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Linberg's Captain Kidd - Wappen Von Hamburg FINAL

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  • Member since
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  • From: Madison, Mississippi
Linberg's Captain Kidd - Wappen Von Hamburg FINAL
Posted by Donnie on Sunday, January 8, 2006 1:20 AM

This post will start the building of Linberg's "Captain Kidd" a.k.a. "Wappen Von Hamburg" for those that want to follow or are just curious.

Thanks for visiting

Donnie

01-06-06

I pulled out the Linberg's Captain Kidd or by some refered to as the Wappen Von Hamburg. I guess the reason is that I really enjoyed that Linberg Jolly Roger aka Le Flore. I am in process of choosing the color schemes.
I started to read those directions and I can't believe some of the color scheme that they are wanting me to use on the deck. Red !  Also, I notice that while the directions are much clearer than the JR aka Le Flore that I just finished, the colors that they want you to do on the Linberg Captain Kidd is quite strange.
If anyone has done the Linberg's Captain Kidd, I could use a few tips on what paint colors you used for what main parts (Deck, Hull, I can handle the rest). If not, then that is ok as well. I can decide on my own - no biggy !

I just got "The young sea officer's sheet anchor by Darry Lever and I must say that this is quite a compilation of very techy drawings. It seems very nice as I have only skimmed over so far.

Back to the WVH - I noticed that on what very few ships out there, it seems that dark green for the upper sides of the hull. I know that I can get close, but just curious as to what color others has used on this.  Of what I can tell these Testors might work:
1) Medium Field Green / FS34095   
2) European Geen / FS 34092
3) Forest Green / FS 34127
The directions just say green and they say "look at carton of box" but the box has no green to be found. ( I thought this to be a little funny)

Right off the bat, there are alot of weird things with the directions and colors schemes. I don't think
that I will be painting my deck red as the directions say. I have no idea (as usual) as to what color to choose for the deck here. If anyone gets in on this, it would be helpful to tell me what Testors or Model Masters Color to use.

I know that alot of folks here use various techniques to produce what they want. I am not quite there yet as I still like the simple route I guess (for now).

I did pick up some flat gray primer to paint the larger parts - you all should be proud of me for at least doing this ( I am learning - you know ) - hey with the first one, I just started painting even though it took like 6 coats of white paint before that chocolate colored hull of the JR would not show thru. I thought this time, I would start with a primer and see what happens.
Nope - I do not have an airbrush. Still using brush by hand -

Again, I would like to express my gratitude for those that have given me direction and motivation to help me with that Jolly Roger aka Le Fore. 

Donnie

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 8, 2006 4:20 AM
 Donnie wrote:
I pulled out the Linberg's Captain Kidd or by some refered to as the Wappen Von Hamburg. I guess the reason is that I really enjoyed that Linberg Jolly Roger aka Le Flore.
I started to read those directions and I can't believe some of the color scheme that they are wanting me to use on the deck. Red ! 


I am not an expert on the subject. However, what I have red is as follows: red color was sometimes used along the inner sides since in battles bloody crew members were not that uncommon.

Would be interesting to hear whether it is legend or myth or does it have any realism?

Regards,
Katzennahrung
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 8, 2006 4:29 AM
 Donnie wrote:

I did pick up some flat gray primer to paint the larger parts - you all should be proud of me for at least doing this ( I am learning - you know ) - hey with the first one, I just started painting even though it took like 6 coats of white paint before that chocolate colored hull of the JR would not show thru. I thought this time, I would start with a primer and see what happens.
Nope - I do not have an airbrush. Still using brush by hand -
Donnie


Maybe as a note and not directly related to you white paintings: I am used to pre-paint my parts with wood color. It is easier then to get some wheatering: I apply a second paint layer (the color I want at the parts) and let it dry. Then I start mildly sanding at some places and it looks like I had sanded wood due to the underlaying "wooden" surface.

White paints are harder to get right. But if you want a weathered look it is not really essential to get a white area genuine white.

Btw: I state that an aibrush (though never used any) is not that important when assembling historic sailing ships. When you start scrutinizing your kit further you will see that the manufactures tried to simulate wood structure and that kind of details. A brush painting is highly wlecommed and gives likely a more realistic "weathered" look.

 But it is just my opinion.
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Posted by cthulhu77 on Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:34 AM

  Looking forward to this build, Donnie !   I don't use an airbrush on smaller ship kits at all...rattlecans and brushes work much better.

    Instead of using just one type of green, I would recommend using all three in different areas...the wood of the ships took the paint in different ways, and the multi-hue effect is quite realistic.

   Red decks? They were just going for the kids with that one...go with the standard wood deck, though painting the rails red might be a nice touch.  Only problem there is, you end up with a "christmas tree" effect (red and green).  Maybe black would be better.

   Regarding decks...since you have primed the plastic, it is really easy to do a woodgrain finish. Pick up some coloured pencils or pastel pencils at a local art/crafts shop (get a variety pack for about 5 bucks).  Paint the primed deck with rattlecan sand...then flat black...then brown. (thin spray coats). Wait until dry between each coat.  After all of this, take some fine grain sandpaper and lightly sand off the top to expose different colours.  Seal with clear flat.  Attack it with the coloured pencils or pastels, each plank being different.  I use brown, yellow, white, purple, and pink often...you just need to tint the planks, not completely cover them.  Then seal with clear SATIN.   Viola...wood planks.  This sounds like a lot of work, but it really doesn't take too long (mostly in waiting for paint to dry), and you end up with people saying "how come that deck looks like real wood?" alot.

                  pics?

                         greg

http://www.ewaldbros.com
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Posted by jtilley on Sunday, January 8, 2006 8:29 AM

I'm not going to be able to help much with this one.  I know absolutely nothing about the navy of 17th-century Hamburg.  I do know that the Wappen von Hamburg is quite a popular model subject - especially in Europe.  I'm not sure why that's the case.  The fact that there are so many models of her suggests that there's either a good, detailed set of contemporary plans or a good, detailed contemporary model of her in some archive or museum somewhere.  Michel - can you help?

Her overall shape and look are those of a ship-of-the-line, but she usually seems to be referred to as either a "heavy frigate" or a "convoy ship."  Actually that makes sense.  The word "frigate" had a much broader meaning in the mid-seventeenth century than it did later, and I gather she spent most of her career escorting Hamburger merchantmen around the Baltic and North Seas.  I imagine the warship fleet of Hamburg was too small to form a line of battle. 

Taubman Plans Service ( www.taubmansonline.com ) offers a set of plans for this ship, but they're quite expensive.  A Google search, however, turned up a surprising number of references to her.  The best I found is this:  http://www.all-model.com/list1/hamburg/hamburg.html .  It's a set of small-scale, but well-rendered plans.  There are five separate drawings:  a set of hull lines, an overall outboard profile (including sails and rigging), a sail and running rigging plan, a standing rigging plan, and that rarest of all finds:  a belaying point plan.  The originals presumably were in German, and a few of the names of rigging lines are garbled a little.  In general, though, these look like nice drawings - quite useful for this particular project.  They can be printed out directly from the website.

At the top of the page is a button labeled "Heavy frigate 'Wappen von Gamburg [sic]' Free download."  I clicked on that with considerable enthusiasm, but the results weren't satisfactory.  I was invited to save the download to my hard drive, and spent about five minutes waiting for that to happen.  The computer told me it had saved the file, all right, but when I tried to open it I just got a mass of question marks.  I guess I don't have the necessary software program.  I'll try it on the office computer tomorrow.  Maybe a member who's more of a computer whiz than me can help.  (Michel - are your there?)

Since the two sail plans both show the sails set, they also show the yards in their raised positions.  Unless you give the model set sails (which I don't recommend), I strongly recommend putting the yards in their lowered positions.  On board a ship without sails (or with her sails furled), the lower yards, the spritsail yard, and the big lateen yard on the mizzenmast would stay in the positions shown on the drawings.  The fore, main, and mizzen topsail yards would be lowered to a foot or two above the lower mast caps.  The spritsail topsail yard also would be lowered to the cap, and the fore and main topgallants would be lowered to a foot or so above the topmast caps.  People who've spent a lot of time looking at ship models will tell you that a model with lowered yards looks a great deal better.

That Google search turned up quite a few photos of models of the ship.  The quality of those models, however, varies considerably.  (Beware of anything built from a Corel wood kit.  There seems to be a fairly general consensus that of all the continental European plank-on-bulkhead kit manufacturers, Corel is, in terms of historical reasearch, the worst.)  Quite a few photos of Wappen von Hamburg models also are posted over at the Drydock Models website.  The quality of those models also is variable, but they'll give some idea of how other modelers have handled the color scheme.

Darcy Lever's Young Officer's Sheet Anchor is a great source for ship modelers.  Do remember, though, that it deals quite specifically with the British Royal Navy, and dates from the late eighteenth century.  (Some modern reprints contain updates that cover changes in practice through the mid-nineteenth century, and in the merchant service.)  Don't be surprised if Lever's information conflicts with the rigging plans of the Wappen von Hamburg.

I'm inclined to agree with cthulhu about red paint on the decks.  It's not totally inconceivable.  Red was a popular color for interior woodwork on board ships of the period.  (The traditional explanation is that the red was intended to camouflage blood, but recent research has shed doubt on that.  It seems more likely that red paint was simply a good, affordable, reasonably durable and waterproof primer.)  Eighteenth-century British ships often had red orlop decks.  (H.M.S. Victory's orlop is painted red.)  And I think I've bumped into a few other references to red deck planking - especially in continental warships of the seventeenth century.  But the idea of red weather decks in a big ship like the Wappen von Hamburg seems pretty bizarre.  I certainly wouldn't paint the decks of such a model red unless I had considerably more evidence than a Lindberg instruction sheet.

I agree completely with those who say you don't need an airbrush for this sort of work.  I've got an airbrush, but I rarely if ever use it on sailing ships.  (Come to think of it, I rarely use it - period.)  I know some people do like airbrushes for this kind of model, but to my eye an airbrushed finish is simply out of place on a sailing ship.  I also think a good brush technique is an essential part of the arsenal of anybody seriously interested in sailing ship modeling - even if he or she does use an airbrush for some purposes.

Primer isn't necessary to make modern hobby paints stick to styrene.  Using a sprayed coat of grey as a basis for a white finish coat is, however, an excellent idea.  Modern hobby paints give excellent coverage, but covering dark brown plastic with white paint remains a challenge.

There are no "right" or "wrong" shades of color in this part of the modeling world.  (Thank goodness.)  My suggestion would be to take a look at some of those photos of other modelers' Wappen von Hamburgs, and combine their ideas about colors with your own taste.  It may have been established that the ship had dark green trim, but nobody's going to tell you that a particular shade of dark green is "wrong."

You might want to look into the range of acrylic paints sold by Model Shipways (available through Model Expo:  www.modelexpoonline.com ).  Those colors were formulated specifically for sailing ships, by people who knew what they were doing.  The Testor's "Acryl" line also includes some sailing ship colors (including such things as "Hull Tallow," which would look great on the bottom of a ship like this one).  Unfortunately not all Testor's racks include the ship colors.  (The one in my local hobby shop doesn't; the nearest shop with a full range of Testor's colors is more than a hundred miles away.  Sob.)  But if your local dealer has them, they're certainly worth a look.  If not, don't despair.  As you've suggested, the ranges of paints formulated for aircraft, tanks, and cars has plenty to offer the ship modeler.

Hope this helps a little.  Good luck.  That kit has the potential to produce a fine model.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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Posted by Donnie on Sunday, January 8, 2006 12:53 PM

Thank you Mr.Tilley. You replies are always complete with plenty of detailed info !

Donnie Smile [:)]

This time I will remember about the yards being lowered as I will do thm fureled again most likley. Also, thanks for mentioning those links too.

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

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Posted by jtilley on Sunday, January 8, 2006 2:19 PM
Glad to help.  One other thought.  The standard source on rigging ship models of this period is Dr. R.C. Anderson's The Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast.  I don't know how deeply Anderson goes into German practice, but he does consider continental methods at some length.  (The Wappen von Hamburg, to my decidedly non-Germanic eye, has a distinctly Dutch look to her.  I suspect Dutch rigging practices would in general be applicable to her.)  I believe the book is currently available in a low-priced paperback edition from dealers like Model Expo.  Highly recommended.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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Posted by Donnie on Friday, January 13, 2006 9:29 AM
Well, I am way underway with this new project, and since I am doing the cannons first, I notice that I am having to cut each cannon away from the sprue. It is rather messy as the part has alot of heavy plastic that I have to cut away to get the cannons off. This ship has 56 cannons. Some cannon / carriages are already molded as one piece.

Donnie

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

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Posted by Donnie on Sunday, January 22, 2006 10:41 AM
Well underway with the Deck and Cannons:

On the Deck, this is what I done (thanks to everyone that offered suggestions)
3 coats of paint.
First coat used Model Masters #4249 #4 Brown
Second coat used  Model Masters  #4735 Wood
Third, I went back to the brown and painted a few individual planks. Didn't get facy, they will get comvered up again.
Forth coat, used Model Masters #4697 Tan for final coat.
Lightly sanded surfaces to desired effect.

On the Cannons:
I used Testors #1166 Flat Brown for carriages
Testors #1149 Flat Black
Wheels of carriage Floquil #818656  Iron Black (I know it will not get seen, but I enjoyed it Smile [:)]







In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

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Posted by cthulhu77 on Monday, January 23, 2006 8:11 AM

  Great wood graining effect ! This should be a stunning ship !

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Posted by kapudan_emir_effendi on Monday, January 23, 2006 8:31 AM
what I love most of that ship and its companion "jolly roger" is that, apart from being magnificently detailed models, they are perhaps among the most useful sailing hulls ever produced in styrene. jolly roger/vestale is a prime example of the classic 18th century frigate and can be built or converted to represent a frigate of any european nation. Wappen von Hamburg is another fine example of a standart dutch designed 17th century two decker and can be converted into a ship of the any nation save britain and france. they are among my top-ten candidates for most succesful plastic ship kits ever My 2 cents [2c]
Don't surrender the ship !
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Posted by Donnie on Monday, January 23, 2006 1:42 PM
Found problem with Cannon-carriage assembly for those that are interested in this in the future.  I found that according to the directions, two cannons should be outfitted at the front of ship, however both will not fit (even though one cannon is smaller). I found that the mounting hole is placed too far back and it interfers with the placements. Below is an image that I edit to show problem. Later I plan to most likely not to drill a hole, but to remove the mounting pin on bottom of carriage and find another way to mount assembly.


In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

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Posted by Donnie on Thursday, January 26, 2006 6:25 PM
I know that there are spots that need some touch up paint from the sanding, but the emphasis is on the 'headboard' (green, gold, and brown)- sorry, but don't know the nautical terms.



In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

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Posted by jtilley on Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:37 PM

Looks mighty nice so far.  This kit - unlike any of the smaller Revell or Airfix ones - gives the viewer that distinctive view of the row of guns, complete with carriages.  When the model's finished, you'll be able to look through the stern windows and get a "sailor's eye view" of each deck.

The part in the lower picture is called (in English; I have no idea of the German term for it) the beakhead bulkhead.  (The beakhead is the little bit of the lower deck that projects ahead of the beakhead bulkhead.)  The one in the upper picture (assuming the photo is taken looking aft) is the rail at the break of the quarterdeck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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Posted by Donnie on Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:27 PM
Thank you Mr. Tilley.

I meant to include the paint that I used for people that might be interested:
On the Beakheads (bulkheads):
Model Masters #4235 Flight Deck Brown for brown trim
Model Masters #1764 Euro Dark Green For main wood panels
Testors #1144 Gold for ornaments figures

I ran test color strips to decide which green I liked. The green is a like a blend of pine green and blue green. I like it myself.

Donnie

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

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Posted by cthulhu77 on Friday, January 27, 2006 12:44 AM
  Looking VERY good !  Like the colour choices, too...really set off from each other, for good contrast...
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Posted by Donnie on Sunday, January 29, 2006 10:37 AM
More Deck Photos - continue using same paints as metioned before.






In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

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Posted by millard on Sunday, January 29, 2006 10:56 AM

Donnie

Everything looks great.Are you going to put any rigging on the cannon?Or will that be to difficult when you put it in the hull?

Rod

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Posted by Donnie on Sunday, January 29, 2006 11:24 AM
To answer your question honestly - I hate to say this, but at present, I do not know anything about rigging a cannon unless I do some research on some books that I have purchased recently under the advice of Mr. Tilley.
Another point is that I am afraid that it would be too tedious task to perform since it is so tiny of parts. I am sure that it can be done, however, but I think about the law of dimishing returns if I were to undertake rigging of the cannons.
To agree with your point, as a matter of fact, I did entertain that idea ! Approve [^]
As I am thinking about it, your are correct in that some of the cannons will be exposed more. I am still thinking about that Jolly Roger with all the cannons hid mostly.
I might give it some more thought !

Thank you
Donnie

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

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Posted by Donnie on Sunday, January 29, 2006 9:19 PM
I have studied this Hull and I do not know what to do about the color scheme. I have seen several pictures on the net about the hull in general, but I am at a loss.

The Hull on this boat requires a little different scheme that what I have done so far.

If any one has any suggestions, I would take the advise.

I have the letters A - J showing which ones I need to decide.

Thanks a bunch
Donnie



In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

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Posted by jtilley on Sunday, January 29, 2006 9:31 PM

There's plenty of justification for just about any approach to the rigging of the guns on a model like this.  The old British "Board Room" models rarely if ever include such gear.  (Many of them don't have guns at all - and the ones on the others are usually pretty crude.)  Some compromise positions are also available.

The basic rigging for a gun of that period generally consisted of four lines.  The breeching was a big, fat rope that led from an eyebolt in the bulwark alongside the gunport, to the breech of the gun, and on to another eyebolt on the other side of the port.  It might be looped around the cascabel (the ball forming the end of the breech) or passed through an eye that was cast into the breech.  The breeching was long enough to let the gun recoil.  Its purpose was to keep the cannon from careening across the deck when it was fired - thereby becoming the proverbial "loose cannon on the gundeck."

The gun was aimed by a pair of train tackles, one on each side, which consisted of a rope running between a couple of blocks.  One block was hooked to an eyebolt in the bulwark beside the gunport; the other was hooked to an eyebolt at the rear of the gun carriage.  Those tackles were also used to run the gun out when it was loaded.

The last line was another tackle that ran between two blocks, one at the center of the carriage's rear axle and the other in the deck several feet behind (i.e., inboard of) the gun.  It was used to run the gun in for loading.  This one generally would be rigged only when the ship was cleared for action.  (They'd be a menace to innocent souls walking along the decks.)

Rigging all those lines for each of the guns on the model would be quite a project - and a wasteful one, since most of the lines wouldn't be visible when the model was finished.  The blocks for the train tackles would have to be really tiny - smaller than any commercially-available aftermarket parts.  A good compromise might be to rig only the breechings, and only rig them on the guns that are visible. 

This sort of thing is far easier to do off the model.  You could make a bunch of eyebolts (we've discussed a quick way to do that before) and make a simple jig (a couple of straight pins shoved into a piece of wood) to ensure that each breeching line is the same length.  Rig the line between the eyebolts and wrap it around the cascabel of the gun.  Drill a couple of holes in the appropriate places in the bulwark.  Glue the gun carriage to the deck, put a drop of superglue on each eyebolt, and shove it into the hole. 

An even simpler trick that might work quite nicely:  drill holes in the bulwark where the eyebolts for the breechings would be and run the breeching lines through the holes.  Put a dollop of superglue on each line where it comes out through the hole.  Let it dry, slice the line off cleanly with a razor blade, and paint.  I haven't tried that, but on such a small scale it might work pretty well.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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  • From: arizona
Posted by cthulhu77 on Monday, January 30, 2006 7:45 AM
  Looking very good, Donnie !  That is going to be a very colourful boat...Have no clue on the hull colours though, sorry.
http://www.ewaldbros.com
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Posted by Donnie on Monday, January 30, 2006 11:20 AM
Thanks everyone (again) for your advise and nice comments. The directions call for the inside hull to be painted red.  Well, I was wondering if this is a common practice in real life. Also the instructions have already given me some pretty wild painting schemes that I disagree with already. This is why I quesiton the red inside wall of hull.
I also found that the directions call for one color while they are saying "please refer to the box cover" and the box cover and the directions conflict with each other.
According to the experts here I have learned that this is a reboxing - but at least I find it entertaining that the two do not match. I feel for the young modeler though.
Doing a google search, I only found one WVH that had what looked like a dark red inside the hull. I do not mind doing it red, but I do like to stay within what is reasonable.  I am sure that a young modeler would love the various colors, but I like to stay more to true.

Thanks,
 Donnie

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

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Posted by jtilley on Monday, January 30, 2006 12:02 PM

The red hull interior is probably correct.  I do have to add the usual caveat:  I've done no reading whatsoever in primary sources about German sailing warships.  But in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries red was a common color for bulwark interiors, bulkheads, and deck furniture of various sorts.

Most of the contemporary models I've seen use a bright, glossy red for that purpose.  Recent research suggests, though, that the real stuff was most likely a dull "red ochre."  Legend has it that the purpose of the red paint was to camouflage blood stains, but that idea has been called into question lately.  It seems more likely that red was simply a cheap, durable, more-or-less weatherproof primer.

Regarding the exterior colors, all I can offer is what seems to have been common practice in other European navies at the time.  It seems to have been customary to treat hull planking with some sort of concoction containing oil, which, if the marine artists of the time are to be believed, produced a rich medium brown.  The wales and rails - the thicker belts, which are B, D, F, H, and J in the photo - show up in paintings as a darker brown, or even black.  There are references in English documents to "tarring" or "blackening" the wales.  (Again, I don't know anything about the German sources.)  Apparently the wales were treated with some thicker, darker finish, partly as a means of protecting them against things that bumped into them.  But I suspect one big reason for making the wales a different color was that contemporary taste thought they looked nice that way - and I happen to think contemporary taste was right.  If I were doing this model I'd paint the "regular" planking (C, E, G, and I) a medium brown, with emphasis on the "wood grain" detail, and the wales and rails a considerably darker shade.

The area marked A in the photo is, of course, the ship's bottom.  We've talked in other threads about the various ways the underwater planking was treated - with either "black stuff," "brown stuff," or "white stuff."  Virtually every contemporary model from this period that I've encountered has a white bottom (if the bottom is planked at all - as many old models aren't).  As we've discussed before, there are lots of ways to represent the various bottom treatments.  In this respect, as in so many others, sailing ship modeling offers far more range for personal taste than most other forms of modeling do.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Madison, Mississippi
Posted by Donnie on Monday, January 30, 2006 12:37 PM
Thank you Mr. Tilley. This is very good info. Thanks again for your timely advice !

Smile [:)]
Donnie

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Madison, Mississippi
Posted by Donnie on Monday, February 6, 2006 10:08 PM
I do not have any pics of my hull as of yet becuase I have successfully ruined my hulls due to not liking my color schemes Sigh [sigh] and doing it over and over again.

I thought about posting some images of what I did have, but I am sure that everyone would get a decent laugh - hey won't hurt my feelings - I thought it looked funny myself. I just have all that wasted time.

However, I am happy now with what I am going to do and it is funny how it turned out. I happen to go into my living room where my wife was watching TV and for about 5 seconds I saw a ship from the side that looked very simular to the hull "style" that I was doing and I liked the darkness of the ship sides and I remembered what I saw and went to my little workbench and pulled out my colors swatches. I was able to get a scheme that I liked just by happen chance !

I do not know what program my wife was watching february 06, 2006 at about 8:00 CST or a little after, but it helped me alot. I think it was on AMC.  I can go back to the channel guide I guess and look it up.

But, what I did was that used that Testors Spray again (except flat black sray) and sprayed the whole hull flat black. [the other half of the hull is ruined] the other half has not been touched.

The Testors Spray Flat black is GREAT - I did not have the experience with the Flat Black Spray like I did the Gray Flat Spray. I was able to paint over the Flat Black in about 1 hour with NO problems at all.
I am keeping the raised (wales ?) Flat Black and painting the rest a #4235 Mahagony Flight Deck Brown.  I will stay with the Euro Green for upper deck. For the lower hull I am using the same brown with a final coat of lighter #4735 Wood color. I will go back and use the sanding technique for the lower hull to reveal the planking.

I will show some pics. I am rather excited now, but it took some discouragement to get this far. 
Smile [:)]

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

  • Member since
    January 2006
  • From: istanbul/Turkey
Posted by kapudan_emir_effendi on Saturday, February 11, 2006 9:17 AM

Don't mind Donnie, I'm eagerly waiting to see the pictures of the hull. I'm learning a great deal from you for quick and nice plastic sailer building !

cheers

Don't surrender the ship !
  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Madison, Mississippi
Posted by Donnie on Saturday, February 11, 2006 9:40 PM
Thank you - as a matter of fact, I have finally decided on what I want to do with the hull scheme.

I used Testors Flat Black Spray - just srayed about 2 coats - dries fast.
I used  Model masters #4235 Mahogony Flight Deck for the upper hull
I used Model Masters #4249 (#4 Brown) starting with the lower Hull.

I am going to use the same technique and color scheme on the lower hull as I did the deck. If you go back to my notes on the deck, you will see the technique there. I show how I am going to start with the lower hull "building it up" with diff layers of paint. Then I will lightly sand down these layers to give the look I want (only on the lower hull - not on the upper)


In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Madison, Mississippi
Posted by Donnie on Sunday, February 12, 2006 10:37 AM
More pics of how I am building up the layers of paint before I sand it.





Thanks for tuning in !

Donnie

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Madison, Mississippi
Posted by Donnie on Sunday, February 12, 2006 2:22 PM
Sanding off final layers of paint.





I will sand more until I get the effect that I want.

I am using Black PowerPlus GatorGrit #220, but any #220 would do I guess.  I am very lightly sanding. Too much sanding will reveal too much of the underlayers. This is the time to really be patient and not get in a hurry. The point is that I am looking for a uniform look.

Thanks for tuning in.
Donnie

In Progress: OcCre's Santisima Trindad Finished Builds: Linbergs "Jolly Roger" aka La Flore Mantua's Cannone Da Costa Americano linberg's "Cptn Kidd" aka Wappen Von Hamburg Model Shipways 1767 Sultana Midwest Boothbay Lobsterboat (R/C)

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