Chatterbox??? What happened to models??

Locked & placed here for public record.

thanks sean

the forum was a better place... before i discouvered the offtopic discussion

QUOTE: I think you hit it dead on the head, there David!! you can't have a warm fuzzy feeling towards someone when you get into a heated debate. you may think you can, but deep down, it doesn't, I noticed it, and pulled away.

How can you not? It's all a matter of personal opinion. If you're willing to put forth your own opinions on a given topic, even more so when the topic or opinion is something you feel very strongly about, either don't post or be prepared to have people disagree. I've been involved in many of these threads, and found them to be enjoyable. True I've gotten quite pi$$3d at some of the replies, but that's just reality, and I accept that. It's a true testament of a character's strength to accept differences of opinions.
Chris, me and you have had such an interaction, yet I feel no ill towards you. It's stupid for people to feel otherwise. You do the person less justice and respect by not acknowledging their right to their own opinions.

The fact that there are allready changes starting to appear can be seen as both a good and bad thing. The prompt response by the administrative team is only testament to the willingness of FSM to please their community members. I can even go so far to say censorship, to a certain degree, is acceptable. However, cencorship of one's ideas and opinions regardless of topic is something I do not agree with.

well, i can see some major changes startin to happen........

QUOTE: Originally posted by Woody Don't you dare Sean! You have done nothing wrong and I highly value your precence here. Don't do it man. Please

well after having a chat with rik and i can see woody on his knees im staying, changed my mind monrad im staying

QUOTE: Originally posted by David Voss A side effect of existance of these topics (even though they're in the OT forums) is they may have set the tone for the rest of the forum or given the wrong impression of the community.

I think you hit it dead on the head, there David!! you can't have a warm fuzzy feeling towards someone when you get into a heated debate. you may think you can, but deep down, it doesn't, I noticed it, and pulled away.

when you find out when someone is totally wrong (according to you) you lose some respect for that person, or at least I did. now that I have pulled back from debates, I hope I will now look at everyone from the same level.

Lawrence is working on the "official" response, but in the meantime I feel that I need to post about this before this discussion gets out of hand.

QUOTE: Originally posted by J-Hulk As I mentioned in my previous post, I rarely peek into, let alone participate in, the politically or religiously charged topics, so I really don't have an idea of how harsh they can get. I can imagine, however, that it must have been pretty harsh to make a strong man like Robert abandon something that he truly loved.

The issue at hand isn't the number of posts someone has or hasn't made. It's not about forum games, word games, polls about how you like your steak, photo-chops, etc.

The underlying issue is the "politically or religiously charged topics". Sure they can be avoided at times, but sometimes well intentioned threads have turned into political or religious debates. These debates have spread from the off topic to the modeling forums in a few instances. A side effect of existance of these topics (even though they're in the OT forums) is they may have set the tone for the rest of the forum or given the wrong impression of the community.

As many of you have made mention of political/religious topics and avoidance of, perhaps the solution is to not tolerate these types of discussions. Something to think about.

Losing anyone, no matter who it is, would be a shame. I don't care if they have one post or 4,000 posts, it makes no difference. To be honest with you I would fear losing the person with one post more because we (the modeling community) will have lost someone who could have discovered what a wonderful hobby we have. I don't know about others here but it's statements about so-and-so being the "best" that really detract from the feeling of community in here. It starts to feel more like nepostism; like there's an exclusive inner circle.

But getting back to the topic at hand, I agree with just about everyone here who said that if a person doesn't want to view, or have an interest in, a particular post then don't go to it! I don't think I have even ONCE gone to the ship building or SciFi forums but just because I don't go there doesn't mean I can say that I feel they should be eliminated. If you don't like the Off Topic forum then don't go into it. It's ultimately your choice.

Eric

QUOTE: Originally posted by seanrgb well i have decided , that because i did a few to many posts the other night and it offended a few people i will be asking david to remove my name from this forum

No please don't sean. I don't care if you get you posts in the forum games, if you think the forum games are fun then go ahead and knock your self out. It ok with me, and by the looks of it its also ok with alot of the other members. We have already lost a good member let us not lose any more.

this has got me thinking, and I also talked to Joe about it earlier today.
Why do I respect other members oppinion!! Is it because of their high number of posts?? No! Its the quality of the posts that matter to me.

I like the OT forum, I don't read / answer the political threads. But without the OT forum I would never have started to chat with guys like Joe, or play Medal of honor with Joe, Steve, Heath, Tim and Joe#2.

I did use the forum games once, but I don't anymore. To me they are like the group builds, some people use them and thats good, but to others like me they take up alot of space in the OT forum. Maybe there could be a sticky thread in the OT forum for Forum games. All the games would be there and not in the OT forum it self, those who wants to play the games can do that, and the rest of us don't have to scroll down 1/2 page to find the topics that we want to read.

Like I said, I don't care how people get their post numbers, I have been here long enough to know who I want to listen to.

i'm suffering a fantasy here.......& will share ........if i may be so bold..........
..........i'm sitting at my work bench...working on a project.....deeply engrossed.....concentrating...........focused......frustrated now........
see....????????
i've got this problem with this kit and some fit problems.........and i've been working on it ........and working on it .........from numerous angles.......for numerous hours.......& it's makeing me more and more frustrated......the harder i try to fix it.......and the harder i try to fix it the more and more i get frustrated........
..........so, i sit back and don't like the way i'm feeling about this frustration....so, you know what i'm gonna do ????????...........
take a break.........
i'll come back to this fit problem when i'm "feeling" less...........

Don't you dare Sean! You have done nothing wrong and I highly value your precence here. Don't do it man. Please

well i have decided , that because i did a few to many posts the other night and it offended a few people i will be asking david to remove my name from this forum

QUOTE: Originally posted by fightnjoe whether the off topic forum stays or goes is not really the issue. the sense of family has taken a serious hit. how can we get this feeling back? how can we repair what damage has been done? joe

Damage? If they do away with or censor content of the OT the hit to community will alway taint this place. We are indeed treading on thin ice.
At this point it occurs to me that some people have used Robert as a sort of poster boy for censorship or an out right banning of the OT forum. How will Robert ever be able to come back and feel a sense of community after being put in the spot light? I truly am hopeful he will return and wish this thing will be dropped before it gets any worst. Why not just make the OT visable only to those who are interested in it? It's being done with the testers forum.

whether the off topic forum stays or goes is not really the issue. the sense of family has taken a serious hit. how can we get this feeling back? how can we repair what damage has been done?

i am not sure of a soution that would appeal to all. maybe small things.

joe

QUOTE: I do agree about one thing, though: if a person doesn't want to get involved in OT stuff, then they shouldn't come to the OT forum.

Absolutely dripping with truth. That's why I like your posts J-Hulk.
This forum, like any other forum found on the net, is a gathering place with a general area of interest, where members can come and speak about their experiences regarding said interest. However, it is still a forum, and one populate by people, whom naturally cannot speak of one thing 100% of the time. It's the little things that actually build a community. I don't think I'd frequent this site as much as I do were it STRICTLY regarding modeling, and nothing more. I've been visiting the site for a long time prior to joining the forum community. I did not join because people were obsessed with only one thing. Don't get me wrong. I love our hobby, and love the fact that I have a place to speak to people about it. But that's just it, I want to speak to people ABOUT it, not just speak of it concerning techniques, facts, etc. The fact that we are free to indulge in conversations that may not strictly adhere to modeling is what actually builds our comminuty, as we learn about the people behind the hobbyists.

QUOTE: Some of the blame for the proliferation of meaningless posting is with FSM Administration for promoting extreme posting with the Off Topic Forum, the Forum Games there-in, & now the equally meaningless Chatter Box Award.

I have to disagree. True, some of these do promote meaningless posts, but post-whores (relax, it's just a term, for lack of a better one) are a natural fact of forums. Some people are just interested in getting a higher rank, and some are not. Face it, accept it, and move on. This is still a great place to be.

It saddens me greatly to hear of Robert's decision to leave FSM. He is a great guy who freely shared his vast knowledge with us all. A great loss for FSM, indeed.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I rarely peek into, let alone participate in, the politically or religiously charged topics, so I really don't have an idea of how harsh they can get. I can imagine, however, that it must have been pretty harsh to make a strong man like Robert abandon something that he truly loved.

I can only hope that Robert will reconsider and rejoin us here at FSM.

I do agree about one thing, though: if a person doesn't want to get involved in OT stuff, then they shouldn't come to the OT forum.

I was happy when the off-topic forum opened up, because it allowed some of the funniest threads ever to be posted. And then it got religous/political..

I must say that I've personally given up on any political debates due to the sheer futility of it all. I found myself getting more and more wound up about peoples attitudes, and I'm sure they felt the same about me.. I rarely visit these days, mainly because I'm just too busy, but I'm not feeling I've missed out on much. I found an Australian web radio station with its much more international forum and infinitly more pleasent atmosphere. That got cancelled recently after the station went of the air.. Back to the matter at hand though. Do I think its censorship to not allow political or religious topics? No, not when they all just end up as they all do. Pointless flame wars. Don't censor them, just avoid the topic. I realize that the if-you-don't-like-it-don't-read-it idea seems pretty simple, but we all know it just doesn't work that way, its just a handy excuse to blame somebody else for ruining a perfectly good one sided debate.

Anyway, I find it a crying shame, no, a disgrace, that Robert, the most respected member I can think of, has felt that it had to come to this, but to be fair, I can't really blame him. But hey, I'm one of those "ungrateful Europeans", so maybe I'm just full of it..

I'll seeya around..

I suppose it can be considered an attractive nusiance. (Its what they call a horse field with horses in it, so when some kid goes in and gets kicked the horse owner is still sued despite the posted no tresspassing signs)

As far as free speech issues, there hasn't even been a controversial subject brought up yet. We'll see how well free speech lasts if we are to invoke that pandora's box.

As for changing the channel, I've been saying that for years regarding the TV but somehow interest groups still determine what I watch on TV and cannot watch, or listen to on the radio.

Robert I think is a special individual because he truly loved the forum. Its members were his circle of friends and the whole thing was endearing to him. Reflected in his posts and the level of help he gave to its participants. But I guess if your house has a ghost in one room, it still makes it a haunted house, not just a haunted room. He left and much is the pity. We are poorer for it. And there have been others. For what ever reason it no longer appeals to him.

There are arguments pro and con, and someone is always going to feel the need to bring a rebuttal to some statement made or fact twisted or slight voiced. It will not end. It is an aspect that some will find interesting and other see a need to avoid. I only hope it does not overly effect the forum as a whole. After all, a ghost in one room still makes it a haunted house. I am just as guilty as any other of getting sucked into debates (no, none put a gun to my head, its just my folley to poke where I probobly shouldn't.) But certainly now it makes me reevaluate my participation in those threads.

One of the things it has done is made me seek elsewhere like Missing Lynx, Track Links, Digital Dioramas, WW2 modelmaker, AMPS, Armorama and other modeling only sites. No baggage there.

So long Robert and those others that found new clubhouses. You'll be missed. Thanks for the reminder.

it is with a heavy heart i post this. a good friend is leaving this forum for his own reasons. fsm will not be the same without him and his knowledge. i do enjoy the off topic forum, and in a way that is why most on this forum know me. i truely feel saddness that we have gotten to the point where a choice is being made by members as to whether to stay associated with the forum or to leave based upon the massive amount of posting. maybe that is the wrong way to say it but that is what it boils down to. we have lost the family atmosphere when the choice even exists.

robert my friend i urge you to reconsider. your knowledge and insight would be sorely missed. those just beginning in this hobby look for those who are masters and you fit that title to the letter. you carry imense weight with your words and your posts.

joe

There's been a lot of interesting debate here, and there is no doubt that the "Off Topic" forum has little or nothing to do with modeling.

But in looking at the opening page of this website, I count 20 other forums besides "Off Topic" that ARE directly related to modeling. Granted, there are occasional posts in these forums that do stray from the subject, but by and large they are all model-related.
Basically what it boils down to is that less than 5% of these forums non-model related.

If one were to read the "Off Topic" forum on a regular basis, I could certainly see where it might discourage them and have them start thinking that this is some kind of talk radio show, but this is only a tiny slice of the true forum. In fact, it is much like the world itself. One can always scroll to the next topic if he/she disagrees or is not interested.

I have the greatest respect for Robert and his postings and in all sincerity I ask him to reconsider his decision to leave the forum entirely. There's no better modeling forum on the web, and this one won't be the same without him.
Paul

I like to browse the OT myself, but lately (the last 3 weeks or so) I have been slipping to the other side of the fence, that says "eliminate it". I think that by eliminating it though, lots of OT discussion would end up in GMD. I say to eliminate the star farming (guilty) that goes on in there, we should make it like the testing forum.

to tell you the honest truth, I would never have gone on the spree yesterday had not the counter been there to tell me It was in reach. I say eliminate the top posters but keep the rest of the 24 hour thing. I think its got to tell you something when the most active member has left. robert accounts for 2% of all posts. just one member you say?? one of the best, most helpful, and friendly members!!! i don't want to see anyone more go, so something has got to change.

Sorry guys, I just don't get it. I read this thread this morning, and when I got home I thought maybe it would make more sense if I read through it again. I still don't get it.

If I understand the issue, there are two points:

1) To many "Off Topic" posts in the "Off Topic" forum -- OK, if you don't click on the "Off Topic" forum then you don't see the posts. Where is the problem? The "Topic" forums that I frequent tend to stay pretty well on topic. Virtually everything in the "Aircraft" forum has something to do with aircraft. The "Painting", "Tools", "Techniques", and "General Modeling" forums stay on topic pretty well. Not 100% admittedly, but usually they don't stray too far off.

2) People making posts to raise their post count. -- OK, maybe they are. Where is the problem? Most of what is posted that is frivolous is in the "Off Topic" forum and we've already been over that. If it makes people happy to increase their post count, then do them a favor and let them have it.

I'm a relative newbie here having only been around since January, but one thing I learned early on here and on several other forums is simply to read what interests you and skip the rest. This forum has over thirty-seven THOUSAND registered users. I commend FSM for putting together a forum that can draw that many users inthe 19 months since December, 2002. That is nearly 2,000 new members a month on average.

I would tend to expect a lot of post traffic with that many users, and a lot of them are going to be something that I have no interest in so I don't pay attention them. Not a big problem for me. I would be very disappointed if I logged into this forum in the morning and the only new post was a left-over from the day before. Maybe it doesn't have the same homey feel as it did when it was new and there were only a few members. That's to be expected when the number of members exceeds the population of many cities.

There is an enormous amount of information here, and every one of those 37,000 members, from the beginner to the most experienced has contributed to it. Of the nearly 250,000 posts nearly 200,000 are in the modeling sections. The off-topic forum only has about 13% of the total number of posts. I would consider that to be a pretty good average. Personally I like this house just like it is.

I remember before we had the OT forum, members would post their politics etc. elsewhere, so nothing has really changed except the OT posts are now gathered in one place. If you don't want to stop in, read, or post there, then fine.

I usually skip over the political threads because they aren't my cup of tea, but really folks, take a pill! What harm is it doing if someone wants to chat, associate words all night, or whatever? Who really cares about stars in the grand scheme of things?

I have stopped posting at another model forum where the politicking was, I felt, getting out of hand, and maybe the moderators should step in here a bit as well, but in my humble opinion, other than that, I regard the OT forum as a harmless diversion while I am on modeling hiatus.

Thanks for the opportunity to add my 2 cents,
Bruce

I will be a hypocrite if I say that I don't like the OT Forum because I do.. I join the games and other discussions because they make me have little time off from thinking about models. I also indulge in those "photochop" threads even though they are way off from the hobby. I do so because I am having fun in them. Of course there are a lot of heated debates about politics and religion but I rarely join them being content of just knowing what others think.

IMHO it boils down to personal preference. We can't all be the same or have the same preferences. I hate to see important members go and I hope we can find a way to make compromises.

And if it will really do the forum any good...I am also open to the idea of making posts in the OT Forum not count in the post count. More so, I am willing to have my post count recounted to account for this rule if this will be pushed through.

At the end of the day, what will matter to me are the many models I completed while being a member of this forum...

QUOTE: Originally posted by David Voss Many valid points have been brought up all around. I can tell you the staff is reading this and there has been some discussion regarding this topic.

Thanks for looking out for us Dave. Please don't throw the baby out with the bath water though. I would hate to see FSM get into the suppression of free speak business. I really can't see what needs fixing or why some have been offended? Has the OT spilled to other topics? If somebody doesn't like OT why do they go there? I'm hoping somebody will give a reason for this flap that makes any sense at all.

Rick,

I have to second (or is it third...fourth?) your comment concerning the OT Forum. The number of games (how many are they up to BTW?) and threads concerning post counts are getting a bit out of hand (IMHO). I like the idea of making OT Forum posts non-counters for a members total. Great idea!

Rick, no ripping here. And for the most part I agree with you. For the most part I've stayed away from the games as, quite frankly, they are inane and a waste of time. If some of my posts seemed frivolous, then I'm sorry. And, just for the record, I haven't posted just to be posting. Some of the posts I've seen, especially from one person, are just down right stupid, without a point and childish. BUT the OT does fill one area that is absolutely vital. It gives us a place to voice our thoughts, ideas and fears. No they are probably not about modeling, but they do need to be voiced and commented upon by those that we hold in esteem. And this is important. I have seen many thought provoking threads in the OT and ones that have made me stop and think. If it came down to a vote, I would vote to keep the OT as is. Because the ability to have a place to talk about whatever has, for the most part, brought everyone closer together as friends. There should be away to keep the frivolous and OT in the OT forum though.

Eric, when I posted similar opinions on the meaningless Posts in a couple of Threads a few days ago, I got ripped by a few members as being negative & anti-extreme Posters, so with some trepidation I'll jump in here. Some of the blame for the proliferation of meaningless posting is with FSM Administration for promoting extreme posting with the Off Topic Forum, the Forum Games there-in, & now the equally meaningless Chatter Box Award. I guess high Post counts may help FSM attract more advertizing but if it alienates the more dedicated & knowledgable modelers that make up the core of their readership, it's a loser in the long run. Some of the blame is our own for posting congratulations on high post counts when the poster racked up 100's or 1000's of posts playing the Word Association Game. Doesn't add much to modeling now does it ?

One solution might be to keep the Off Topic Forum, for those that want to Play or Vent, but treat it the same as the Testing Forum where Posts don't count in the Members overall total.

When the Forum begins to lose Guys like Robert, it's time to step back & re-think what the Forum is meant to be.

Just my . OK, let the ripping begin.

Regards, Rick

QUOTE: Originally posted by shermanfreak Well to answer the question of who left … me. My reasons are many but can be boiled down into the simplest of terms. When I first joined the Forums here at FSM, the focus was on one thing and one thing only, the modeling hobby. Now …. I feel it is not. So to the many friends that I have made here, thanks for the good times and best of luck with your model building.

Robert,

Why do you feel the forum is not still about the hobby?
I see and learn a lot of things on the forum daily and think it hasn't changed much in the year or so that I have been here. Whenever you get a bunch of people on a forum who learn to become somewhat like a family you are bound to get heated discussions and off-topic posts because of the very nature of spending so much time "together" as it were.
I hope you reconsider Robert as I too would greatly miss your input on this forum.

Mike