The designers seem to have concocted virtually all the deck furniture from their own imaginations, and they didn't know how to do that.

I'm no expert on seventeenth-century French naval architecture or ship decoration. But I'd be willing to bet that the inboard works of a ship like that would be festooned with carved balustrades on the ladders, elaborate ornaments on the bulkheads, etc., etc. - much in the manner of English ships of the period. (The deck furniture of the Airfix Sovereign of the Seas, St. Louis, and HMS Prince is much, much better.)

I will now get off my anti-Heller soapbox. What we're talking about here is one more reason why I just plain don't like that kit. Though Dave is certainly proving that it's possible to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

As to the date of the kit - all I know is that I bought mine when it was brand new and I was in grad school. I started grad school in 1973 and finished in 1980, so I guess the kit was originally released between those years. 

Great tip about ladder stiles!

I find scribed siding a godsend. Esp. if the groovy side is on the back. I can practically eyeball scratch stuff with it and have the results be good in at least one direction.

Beautiful work, Dave.

A constructive crit. Because your wash technique highlights surface detail, a lot of the out of the box stuff like knightheads, taffrails and such are showing off their mold parting seams. A few quick strokes with those foam backed emery nail sticks from CVS will solve that.

Always a pleasure to see your work.

My most recent completed model is over in Armor. "Tiran 5 completed" if you wonder why I've been away a little.

I received my first SR as a Christmas gift in 1976.  I also realize that there would be no contemporary models from 17th century France. I was referring to models of 17th century French ships made later. I would simply like to see how other, more accomplished modelers, handled this issue.  According to Mondfeld, most 17th century ships did not use sky lights; these came into widespread use only at the end of the 17th century. He then posts drawings of examples.

This begs the question about which SR the kit depicts. There were three Ships of the Line with that name:

   Soleil Royal (1670)

   Soleil Royal (1692)

   Soleil Royal (1749)

The first was destroyed at the Battle of La Hague. Jean Berain served as the designer of her decor, and he left several drawings and paintings showing her bow and stern quarters. The Heller model is clearly not of this ship.

The third was an 80 gun Ship of the Line, so the Heller kit cannot depict that ship.

The second, similar to the first, was also a 104 gun three decker built in 1692 as Foudroyant but changed to Le Soleil Royal upon commissioning in 1693.  She was scuttled in 1707.  I have seen several paintings purporting to show this ship in different battles and at differing angles. Obviously, these paintings were done by different artists and can in no way be considered as reliable, but the paintings seem to show a ship that does have some features in common with the Heller model. Unfortunately, I cannot remember the artists' names. I have saved them on my computer.

Anyway, I am inclined to believe that the model represents the second ship. Therefore, I wonder about whether or not I should include sky lights in my versions of her.

Either way, it is a guessing game. There is no evidence for either way.

Bill

Thanks, Bill....I'll probably just leave those rear decks the way they are....my suspension of disbelief can handle the lack of ladders! :)

I think I might go ahead and put together a galley funnel, just for fun.

THX!

Dave

Thanks for all the tips and info, everyone!

I may someday build a Sovereign of the Seas kit, probably the Airfix one (is there a *better* one available?)....but honestly, I really, really, wish a newly-tooled kit of that subject would come out...that would be very cool.

Dave,

To the best of my knowledge, there were four different plastic models of the Sovereign of the Seas. One was an old Aurora kit, which was very small and is out of production.  Pyro did one, which was also released by Lindbergh under its correct name, now marketed by Lindbergh in  its "pirate ship" series. I know of no other versions in plastic.  Airfix manufactured two different kits, one at 1/600 scale (out of production) and the 1/180 (?) kit we know now.

Three of the HECEPOB companies also manufacture this ship in wood,  Mantua, Sergal, and DeAgostini. They are quite expensive.  DeAgostini has an  interesting approach, selling their kits as subscriptions, each being composed of a magazine for the instructions for the section that comes enclosed, so, instead of purchasing the entire kit at once, you would purchase one small component of the kit at a time.

Mamoli had one kit of the Prince, but I don't know if that is still available any more. Mamoli went out of business because of a fire at their production site. AgesofSail.com might have a few left.

Bill

I didn't know Mamoli had gone out of business. I hope nobody was injured in the fire - but good riddance. Mamoli was always one of the worst of the HECEPOB perpetrators.