trumpeter 1/200 missouri and full pontos .

You Know;

    You just saved me a bunch of money. If the Iowa is anything like this I won't be buying it either. For all that's Holy, why can't they get the Bow and Stem correct according to photos and plans. They also never include the  Below the waterline Bulb, However small on any ship that has one!. Look at the Box Art. Look at the Wisconsin here at home or the Missouri in Pearl then Compare. They still ain't got it right!

    Even the Large Fletcher by Lindberg is Wrong! Wrong,and Dead Wrong!

Lindbergh got it wrong?

Shocking!

steve5

your right about the pe capnmac , their is a lot of it , he said with a shudder

I want to say that Midwest Model Shop built this kit (can't remember if he used Pontos), that ran to like 21 YT episodes.  Was a pretty terrific build for being mostly out of the box (I don't think his Deck Blue was 'blue' enough).

For perserverance with 1/200 Pontos, check out Steve at The Model Shed's series on his 1/200 Hood.  That's up to 30 something episodes and not quite done yet.

His build just confirms (to me) that Pontos hired the guys ar Dragon who would design parts to be 5 things when they could be just one.  Which confirmed my opinion of the Pontos Texas set.  Sigh (Hope the new owner of that is happy.)

That bow is clearly not the shap of Kentucky's, and is an exaggerated form of NJ's

Like Tanker, the fact that no one appears to be able to read body plans and put the bulb on the bow is vexing.  That superfine bow requires a bulb to limit pitching.

thanks for the link capn , the midwest model shop was the guy I was thinking about .he did get the full pontos kit that I got  and used a fair bit of it , but I will be looking up steve , it seem's every second name on the ship site is a steve . 

often wondered what the bulb was for , now I know .

steve5

but I will be looking up steve , it seem's every second name on the ship site is a steve . Geeked often wondered what the bulb was for , now I know .

Here's Steve (Model Shed) link:  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfkPhaBJc0F6h5F1FzAM32Q

He's going to build a 1/144 Flower after Hood is complete.

The bow bulb seems goofy until the logic is explained.  With a sharp "V" taper on the bow, there's not a lot of area above the water to resist the push down as the bow pitches forward.

As the pitch down becomes a pitch up there's also very little there to resist that movement.  (Now in plan view, we want sharpenss to cut through the water, so narrow is a requirement.)

The bulb creats a reservoir of boutancy to offset all the skinniness.  Which works even when submerged (physics of liquids can be fascianting).  Spped through the water is not that great an issue for the effect, either--something they did not know in 1940.

The modern fashion is to have larger torpedo-round bow bulbs.  Part of that is to create a ring compression effect which tends to hold the forefoot level through the sea.  There are some longer more "drop tank" shaped bulbs out there too--those are specifically to lengthen the waterline which improves the maximum possible speed in the water (there's most of a semester on the physics of waterline length to speed rations).

thankyou capn , for the full explaination of how the bulb works . and for the link , I watched him do the 35' admirals boat , he has some serious skills . I've subscribed to him as well . 

I found a pic of the bulbous nose on the missouri , could you explain to me what those side fenders , sticking out of it are for please , sort of toying with the idea making my own bulb , skills permitting of course .

joined the bow section onto the hull , had to use a bit of bog , will know how good a job I did after primer .

steve5

thankyou capn , for the full explaination of how the bulb works . and for the link , I watched him do the 35' admirals boat , he has some serious skills . I've subscribed to him as well . 

I found a pic of the bulbous nose on the missouri , could you explain to me what those side fenders , sticking out of it are for please , sort of toying with the idea making my own bulb , skills permitting of course .

 

No clue as to it's purpose but it looks like a cradle of some kind to me. 

Could those be tool buckets to raise and lower tools and such? 

The side things are part of the build / launch cradle.

As for biulding your own bulbous bow, check out this shot as it shows the extend of the hull lines from the bulb on back. As you can see, it does not narrow again aft of the bow.

Looks like they cut an opening in the bulb to gain access for some reason.  Note the top of the "wing", looks like it penetrates the hull, but still open just above.

HooYah Deep Sea

The side things are part of the build / launch cradle.

As for biulding your own bulbous bow, check out this shot as it shows the extend of the hull lines from the bulb on back. As you can see, it does not narrow again aft of the bow.

 

Is the Navy that paranoid about the ship moving without permmission that they drop anchor in dry dock? LOLOLOL! 

Well, some ships are more motivated than others .  .  .

No actually, you should note that that chain is considerably smaller than the anchor chains, and is there for streaming paravanes (mine sweeping). As the paravanes swing out because of their 'wings' , the chain weight keeps them from pulling the cable out of the water. Without the cable in the water, you don't catch mines, you find them when they detonate against the hull, which is not a recommended practice.

here we go , didn't think I was much of  a sculptor , this is as good as I can do . will hit it with some primer see what needs to be fixed . at least it has a bulbous nose now , still have to fix the little ring down below , that should be easy enough , get back to you soon .

You've got the width looking good, but there's a bit too much toe. In profile, the bow below the waterline should be near verticle. Check out the photo of Iowa's bow, which should be identical.

And a drawing of Missouri,

steve5, why are you doing that as that as not a New Mexico class battleship? download this link as is a set of plans for that ship. BB-63 - USS Missouri - Booklet of General Plans, 1950, Iowa Class https://maritime.org/doc/plans/bb63.pdf

steve5

thankyou capn , for the full explaination of how the bulb works . and for the link , I watched him do the 35' admirals boat , he has some serious skills . I've subscribed to him as well . 

I found a pic of the bulbous nose on the missouri , could you explain to me what those side fenders , sticking out of it are for please , sort of toying with the idea making my own bulb , skills permitting of course .

I believe those are "drag wings" to slow the ship once the forefoot hits the water to keep her from skeedaddling out once off the launching ways.

The suspended bundles of chains pay out to also brake the speed built up as 881 feet of hull trundle off the ways.

Dang it. No one has published online Page 450 of the 1943 Blueacket's Manual, which shows the skeg version.  Or, Page 64 of Seamanship, NavPers 16118-B, 1953 (which has an aentire section on streaming paravanes).  Very odd that the rigging does not appear in later BJM.

The Skeg exists to have a loop of chain, one on either side of the bow.  There's an eye in that chain, to which the paravane streaming line is shackled onto.  The shain is used to haul the streaming wire down to the level of the skeg.  The chain is then used to hoist the shackle back up to deck level for recovery.  (all of this applies only to capitol ships, mine sweepers stream the stern with weasles and otters to pull the wire down to required depth).

Found this photo:

Paravane cable would be one of the things that would have been stowed in a reel on the foredeck, possibly under a canvas cover.

Oh, and I found this, too:

Once the paravanes were discontinuted (in the late 50s) the chains and bow rigging were unshipped.  Only the skeg, welded to the bow remained.

thankyou for that capn , i learn a lot from you mate . I have started shaving excess milliput from the bulb , as others have suggested , i can only go so far as I put a ball to the bow , to start me off . live and learn I will be better next time .

thanks for the colour shot too , I didn't realise how wide the boot stripe was , it will come in handy .

HooYah Deep Sea

Well, some ships are more motivated than others .  .  .

No actually, you should note that that chain is considerably smaller than the anchor chains, and is there for streaming paravanes (mine sweeping). As the paravanes swing out because of their 'wings' , the chain weight keeps them from pulling the cable out of the water. Without the cable in the water, you don't catch mines, you find them when they detonate against the hull, which is not a recommended practice.

 

 

"Not a recommended practice".  Yeah, I can see the wisdom in that. Lol!

Yes, and CapnMac, that loop casting welded at the bottom of the hull is not for the paravane gear, it's there so you can haul in boat up on to the trailer .  .  . (Doesn't everyone trailer their battleship during the off season?) Slip space at the marina is so expensive these days!!

Thanks for the sweeping notes, good to know stuff. And no, it wasn't in my issued copy of the Bluejackets Manual.

steve5

I didn't realise how wide the boot stripe was

WWII used a wider stripe than in peactime, and with some variations with each of the ships presently, too.

From photos, Missouri appears to have the current skinniest, 4 or 5 feet.
From having been next to her, Wisconsin is showing 10-12 feet (which is near the WWII dimension).

Oh, and when you get under the counter at the stern, the stripe remains horizontal, parallel to the keel, and not a constant width.  This can be tricky masking and wants careful marking of the waterlines.

HooYah Deep Sea

And no, it wasn't in my issued copy of the Bluejackets Manual.

It's in none of the five copies I have, which go back to '38.

I'm now looking for a manual on Minesweeping, as I know at least on of my references covers capitol ship streaming, and points out all the differences from dedicated Minesweeper operations.

And those are distinctly different operations.

And the MS ships towed the sweeps, so the whole vessel was in front of the sweep wires.

is this what you mean capn , the boot stripe tapers down at the aft end .

I've shaved the bulb down as far as I can really go , if it's not 100% accruate I'm sorry , but I'm pretty happy with it , as it was my first go at milliput , which was very old and didn't want to mix too well .

steve5

is this what you mean capn , the boot stripe tapers down at the aft end .

I've shaved the bulb down as far as I can really go , if it's not 100% accruate I'm sorry , but I'm pretty happy with it , as it was my first go at milliput , which was very old and didn't want to mix too well .

 

Looks good to me. 

Steve-. If I can suggest...block up the hull so its level, and you can go completely around it.  Mark your boot upper and lower lines.  Take a sharp pencil and make some kind of jig to hold at those two heights.  Go completely around, and there is your masking line for the boot.

Steve, that taper you are seeing is just the watermark on the boot topping. The boot topping is the same height all the way around the hull VISUALLY. So, if you could pick up the hull to where it is horizontal to your view, the boot topping would appear the same height or thickness all the way around. Now with that in mind, any place where the hull is angled, like back near the stern, above the screws, the stripe will be a bit wider because of the angle. That is what CapnMac was referring to.

steve5

is this what you mean capn , the boot stripe tapers down at the aft end .

Yes.  You cannot, say, just use 10mm wide tape to make the stripe, as the top and bottom are meant to be level of the waterline.

And, an 8' boot might be 2 feet below the Load Water line, and 6' above (to account for all the weight of ammo, fuel, prvisions ,and the like, that are to be expended on cruise).

Now, just wait until we all get into the debate about whether the exposed shafts were bare metal or painted hull bottom color

Thanks Skipper!

Now, as to the shafts .  .  . since they are just as susceptible to fouling as the rest of the hull, they should be painted, normally the same anti-foul paint as the underwater hull .  .  . with the exception of right before and right after they come in and out of the stern tube, any intermediate struts, and the strut bearing. All of which are miniscule when playing in 1/200 or smaller.

HooYah Deep Sea

since they are just as susceptible to fouling as the rest of the hull

Other than when turning, which tends to prevent accumulation of fouling.

There are photos of a number of large ships with "bare" shafts--just not with any consistency.  With the right mill finish and perhaps a lacquer finish, the metal would still look "metalic" and not hull bottom color.

It's an endless debate for modelers, and really needs reasonably good photos.  And people disinclined to pointless debate (wait, I said modelers, right?)

CapnMac, I'm quite aware of that sort of stuff as back in 1990-91, I was one of the guys who scheduled the entire Pacific fleet for the waterborne hull cleaning program and ran the contractors when they were scheduled to clean ships in Long Beach and the Bay area.

I specifically was the guy who maintained the files as to the ship, paint type, last cleaning, schedule for next cleaning, and whether it would be a full or interim clean.

Yeah, been there, done that, goin back for more!!!

getting back on subject guy's , I could be a while posting again , the ones on the left 50 of on the right 30 of , with lots of parts , see you then .

I did notice their was a lip around the edge of the forward gun station  , so I added some styrene , could anyone tell me what the middle hole is for . it look's like a mooring point , but where does the rope or chain  connect to to on the deck .

Commonly referred to as the bullnose (because a lot of ships actually have two holes there, like nostrils), the center opening is for the minesweeping chain we were discussing earlier, and for mooring and towing.

I was involved in towing Missouri from Bremerton, down to Long Beach for reactivation back in the 1980's. Here we are picking up the tow out in the Strait of Juan de Fuca.

Hi, HooYah!

     If you go to ship sites You'll see a lot of ships with a Fair-Lead, at the bow. It's closed at the top and it is used for both Towing and originally a minsweeping coil to be dropped. They also are very handy for the Tow purpose as they allow very large Hawsers in.

    The Fairleads are sometimes open at the top to allow line to be dropped in while mooring as it's easier to handle for the run to the warping engine or winch!Then when done the lines are quickly wrapped around the bitts for holding and locking the loops to allow the lines to hold and flex when the ship moves. 

      Oh. as far as the shafts are concerned( The screws too.) After sitting, for in some cases years they get fouled with underwater growth. They do in some cases have divers and small barges with High pressure water and Air to Blow them off occassionally. The municipalities nearby don't like that. It fouls the water around the Yacht Club Marinas, Poor things!

steve5

it look's like a mooring point , but where does the rope or chain connect to to on the deck .

Ought to be a deck opening about 45º  back and up.

For towing, the chain would be stopped off with several of the regular pelican hooks normally used for the anchor chain. As for mooring lines, on a ship like that, the bullnose would usually only be used for either long term moors, or for a storm wire. In either case there is a set of bitts on both sides of the bow that would be the securing point. Also, the mooring line / storm wire would be routed under the bow gun tub.

thanks guy's , for the info . the best part of this site learning .

I think you did a excellent job of correcting the bow form.

cheers thuntboss . finally got the 40mm bofors together , now for the smaller guns their is only 50 of those , 

steve5

finally got the 40mm bofors together

The "deck" bits are meant to be Deck Blue, but that was inconsistent.

Wartime photos generally show Gray barrels and actions with dark or black at the recoil spring area.

Let's see if this will show:

All the verticals will match nearby verticals.

There are some ratime photos with the tops of the barrels in Deck Blue with a wavy edge.  None are much seen on Iowas, though.

IIRC, Pontos gives you material for all the clip racks around the tubs, too. [o_O]  The racks are the color of the tub.  The clips for the rounds are a steel sort of color.  But, the clip racks are as often empty as full in photos, in case you'd rather this was sensible.

The 20mm mounts are a simpler paint scheme, luckily

Pertty much every thing is in Vertical Gray, other thna the recoil spring & magazine.

Magazines, IRL, are dark charcoal sort of color.

thanks for that capn . can i ask where you are getting these pics from , would love them .

steve5

ask where you are getting these pics from

Used google Images.

First batch was "Quad forty uss missouri"

Second batch was "20mm Iowa Class"

thanks capnmac82

Holy smoke, Steve. Where do I begin? You went large...booya.

Whats funny is that I am currently watching the youtube bloke you mentioned. I often thought maybe I would build one of these when I reach retirement. But man... though I'd have more time, not sure I'd want to tackle it. Good for you Mate! I sure wish the subscribe feature was working for me because I will miss all your updates as they happen.

Nice work on the bulb feature. How crazy that was not added in the design of the model. As meticulous as youtube guy is, I don't think he caught that omission. 

I am laughing at all the banter. Painted shaft, not painted, what a hoot. Good stuff though. You have a lot of expertise here to help.

Now I know where Capn is camping. Lol.

Keep up the good work Steve. Looking good!

Bakster

Whats funny is that I am currently watching the youtube bloke you mentioned

Midwest Model Shop?  They (he and the wife) are uilding a 1/200 Titanic.  I'm biased, but his Arizona may have turned out better than his Missouri.

How crazy that was not added in the design of the model.

The PRC companies (Merit as well as Trumpy) seem to fall afoul of this.  If it's not in the CAD, it doesn't get into the CAM, so, it's not moulded.  That may jest be down to how they shop the CAD work out.  If all you do is use the flat drawings and never check them agains actual photos (or you Government restricts things like Google Images) your output is kind of limited.  Ship plans often have artisitc license in them until you get to the actual Builder's Plans (and those can lead astray--one of an Officer's duties on arriving at a new ship is going over the "official" plans to see where the specific ship differs from the "Class" plans--and a number of Binders of Inforamation fro mthe Type Command).

Now I know where Capn is camping. Lol.

Camp?  Like any good officer I tour about gathering information, sharing as required, and making a list to 'share' with the XO

CapnMac82

Midwest Model Shop?  They (he and the wife) are uilding a 1/200 Titanic.  I'm biased, but his Arizona may have turned out better than his Missouri.

That's them. I am following the Titantic build as well. I have not viewed the Arizona build but I will. I have to hand it to the guy in that these kits are massive projects, especially with all the PE. The guy seems to have a demanding fulltime job too. Good thing his wife seems to support his hobby too. 

CapnMac82

The PRC companies (Merit as well as Trumpy) seem to fall afoul of this.  If it's not in the CAD, it doesn't get into the CAM, so, it's not moulded.  That may jest be down to how they shop the CAD work out.  If all you do is use the flat drawings and never check them agains actual photos (or you Government restricts things like Google Images) your output is kind of limited.  Ship plans often have artisitc license in them until you get to the actual Builder's Plans (and those can lead astray--one of an Officer's duties on arriving at a new ship is going over the "official" plans to see where the specific ship differs from the "Class" plans--and a number of Binders of Inforamation fro mthe Type Command).

Interesting info. It is just a shame more attention to detail is not made. 

CapnMac82

Camp?  Like any good officer I tour about gathering information, sharing as required, and making a list to 'share' with the XO

Lol. You crack me up sir. Good job!

steve5

getting back on subject guy's , I could be a while posting again , the ones on the left 50 of on the right 30 of , with lots of parts , see you then

Steve... seeing all that PE you have to do makes my eyes roll back and I go into seizures. You are a good man, Charlie Brown. Good luck and I look forward to the progress reports. 

thanks for looking in steve , I may end up looking like charlie brown after all these %$#^ guns 

 I am very thankful the capn is on board too mate . good man to have around .

Nice work!  A very ambitious project, to be sure.  The Pontos set is very comprehensive and goes a long way in helping the kit, overcoming many shortcomings.

Trumpeter is known for producing kits with some accuracy issues.  But they offer subjects one can't find anywhere else.  Large 1/200 scale kits have a lot of "wow factor".

One of the more conspicuous shortcomings of the kit is that Trumpeter included the wrong 5"/38 twin-gun mounts, an easy mistake to make.  The Trumpeter kit includes Mk.32 mounts, which were fit to cruisers, aircraft carriers, reconstructed pre-war battleships like Nevada and Pennsylvania, and other ships where weight was in important consideration.  Fast battleships of the Iowa class, South Dakota class, and North Carolina class were fit with heavier Mk.28 mounts, which have a slightly different shape and thicker armor.  Missouri and Iowa carried the heavy Mk.28 mounts, not the Mk.32s included in the Trumpeter kits.

Click here for a US Navy drawing of the heavy Mk.28 Mount, fully dimensioned.

Click here for a US Navy drawing of the lighter Mk.32 Mount, fully dimensioned.

The two mounts have a similar shape and the same width but the Mk.28 is taller by nearly 6 inches and the Mk.32 is longer aft.  This makes the Mk.32 look squater.  To the casual viewer, the difference in the shape of the front of the mount is more noticeable.  The vertical portion at the bottom is taller on Mk.28 mounts.

Mk.32 mounts are correct for Essex class carriers, USS Saratoga CV-3, Baltimore and Cleveland class cruisers, rebuilt battleships Nevada, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, California and West Virginia, and other ships, too.

Early Atlanta class cruisers carried Mk.29 mounts which were dimensionally identical to the Missouri's Mk.28s.  Later ships of the Atlanta class (also called Oakland class) carried the lighter Mk.32s.

Another configuration of twin-gun 5"/38 mount was commonly fit to Allen M. Sumner and Gearing class destroyers.  Called the Mk.38 mount, it was even lighter yet and a bit smaller.  Mk.38s can be easily identified by the conspicuous, external rotation stops at the bottom of the front of the glacis (frontal armor plate).  Some Coast Guard cutters like Wind class icebreakers and some post-war Italian destroyers were fit with Mk.38s.

Correct-for-Missouri aftermarket Mk.28s are available, if interested.

Again, great job and am enjoying your build!

cheers for that info Model monkey , but I'm still a bit of a rookie at this PE caper , think I will stick to what pontos has supplied . but i appreciate the sediment mate .

finally got all 520 pieces cut off and bent . that has to be the worst part of this build . 

bought this tamiya mini PE bender , came as I started this part thank the lord . they are really good .

Such patience. 

Those are good pliers, and worth the dollars.

Steve, how is the battle going?

Hi There!

 Hey! yer talkin about my favorite Hunting Rifles! Damage Control and Snipes were battle stationed in mount one with one Gunner's mate petty officer. We consistantly beat the other gunners in excercises. We got our shooting ' E " Five times in one year and landed some right in some laps in the Tonkin Gulf thing!

     I guess being raised in the South Mostly and Hunting and Fishing at an early age made us Dixie-Brats better shooters! Nine times out of ten we were OFF the Gun Director! No-One could hit the broad side of a Barn when on it! They said there weren't nuttin wrong with it, Pshaw!

Oh Boy!

 Very nice job on those Bofors! Recoil Springs had a cover on some of them. We had two with covers on the springs on my ship! The rest, Very well Maintained and kind a metallic black color!

Hmmm;

  Absotively Posolutely Correct ! HooYah, ya nailed that!

steve , it doesn't go very well at the moment mate , my wife finally surcome to an illness and passed away last week , the funeral is on wednesday , sometime next week or so I might feel like getting back into it . this is a hell of a way to retire I can tell you .

So sorry to hear that.  Don't rush back, but do things to keep busy.  Prayers for you and yours.

Went through the same thing in 2014.  Still not back.

steve5

steve , it doesn't go very well at the moment mate , my wife finally surcome to an illness and passed away last week , the funeral is on wednesday , sometime next week or so I might feel like getting back into it . this is a hell of a way to retire I can tell you .

 

Oh my gosh, Steve. I am SO sorry to hear this. This is aweful and the worst news. Nothing I can say will make a difference. Just know that if I can help in some way, let me know.

Yes. The model will wait.

goldhammer

Went through the same thing in 2014.  Still not back.

 I am sorry for your loss too, GH. Heartbreaking. 

Oh My:

    I am so sorry to hear that.I went through that Twice. I will have you and your Safety in my prayers!

thankyou gentlemen for the kind words and thoughts .

Very, very sorry for your loss.  Best wishes to you and yours.

thankyou steve , 

got sick of moping around , decided to finish of the AA guns .

their are a few pieces missing on each one , 8 instead of 11 , they were just too small ,  but I don't think you will be able to tell in the finish .

these came out better , just need some weathering

Hey Steve, great to see you back at it. Modeling is powerful medicine. And this is why I immerse myself in it too.

Nice work there, Steve. You have accomplished much. They look good! 

thanks steve , it is good theropy mate . 

got some more PE work done , just waiting on some medium CA to arrive .

Found an image of the forececk for you

And another (these are all as she is in Pearl)

That "skid plate" under the chains is a black rubbery substance that's a different material than the original WWII anti-skid.

And a Wartime photo:

Note the wire rope off the anchor fluke for attaching an Anchor Bouy to (and the slack paravane chain).

Some more bow details:

A bit more:

And the skid plating highlighted

And, how do you paint anchors?

Hope that helps.

thanks capn , was that antenna in the second pic from 45 ?

steve5

from 45 ?

No, an 80s era addition for the Integrated Naval Fleet Network commo system.

There are not a lot of photos of how/if there were 20mm in Missouri's bow during WWII.

The shape of that splinter shield gets a lot of rivet-counter flame wars online.

Here are a couple of photos that may be some help.

Missouri at Ulithi taken between 9 and 18 May 1945:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016347c.jpg

Missouri in Tokyo Bay:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016309c.jpg

thankyou for that capn , good thing I'm not a rivet counter ,  , 

I was always under the impression , that the 20mm guns were damaged in a cyclone on the way over to japan and removed . 

thanks steve for the photos mate . you can see those guns in the two photo's .

steve5

I was always under the impression , that the 20mm guns were damaged in a cyclone on the way over to japan and removed .

I want to remember that was an incident during Korea--50-53.

Which would explain the photo above of Missouri nested to New Jersey off a single mooring buoy, where BB-62 has no bow 20mm mount, and BB-61 retains hers.  The photo is previous to 4JUL59 for still having 48-star Jacks.

sorry I haven't posted in a while , still trying to get back into it . 

well I finally got the deck plate down and holding , painted it , and found out how many times I glued my fingers to the deck , so some sanding was required .

I used MM dark blue , but I think it is too blue , am going to try dark sea blue next , wanted weather deck blue , but none in australia , apparently MM have stopped shipping to aust dealers , pity .

tried the sea blue , it's not very well done , but interested what you guy's think of the colour .

took abetter photo without the glare .

Hi;

 On my Navy projects I use a product called " Cadet Blue" Touched with a wee bit of black. That's closest to the deck color I remember from the early to late 60s-70s!

thanks TB . will look out for it .

I have given it another coat , which has darkened it a bit more . plus I have glued the nose cone on .

I have a bit of a dillemma guy's , whether to leave the deck a wood colour or leave it off and just paint the deck dk. blue .

 I really don't trust the glue on the wood decking , and by painting or staining it , I feel the glue might let go , what do you blokes think ?

steve5

what do you blokes think ?

Your model:  Your choice.

Iowas wore blue decks until ±1946, exact times and reports vary.  The wooden decks used a penetrating stain, so it was not a case of being able to scrape paint away. 

There are conflicting contemporary reports that the Magic Carpet ships all had bright decks "holy stoned" by scrums of sailors--these reprots are typically from Army personnel being transported home, so it's all based on recollection.

Now, for the Deck Blue paint, all things are subjective.  The paint chips scan a blue-black that's more "charcoal" than the similar aircraft paint.  That's to my eye; others will differ.

My personal preference is to get a nice color photo of the Pacific, as top-down as possible, and match that.  That's a subjective read of mine from looking at contemporary color photos.  The deck paint and the Pacific ocean colors are a near match.  Which is where the "black hole" Measure 21 paint scheme was born.

For my 2¢ a lot of modelers overlook the Magic Carpet time frame for capital ships.  You get to use the 1945 fit of the ship, it's near always Measure 22, so not a blue-on-blue-on-blue blackhole.  Also a clean look.  And, the ships' names were painted in white 72" letters amidships just under the main deck line so as to help ferry loads of returning service men.

Modeling downsides:  All a/c were put ashore, and really, all the AA guns were in canvas covers (ok, that might be easier than building fiddliy AA guns)

You are on the right track and concur with CapnMac82.

Blue deck color as it appeared freshly painted during the surrender ceremony:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016313u.jpg

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016346c.jpg

Paint from wooden decks either having been removed (holystoned?), or allowed to wear away (note blue residue, especially in the lower left of the photo).  20B Deck Blue paint remains on steel strutures with some visible wear.  Photo during the voyage to New York via the Panama Canal, October 1945.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016326c.jpg

But it's your model.  Paint it whatever color(s) gives you the most satisfaction.

well I painted the deck , came out nice . the next day bubbles everywhere , at least 50% unstuck ,tried to reglue it , made a hash of it , took it all off and just painted the plastic deck . lesson learned don't trust the glue , wood glue it down .

Hey Steve, sorry to hear about the deck. Gremlins have no mercy. Keep on with it. Aside from the problem, looking good.

Bakster

Gremlins have no mercy.

In league with Murphy, they are.

Was going to share some photos of the decks of USS Texas, and how her eblue deck wears.  But, I can't find them any more, and Kalmbach is not letting me link any out of facebook [grumpyface]

And, of course, Texas is not an idea example.  Her wood decks are made up of 4x4, unlike the Iowas with 2" scantling decks.  Texas also has to use an opaque stain as the original 20D stain is not available (and as a museum, costs and wear are considerateions).  Texas uses tTexas-grown cedar for her decks, too.  And the oil content makes for lighter & darker "planks"--which is a striking effect, IRL.

A mix of black and white panel wash could get the right effect, with maybe a wood stain over, a la Bakster's technique, could be a winner.

your ship is coming along there nicely. I have no love for wood deck add ons.

My attitude is that if the scale is large enough, lay them with strip wood. If the scale is too small paint the plastic.

When using a wood deck part, other than having to account for shear and since plastic model ship kits live in a world where camber doesn't exist- the deck should be made to fit as well as without needing glue. 

Any built in "hold-it-down" will eventually fail on you.

Bill

On a tangent  .  .  .  Thanks Bill; I was debating on using an aftermarket wood deck on my Alaska build, but this comment of your's clears it up. I agree 100%.

you know what , I think you're right bill . less aggravation too . when it's finished you probably wouldn't even notice it .

I just realised , I haven't been taking any pic's . doesn't look like much , but believe me it's a fair bit of work .

think I might have to invest in a new camera .

It's probably too late in your process, but, ther ecan be an advantage in having two deck blue colors, one for the wood deck, and the other for steel decks.

The USN formulas were meant to be similar and near identical; but, the materials were dissimilar and showed it.  And, we are modeling here, so a touch of contrast in the materials can help show off our efforts on those diffferent materials.

My dad did a midshipman cruise on Missouri in 1953, he had remarked that the linoeulm in the signalman area (where the flagbags and signal lights are) was a neep, dark brown ("Hershey's" was the word he used) which was near as dark as the deck gray on the nearby metal decks.

And all the WWII combatants has some form of brown linoleum, iJN with their very chestnut red; USN with a russet leather; the odd brown of RN Cortecine.

Just something to think about.

I actually have done that capn , I used MMs dark sea blue on the forward steel decking and MM's sea blue with a few drops of black in it for the wood decking , to try and match the photos sent to me .

steve5

I actually have done that capn , I used MMs dark sea blue on the forward steel decking and MM's sea blue with a few drops of black in it for the wood decking , to try and match the photos sent to me .

Cool.  That means any deficinecies are in my monitor and how Kalmbach is dispaying your photos.  Which is something I normally try to remember an take into account.  SMH.

sorry i haven't posted in a while guys , but I've finally gotten back on to the build .

here is pontos crane controls before and after paint . and in position .

I think I have most of the main deck , bits and pieces done . you should be able to see the two blues now capn .

More excellent detail work.

There was a photo, Iowa IIRC, where they had painted the top of the crane controls in Deck Blue--something not seen in photos of any other Iowa-class.

Which is probably like how the decks in the Mk 51 Director  platforms, ought, by regulation, be Deck Blue, but photos are few and far between.

Sigh, once again, those meanies in the past were more focused on the big, mighty warship, than on the minute details we modelers would obcess over 75 years' later.

Stern of Missourin is pretty busy with stuff, so the details are likely going to just blend in:

If I may, maybe this will help.

CapnMac82

More excellent detail work.

Looking good Steve. You are moving along very nicely.

thanks guys for the photos , really interesting stuff . but I don't know if it is spuring me on or detering me , gee there's a lot of stuff there . 

hooyah , is that photo from 1945 , the reason I ask , is those two extra plane launches , going coast to coast on the deck , I haven't seen them before !!

cheers steve , I think I'm finally done with all the hassels .

also got the paravanes together

Nice work, Steve!

Those devices on the deck are temporary structures used to check a ship's balance and stability.  Various weights are placed on them and moved about as part of the checks.   If you look closely at their ends, you'll see weight stacks on carriages on the tracks.  These checks were performed at various times and the equipment used to perform the checks is often seen in shipyard photos taken upon the completion of modifications (especially if the ship's topside got heavier as a result of those modifications).

Kudos to HooYah and CapnMac82 for posting good photos.

Very much enjoying your work!

thankyou MM , I was dreading the scratch build , the help I am getting from the members has been great .

started the next deck up .

a close up of the gas bottles ,

If you want some detail to "snazz" up things, those paravanes have a nift detail. 

In Use the big "wing" runs vertical in the water (it pulls the sweep wire out).  Tha angled bit is where the sweep wire shackles on, and faces the ship.  The lump on the bottom of the "wing" is a lead weight, to keep the thing upright.  The lump on the other side is wood or cork.

And, there's the cool bit, those coark/wood floats were painted Red & green to match the sides of the ship.  The rest of the paravane was typically painted the surrounding ship color--which leaves the color pick down to you.

steve5

cheers steve , I think I'm finally done with all the hassels .

Glad to hear it, Steve!

thanks for that capn , don't know what colour to paint hem yet , but i do want to be able to see them .

got some more work done on the super structure , look's like I need to do some paint work too .

put a bit of railing on while I was able to get my hands in there , just got to keep them away from the railings now . also got some more bits and pieces on .

steve5

don't know what colour to paint hem yet

Black appears to be middling common on capitol ships where they stayed dry near 100% of the time.

It's kind of like the liferafts.  I real life they were rather sloppily painted in place.  Which would look like sloppy modeling if recreated.  Now, life raft would get unstacked and the supplies audited and inspected, and would not necessarily go back where they started.

So, base painting them Panzer Gray can work, then pick out ones in the stacks to be other superstructure colors for variety can give a good look.

cheers capn , black it is then . the red and green should stand out better on them then .

wish I had of thought the various colours mate , I have most of them on now , reluctant to take them off mate .

photos don't show it , but i really made a hash of these two radar units , took ages to get them to look presentable . paint should fix them up .

the rest of the P E added .

For "a hash" that's dang pretty.

Thanks capn, what I meant was , I had to pull it apart a few times to get it right . It's nowhere near perfect , but still looks aright . 

apparently these are the mk37 gun directors for the bofors . there not perfect , but I am very pleased with them .

this part of the deck still is not finished , hopefully next post .

finally got some part of the superstructure done .

but I have a long way to go .

steve5

apparently these are the mk37 gun directors for the bofors

Ah, no, those are for the 5" guns.  They all trunk down to the 200 or 300 deck and are linked to four--one each--fire control computers.  Each of whch had a swichboard so that they could cross-connect to any of the other three Mk 37s, and to any combination of the ten 5"/38 mounts.

The Bofors used the Mk 51 Director.  Which was a pedastle mounted sight wth shoulder harness for the operator.  The Mk 51 could be linked to from 1 to 5 40mm mounts.  Those go in a round tub typically very close to a 40mm mount.  Each Mk 51 had a Fire Controlman operator, and a talker in the tub.

The only guns w/o mechanical directors are the 20mm mounts; but, they generally had a alker and a "position" or "gallery" commander, to spot targets for the group of 20mm mounts whch were often manned by clerks, messmen, and the like.

cheers for that capn , as you no doubt have worked out , my knowledge on these ships is limited .

the rear funnel PE work is done.

Hey Steve, checking in and wow, nice progress. Nice work on the PE sir. Your perseverance is paying off. This will be a beauty when done.

steve5

cheers for that capn , as you no doubt have worked out , my knowledge on these ships is limited .

Hasn't limited your ability to render an exquisite model, though.

For esoterica, radar antennae generate a "field shape" 90º to the antenna geometry.  So a horzontal rectangle 'makes' a vertical rectangle "beam."

This is neatly captured in the Mk 37 director radar.  The double-lobed antenna is double-lobed to reduce length over all, and gives a sweep beam in plan orientation.  The "banana" antenna to the side makes a horizontal beam lobe, which allows identifying things in vertical height.

After the war, when they went to the circular antenna, the whole dish was used for both plan and height scanning, by pivoting the antenna vertically.

Additionally number of targeting (as apposed to search) radar antenna are spun to give a "reflection" pause.  That allows time for the signal to go out to the target and return back, without havng to switch high voltages on and off rapidly.  A serious issue in the days of vacuum tubes.

man the stuff you guys had to study , way out of my pay grade , but i still love to hear it capn . hopefully some of it will stick , 

the fore funnel PE done .

steve5

man the stuff you guys had to study

Yeah, pretty much everything, at least an inch or two deep.  Engineering, Navigation, Supply, Gunnery, the works.  Even some Aviation

Especially if a person was in Operations, as I was.

better man than me capn 

the catapults are ready for paint .

got the radar dish done ,

wasn't so fortunate with the crane , on the last fold and glue  , I somehow managed to squash the tip end , I straightened it out as best as I could , will have to see how it comes up after paint and in position , might have to use the kit supplied one  .

bit more fiddly word done on the main tower .

time to put some paint on this baby .

Hey Steve, the PE antenna assembly looks awesome. Nice work Mate! It is coming together nicely.

cheers steve , really appreciate the comments .

the bridge painted .

the forward funnel , this was a lot of sub assemblies to make a sub assembly .

 the rear funnel , with mast

steve5

the bridge painted .

the forward funnel , this was a lot of sub assemblies to make a sub assembly .

Looking good.
And an excellent example of needing reference photos--lid of Iowa's conning tower was given deck grey paint, ut not Missouri.

Here's what the flying bridge greeblies look like at 1:1

And, presently, at Pearl:

This may be Iowa--but the WWII towers had plain slits:

The boxes are part of changes added after the war:

Still, splendid stuff.

Looks great!

For enjoyment and comparison, here are some wartime and immediate post-war USS Missouri bridge reference photos for you:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016326c.jpg

http://navsource.org/archives/01/063/016329.jpg

For fun, here's a wartime photo of sistership New Jersey taken after her "round bridge" was modified to look very much like Missouri's "square bridge".

http://navsource.org/archives/01/062/016293.jpg

Here's a wartime photo of sistership USS Wisconsin:'s bridge and conning tower:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016421.jpg

thanks for that M.M. , they really were alike , would have liked to have seen them in colour , just to see how far off I was .

not through war time , but I would have liked to have gone for a spin in something that big and graceful .

been a bit since I have posted , so I started to glue the super structure together . lots still to go on it , but it's looking alright .

the reason for said delay .

Ut oh, a toe licker.  That will keep you busy, should make a great bench buddy

steve5

the reason for said delay .

 

Ah, an indisputale reason for many delays, interruptions, and new-found havoc.

But, also uncomparable joy, fun, and fulfillment in life, too

(Your forward Mk 37 is pointing aft, which is a legitimate train angle for the director, ut might be confusing for casual viewers.)

Dang, glad MM dug up those navsource photos--even if it make be look less-smart.  References rule!

Thanks capn , you will have to excuse my mistake , I did know it was back to front , but it had been glued for a few days , before I realised it , and it was too fragile to try and unglue it .

Hey Steve, the superstructure looks awesome. It is nice and tight. This will be an excellent ship for display.

Congrats on the Puppy! Looks like a cutie...

thanks steve , he wasn't too cute the other night , ate through the wires on my wi-fi .

the rear funnel amd A and B turrets on , still lots to go .

steve5

thanks steve , he wasn't too cute the other night , ate through the wires on my wi-fi .

Yes my friend. That is the other side of the coin. You better batten down the hatches for the next several years.

 Nice work, Steve. Looking real good.

Super work on this battlewagon!

It's astonishing, to me who is forever screwing up PE on ship models, how you have managed to get yours done so nicely. Just that round radar would have driven me up the wall!

steve5

ate through the wires on my wi-fi .

Sigh.

Cat5 network cable
Power supply wire for the laptop
Boxes of tool bits
Shoes
Bits of wood off the wood pile
Was a never ending story

Spent a minor fortune at Petsmart getting chew toys and kong and getting treat to stuff in toys and kong that directed the chewing . . .

Luckily, already had skills for crimping on Cat5 connectors (and bulk supply of cable) and eBay has come to the rescue for power supplys & cables for same.

Been a couple of years to get to equalibrium.  And, still toys get moved around.

Been lesser days and greaters ones--would not trade them for the "now" though.

Mind the minor terror is currently napping on my foot, too . . .

cheers for that mike , mind you I have a few rungs carved into my wall mate .

starting to find out what you mean capn , spent a minor fortune on chew toys , and his favourite ones are my waste basket , which is now on top of my desk , and my big toes .

was about to move forward , when I realised i hadn't done the baskets . which gave all sorts of problems trying to glue up , when I remembered about soldering . much easier .

there are two different sizes .

and lots of different stands for them .

most of the superstructure is complete , will finish the rest at the end . 

starting to look like a battleship now .

Sweet! You are almost there. Looking great, Steve.

cheers steve , but I do have a loooonng way to go yet mate .

the carriges for the catapults . 

sorry about the quality of the pics .

Looking great! Crazy to see it's so big the diamo plate under the AA is visible 

steve5

was about to move forward , when I realised i hadn't done the baskets . which gave all sorts of problems trying to glue up , when I remembered about soldering . much easier .

Ah, "floater nets."  Bane of sailors and modelers (and museum ship curators) alike.

A 12 x 12 rope net with 3" (c.) lines at 12" on center both ways, with a mix of oakum and cork (and some balsa) disks at 24" on center both ways.

These were piled into the baskets per a schedule, so some of the "double size" baskets got three instread of two. 

The baskets had to be perforated so that they would not hold water (which was not good for the ropes or the floaty discs).

The nets were held in entirely by gravity, as any lashing would prevent their deployment in a sinking.  Which meant that any green water over the desck was like to carry the nets away.  Or gale force winds.

Not loved much by contemporary sailors, either, as they needed to be taken out and dried in the sun, and all the bits inspected for rot or damage.  And, naturally, the things were a tanglefoot on deck, which also drifted around on deck.

Getting the PE for the things to behave is quite the achievement.  The parts usually want a lot of annealing before bending, and solder is probably the only sensible fixant.

Bravo.

cheers capn , love your insight into sailor life .

the turrets mainly done ,

the barrels and blast bags , just did not fit together , a lot of sanding was required .

Turrets looking good. Seems a person cant get away from fit issues, even on the bigger scale models. Sad.

True Steve,  but on the whole , the fit has been excellent . 

That is good to hear, Steve. 

cheers steve .

all the guns have been added .

and my new bench buddy , ralph , hard at work , earning his keep .

the scout planes and captains barge are done .

Coining a new internet thing.... WOL... which stands for Wow out loud!  What a treat for the eyes.  Which seaplanes are those?  Almost look like bearcats.  Fantastic work.

Cheers keavdog , appreciate your kind comments .

As far as l know , they are seahawks , 

the aft and bow gangways are done , I hope that is what they are called .

steve5

the aft and bow gangways are done , I hope that is what they are called .

 

"Accommodation Ladder" is the term-of-art.

)You missed a fold on the david falls on the forward ladder--pontos loves folding things o_O.)

As a matter of practice, you rig out at least one Boat Boom per Ladder over the side.

There's an order of prescendce involved.  The after Ladder serves the "quarterdeck" and recieves officers and official visitors to the ship.
The forward ladder is used by elnlisted personnel for liberty calls and the like.

With that much boat traffic, the boat booms are rigged out to "park" them between trips. The booms follow the ladders, too--enlisted crew boats go to the forward boom; gigs & barges & officer transport go to the after one.  (This allows being able to see people coming to the after ladder.)

Depending on how the ship rides to anchor or mooring, the booms are often set "offset"--as in forward to port and after to starboard.  That allows the oat crews to skylark between trips on the "less brass" side.

Rigging to the same side is easier to model, if still a considerable pain.

Additional note--with accomodation ladders over the side, additional life rings are stowed near the ladder in case of mishap (they are a bouncy sort of affair).  There will be coils of natural fiber line for life-saving use.  Occasionally a section of Boarding net will be nearby, too (likely over near the over-the-side lifeboat davits).

These are the sorts of details the Department Head and Division Officers have to know for these things.  Is that above and beyond average modeler--perhaps.

thanks capn , only just saw the fold I missed , will get to it after this post .

yes i'm afraid netting is above my pay grade , 1/200 is just too small ,  this is the best I can do . but I think it made for a better build , cheers .

david falls fold fixed , try saying that 3 times fast .

"david falls fold fixed , try saying that 3 times fast ."    

bautiful additions!

It looks cool Steve. I like it.

thankyou gentlemen .

steve5

yes i'm afraid netting is above my pay grade , 1/200 is just too small , this is the best I can do . but I think it made for a better build , cheers .

Ah, an oops.  The life rings (which are off wite/pale gray in wartime) are tied off on the lifelines abaft the rigged ladders.  You would marline (rop yarn strand) them to the inboard side of the life lines.

Line for rescue would be flaked out

also inboard of the lifelines--it will be small stuff, no more than 3/4" line, and only about 15-16 fathoms' worth (you can't heavy line much further than that).

The netting would be something a person might could do with extremely fine gause--but would be way back aft between the lifeboat davits, where there's no railing.  It would be rolled to perhaps a foot in diameter and the width of the davits long, and bound in marline.

The "book" method for coping with "gone in" incidents is to have a 26' motor whaleoat in the water already--especially if reciving dignitaries, or taking abboard Liberty parties.

Those accomodation ladders are skinny, barely a couple of feet and as rickety as your neighbor's extension ladder.  So, users are on their own until reaching the deck edge.

They dance around at the best of times.  Have the boat at the bottom give them a good bump, and it's like going to the rodeo.

All while trying to maintain a seaman-like bearing.  So, you are focused more on getting to the top platform and Saluting the Colors before turning to the OOD manning the Quarterdeck.