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Lindberg HMS KGV and Questions

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  • Member since
    June 2021
Lindberg HMS KGV and Questions
Posted by Ajidica on Thursday, June 3, 2021 1:52 PM

I'm pretty new to model making, and for my first model I was making a 1/750 Lindberg HMS King George V as it looked pretty straight forward. Unfortunately, I didn't think things through far enough and I assembled the entire kit before painting (this will lead into my questions). I was doing brush painting and the model doesn't seem to want to come together - brush strokes are pretty visible and paint seemed uneven thickness (I am using a combination of Tamiya and some PolyScale acrylics). I'm wondering if I am using too thick of paint, but my experience in my teenage years with warhammer figures is that thicker paint helped keep the paint in place. I suspect some of my issues with visible brush strokes is having to use a tiny brush to get around the obstructions I put in my place by not painting sub assemblies first.

I also have a 1/700 Pit Road/Dragon of the Soviet Destroyer Udaloy I picked up when getting paints, and assembled the entire thing before painting which is going to be a massive issue. I have a 1/700 Dragon model of the nuclear battleship Kirov I intended to use the Udaloy as practice for.

 

Questions:

1. For the KGV I used a can of spray primer - the hobby store not appearing to have any brush primer - and while it worked great, I'm not sure how well it will work when I am priming sub assemblies individually. I can mask around the deck and hull with tiny bits of tape for the major sub assemblies, but I'm not sure how to approach it with sub assemblies. I need to keep primer off attachment points so the glue can go plastic-plastic, but if I put on too many of the smaller details that increasingly defeats the point of doing sub assemblies first where I can avoid having to work around details. That leads to two questions"

1a. Do enamel paints work well as a primer coat for subsequent acrylic layers? It strikes me that brush painting the primer can give me better control over where the primer goes and avoid overspray I need to scrape off later. (A situation I'd rather avoid as I lost two pieces on the Udaloy when scraping sprue lines and they went to feed the carpet monster!) I've seen some posts around here that appear to indicate I shouldn't mix paint types as they can react with each other when layered.

1b. For the tiny details, if they are to be applied after painting the sub assemblies, do you guys just make really sure to mask around the attachment points, or do you use super glue/white glue instead of plastic glue?

2. What type of tape should I use for masking? I know there is specific model maker tape, but that seems a little pricey given how much of it I need per model. For the camo pattern on the KGV I used normal 3M tan masking tape, and that worked well enough but had some bleed problems with painting.

3. Possibly related to waiting to the end to paint, but I seem to have a big problem with the KGV hull attracting fingerprints to a level I don't remember with my warhammer models (which were also painted with acrylics, Reaper I believe). What is a good way to cut down on finger printing?

4. What advice do you have for brush painting in general? It seems a lot of the people on youtube use airbrushes, but living in a 2 room apartment I don't have a lot of space.

5. The Udaloy (and Kirov) are waterline models, and I'm slightly stumped on how to get the white waterline stripe present on Soviet warships without it looking ridiculously oversized. Or is this a situation where I should get the ultra-fine model tape. (Paint the general area white, mask, then paint over with hull color.)

6. I was planning on uploading some pictures to help you in giving feedback, but the insert image button only seems to accept links, not direct upload. Is this an aspect to me not having a community account long enough, or do I need to use an external hosting service? (If external service, what ones do you guys prefer?)

 

Many thanks!

  • Member since
    June 2021
Posted by Ajidica on Saturday, June 12, 2021 3:33 PM

Anyone?

 

I'd especially like some advice on brush-painting as I'me having problems with the paint going on nicely on the Udaloy. It seems to take multiple layers of paint to get a nice even coat, but then I loose a lot of the fine molded details. And as always, avoiding brush marks.

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Saturday, June 12, 2021 3:43 PM

what paint are you using , tamiya can be a pain to brush paint , you have to thin it first .

 

  • Member since
    August 2014
  • From: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posted by goldhammer on Saturday, June 12, 2021 3:45 PM

There are some threads on brush painting down in the painting/airbrush page further down.  I know they have discussed Tamiya paints.

As to posting photos, you need to put on a third party site.  Several to choose from, and you can find them discussed as well.  I use Imageshak, but it's a pay site.  But the price is decent for what I need and is easy for me to use.

  • Member since
    June 2021
Posted by Ajidica on Saturday, June 12, 2021 4:21 PM

Thanks guys!

I guess my google-fu was failing me. All I was finding on thinning paints down seemed to be in the context of airbrushing, and they were talking about using fancy paint thinners. I was under the impression acrylics could be thinned out using a little bit of water. Looks like I need to create a thread in the painting sub forum.

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Towson MD
Posted by gregbale on Saturday, June 12, 2021 4:36 PM

As a broad rule, brush-painting with Tamiya acrylics requires thinning of the paint and possibly the use of a drying retarder as well, to prevent the paint in the jar or cap from 'skinning over' as you work. (Their own X-20A thinner already includes a bit of the retarder.) It will probably also require several coats to get good coverage...which isn't usually necessary when airbrushing the brand.

For brush-painting in general, thin coats are better. Brushing thick coats is more likely to cause uneven drying which may look 'lumpy' even if brush strokes per se don't show.

The absence of brushstrokes in brush painting has more to do with technique than the paint you use...though the latter can certainly affect your results. Keys for brush-painting are even coverage...resisting the temptation to work back into areas you've already covered...and patience. If you need extra coats for proper coverage, that's just the way it works out. Let your first coat set up before trying the next.

As for masking, I've had excellent results over the years with Tamiya's line of yellow tapes. They're very low-tack to start with...but I will often lay a piece of tape along the inside of my forearm to pick up just a bit of skin oil, which doesn't seem to affect adhesion at all but makes it that much easier to peel away when done

It's also a good general practice to remove your masking as quickly as is reasonably possible. If it can be done while the last layer still has a bit of 'give' -- granted, rather a subjective call -- there's less chance of your paint flaking or chipping as the masking is removed.

That having been said...I've left masking on for months, while spraying an 'interrupted' Swedish Viggen 'crazy quilt' camouflage scheme, and still had those old tape bits come off whistle-clean, so it can be done.

Greg

George Lewis:

"Every time you correct me on my grammar I love you a little fewer."
 
  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, June 12, 2021 4:48 PM

Do you have access to a yard or driveway where you can carry your odel out in a box and attack it with a spray can. I did that for years and still set up my spray booth out back as much as possible.

For small scale kits such as yours, I'd get as much painting done as I can, otherwise you'll lose detached parts.

Certainly prime on the sprues, in my opinion.

Take the sprues, or the sprue diagrams if the kit came with those, and make photo copies.

Come up with a plan of attack for the basic colors. Gray and lots of it. If the bottom is separate, red. 

Paint the deck color with a brush. If you are careful, you can make nice "cuts" at horizontal/ vertical joints. In fact some people will run a knife tip around the base of blobs on the deck to get a better paint transition.

for me, the key to brush painting is to use thin coats. Once a brush mark, always a brush mark.

 

Love to see photos, I use Fotki.

 

Bill

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Saturday, June 12, 2021 5:10 PM

For fingerprints, thin eleastic gloves (laytex or non-laytex) can help (can't leave a fingerprint whe nthe ridges are coverd.).

As to paints, there are all sorts of advise that are brand specific.

When the Tamiya paints first came out, they were ieal for brush painting, but needed 66% thinning for airrush use.  That was 40 years' ago, and not really appropriate anymore.

Now, the "why" of using using Tamiya masking tape is that's it's really fine and thing material.  Whic hwill help as you will likely need elebenty kajillion bits with one straight edge each to mask against railings and bulkheads.  (Being able to use an entire inch of tape can feel like a huge victory.)

Subassemblies are the real way forward, as you have already learned.

Glue used can vary depending on what the parts have "bare." and how much might show from glue run off/out.  Which is where a PVA like the MiG glue can be your friend.  As will a full battery of various viscosities of super glue.

Thst Soviet boot stripe will vex.  The "how" is often to use a rough tape to get "close" to the right line, then use a finer tape to actually hit it.

Best paint is not going to be white, but a very pale gray, like light ghost, sky tpe S or similar.

From Memory (always fickle) the Udaloy will have rather a lot of "russet leather" colored linoleum decks, just to complicate your build.  Tamiya Hull Red is a decent match.

  • Member since
    June 2021
Posted by Ajidica on Saturday, June 12, 2021 10:12 PM

Thanks guys!

I was working on the decking of the Udaloy and noted that Tamiya thinned with a bit of water helped it go on much better. Will need to do another layer or two to even it out a bit.

 @gregbale: I've definitely learned my lesson with patience! Such as figure out how everything goes together and what needs to be what color before you cut a single sprue.

With regards to masking, how does watering down the paint interact with the tape seal? When I was using straight from bottle Tamiya with your standard tan masking tape, I was getting a little bit of bleed. I presume a thinner paint will result in more bleed.

@gmorrison: I have a small balcony I can use. Used grey tamiya spray primer for the battleship and a model of a SR71 Blackbird I found in my old closet in my parents house. Decided I should finish up the Udaloy before starting any more projects. The spray primer ran out on me so I ended up priming the Udaloy with white enamel.

 

@capnMac82:  I thought about using Tamiya hull red for the anti-slip surfaces, but based on pictures I've seen it strikes me as a little more orange. Ended up using Linoleum Deck Brown (XF-79).

As far as pictures, HMS King George V in a sort-of realistic camo. Ended up looking more like German Baltic camo than I would like.

 

As far as the Udaloy, it is a work in progress (and I have conclusively learned my lesson of sub assemblies, paint, then assemble!). I would like your feedback on the grey used for the hull. I've seen some photos of the Udaloy (or other soviet warships) in a two-tone grey, and would like to use that to avoid the ship turning into a grey blob when sitting on the shelf. I initially used a dark grey for the hull, but with the anti-slip red decking turning out darker than I realized, I'm wondering if the ship is getting to dark. I mocked up a quick medium grey hull on the other side of the ship. Pictures taken under direct light.

Dark hull.

 

Medium hull.

 

And for indirect lighting:

Medium

 

Dark:

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Towson MD
Posted by gregbale on Sunday, June 13, 2021 3:53 AM

Ajidica

With regards to masking, how does watering down the paint interact with the tape seal? When I was using straight from bottle Tamiya with your standard tan masking tape, I was getting a little bit of bleed. I presume a thinner paint will result in more bleed.

Bleed can definitely be a bit more of a problem with thinned and/or brush painting. Good practice is to take the rounded end of a brush handle and use it to burnish down all along your tape edge to make sure you've got a nice firm seal, then do a light/thin-line brush of your paint parallel to your tape edge (rather than 'into' it) to 'set' your paint edge before painting in the larger areas.

Some folks also like to seal the masked edge first with a layer of clear, then paint over that to virtually eliminate creep under the tape. It's a particularly useful technique on clear aircraft canopies, and anywhere there's masking around fiddly stuff like deck detail on ships.

Great work on both ships, BTW. Both look to be shaping up nicely.

Cheers

Greg

George Lewis:

"Every time you correct me on my grammar I love you a little fewer."
 
  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Sunday, June 13, 2021 5:50 PM

Ajidica
, I'm wondering if the ship is getting to dark.

At sea, the Sovs all looked pale gray until you got reall close.  They were really monochrome other than the linoeum decks.  Darker than USN Hull Gray, much lighter then USN Deck Gray.

From 350 feet away?  A person could go real light and be legit.  Mind, with the sun behind them, they appeared much darker somehow.

That Soviet Gray was very much neither "warm" nor "cold" not a trace of red or blue in it at all (which is probably why it's such a pain to model).

Almost as bad as French Navy Gray, which I swear has a green tinge.

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