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Renewal Thread at Armorama

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  • Member since
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  • From: Massachusetts
Renewal Thread at Armorama
Posted by ajlafleche on Friday, January 7, 2005 8:00 AM
Those in the FSM hierarchy might want to read the following thread.
http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=42852&page=1

Remember, if the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

  • Member since
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  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Friday, January 7, 2005 8:23 AM
Interesting. I'm not trying to start a "Which is better?" war or get flamed for my opinion, but the reason I don't post on Armorama (I signed up at the same time as I did here) is that there, to me, at least, seems to be a pervasive "If you aren't at OUR level, don't bother us with your simple problems" attitude. Granted, that may have just been my take on the topics I viewed, so your milage may vary.
A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
  • Member since
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  • From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posted by zokissima on Friday, January 7, 2005 9:00 AM
Very interesting, but not news. I've felt this way about the mag for a while now.
As for armorama, I've been a member for a while, but never once posted. I like the online community here, but it's become clear that the online and mag parts of FSM are two totally different entities. I agree with most of the views in the armorama thread. I resubscribed this year, but to be honest, I'm kind of wishing I hadn't. If the mag continues at the rate it is going now, I think I will not be resubscribing again. I am tired of their total lack of anything of value to the armor modeler, except the armor modeler who is just starting out. I'm tired of having vague explanations of modifications in buildups, if any. I'm tired of the fact that more SHIPS are covered in the mag than armor. I know that I sound like I'm ranting and raving, and truthfully, I am.
  • Member since
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  • From: NYC, USA
Posted by waikong on Friday, January 7, 2005 9:17 AM
I've been a subscriber for several years now and also agree with the sentifments regading lack of detail in some articles. As to being aircraft oriented, I build aircrafts (mostly), so dont think they have enough! But seriously, I think the article ratio probally relates well to the ratio of poeple interested in the particular topic, just look at the # of posts in the FSM forum for each topic, Aircraft #1 followed by Armor #2.

But I look to FSM as a general modelling magazine - which is what it is, and helps me look at other parts of the modelling world that I'm not usually exposed to. And I learn a thing or two from ship/figure/Sci-fi/Armor modelling that I can use in my Aircrafts. It also boarden's my horizons a bit, which is a good thing. For the same reason, I read Tamiya model mag.

So having said that, I do subsctibe to more 'hardcore' modelling magazines that's tailored specifically to my core interest - like Scale Aircraft International or SkyModel.
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 7, 2005 9:31 AM
interesting. most interesting. i usually pick up a copy at borders and then sell it at my LHS on commision to recover the exorbidant cost here in singapore. i find its good to read to give me inspiration, but as for answering questions this forum is infinitely superior
  • Member since
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  • From: Northern Indiana
Posted by overkillphil on Friday, January 7, 2005 10:29 AM
Oddly enough, I think FSM publishes to much about the sideshow called armor.

Just Kidding, all you track toads and tread heads. As a dyed in the wool aircraft builder, I only look at articles on armor to see if their is any cross applicability to my own field, and typically I can find some useful tidbit amongst all the talk of zimmerint and sdkfz's and ausf whatevers.
But I can sort of see where some of the gripes come from. I would like to see more in-depth info on technique, but I can appreciate that that isn't what FSM is designed for and maybe I should check out some other magazines too. But overall FSM hasn't staled for me yet.
my favorite headache/current project: 1/48 Panda F-35 "I love the fact that dumb people don't know who they are. I hope I'm not one of them" -Scott Adams
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  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Friday, January 7, 2005 10:39 AM
With all the special interest groups nowadays, I think it is difficult for a mag like FSM to try to please every group. Like what was said about in the Amour Thread, if they want a mag thats dedicated to armour, then there is mags that do just that. I think it unfair to try to FSM in that catagory.

If I want a mag thats just about general modeling, then FSM is it. Although I build sailing ships, I get a lot of ideas from the articles about cars and tanks in FSM.

Too bad Model Ship Builder sold out, since there is now nothing out there that caters to plastic sailing ship builders.

My 2 cents [2c]Scott

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  • From: A Spartan in the Wolverine State
Posted by rjkplasticmod on Friday, January 7, 2005 10:41 AM
The Dark Side isn't happy without a lot of whining & nashing of teeth that all things in the world of modeling aren't exactly to their liking. I've rarely seen this kind of complaining from the flyboys.

Regards, Rick
RICK At My Age, I've Seen It All, Done It All, But I Don't Remember It All...
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  • From: Tochigi, Japan
Posted by J-Hulk on Friday, January 7, 2005 11:01 AM
A multi-posted reply to a multi-posted topic:

The whole thing seems rather silly to me...any modeller who focuses exclusively on one genre of modelling, be it aircraft, armor, automobiles, whatever...would certainly find FSM lacking due to it's nature as a GENERAL modelling magazine (uh-oh, the Sci-Fi guys (including me) are gonna be screaming!!). There are specialty magazines devoted to those modellers who focus on one genre only. Beats me why they would take the time to complain about FSM.

Personally, although I'm primarily an armor/aircraft/SF modeller, I enjoy and learn from each and every article in FSM, whether it be new info and techiniques or a reconfirmation of something I already know. No matter what your skill level is, there is always something new to be learned, and plenty of new twists on old techniques.

In my opinion, these folks should spend less time complaining and more time pursuing their interests. Wait a second...maybe their interest IS complaining?
Well then, knock yourselves out, fellas! Wink [;)]
~Brian
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  • From: Pensacola, FL
Posted by Foster7155 on Friday, January 7, 2005 11:04 AM
Well put, J-Hulk!

I concur completely...

Robert Foster

Pensacola Modeleers

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 7, 2005 11:11 AM
I too am mainly an aircraft man and think that there is a bit too many 'target' related articles, but I suppose it is more of a general modeling mag and you have to take the bad with the good.
I have not renewed my subscription this year, but have been getting the mag on and off since '86.

As far as the forum is concerned, do you not think that when someone posts photos, they might welcome a critique of what's on show, rather than the pages of ''ooh , nice'', as long as it is civilised and doesnt turn into a rant by some rivet counters!
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 7, 2005 11:36 AM
OK........ I'm the one who Started the thread over there........ I Focus Mainly on Armor...... But have found alot of usefull info in FSM in the past. It Seems (to me anyway) that some of the stuff is "getting recycled" every few years.... Now, I'm not bashing the Mag by any means.... I do still find it useful. But then again I've been a subscriber since way before I had Internet Access And all of these wonderful Modeling related sites have popped up. The nearest Club is a 2 hour drive one way.... so that was out growing up (even Now I can't justify it to myself.

I asked this beacause, Mabey i've hit a level (I'm scratchbuilding more) and the basic Stuff (covered Constantly) Just doesn't seem to be of any use...... I have all my back issues Arranged in order in 3 ring binders for Reference. I do reffer to them when Questions come up (on alot of the Boards like here & Armorama).

I dodn't mean to Start a small war or anything....... Maybe I'll just got to the Bookstore and Browse through the issue first .... and Buy it if it's got something new & usefull.

Rant over.........

"Interesting. I'm not trying to start a "Which is better?" war or get flamed for my opinion, but the reason I don't post on Armorama (I signed up at the same time as I did here) is that there, to me, at least, seems to be a pervasive "If you aren't at OUR level, don't bother us with your simple problems" attitude. Granted, that may have just been my take on the topics I viewed, so your milage may vary."

I'd Disagree here, Take a look at the AGE camnpaigns They're for youong and/or Inexperienced modelers. There's constantly the FAQ's getting asked and MOST of the memeber's on Armorama Are willing to help/ point in the right direction or Tell you Whom to ask.


  • Member since
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  • From: Massachusetts
Posted by ajlafleche on Friday, January 7, 2005 11:59 AM
Folks, I posted this link here not to get into an argument but as a courtesy to the powers that be at FSM to realize there's some (and from the number on non-resubscriber posts) significant dissatisaction with the mag. Subscriptio rates are what sell a magazine to the advertisers. A dropping subscriber base means it's harder to sell a magazine space, increasing the cost to the consumer or reducing content.
In reality, most of you who are posting here are not the targetted audience.
For the record, I have every issue of FSM dating back to 1982.
Let's all please stand down from any defenssive/offensive postures.

Remember, if the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

  • Member since
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  • From: Connecticut, USA
Posted by Aurora-7 on Friday, January 7, 2005 12:27 PM
I think FSM will measure its success based on it's subscription rate. If it's constantly going up, then they're doing some thing right -if it's going down, something needs to change.

Some issues I like better than others but I've never been dissapointed to the point as to drop it. Using the web and forums is great but I still like having a magazine on the subject to read in the Doctor's office, lunch break or in the living room in the evening.

 

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posted by zokissima on Friday, January 7, 2005 1:01 PM
QUOTE: For the record, I have every issue of FSM dating back to 1982.
Let's all please stand down from any defenssive/offensive postures

Two very good points. This post wasn't meant as a way to start a dispute. It merely brought up an invitation to discuss things that could be a good change for the mag. If you take a look and read through most of the posts from the guys over at armorama, a lot of them are long-time subscribers, like ajlafleche, and the opinions of long-time repeat customers should be quite high on the 'pay attention to' list of the powers that be.
  • Member since
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  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Friday, January 7, 2005 1:33 PM
Actually, I enjoy FSM for most of the non-armor related articles. I subscribe to several different model magazines and pick up armor related ones at the LHS. Their "what's new" section suffers from jet lag. That is, the news isn't too new now that the web has almost instantaneous previews and reviews on the newest kits.

As far as LemonJello's views on Armorama, I think he is way off mark. I was one of the first members (register user #9) and I've become one of the moderators and editors of the site. My skill level is way below some of the masters at the site. I'm not a novice, but I'm far from a great model builder. I doubt any of my models would even rate a posting in FSM. I just like to build.
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 7, 2005 1:59 PM
Just for the record I don't agree that FSM is not worth subscribing to. I don't subscribe myself but regularly buy about 6 issues a year off the rack.

Ironically one of the reasons I started Armorama as a "military modeling" site was because I didn't want to try to cover all areas of modeling. And just as ironically most people just assume the site is only armor. doh!

Could FSM be better? Sure. So could a lot of things. My site has been doing a miserable job in the area of ship content since we started. It is very difficult to be all things to all people and that is the road FSM is on. I think they offer quality photos and articles and all that is only good for the hobby. I just wish more scale modeling magazines were available in major bookstores. Heck I have noted that my local supermarket ussually sells out of FSM very quickly. So what does that say.

Cheers,
Jim
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 7, 2005 2:05 PM
I think the magazine serves its purpose as a magazine that can be appreciated by beginners (e.g., tips and build ups) as well as experts (e.g., new product releases and gallery ideas). However, the under-represented categories such as Sci-Fi, Figures, Autos, etc. could be greatly improved. I've come to realize this likely won't happen, so I read it for ideas that I can apply to the other genres.

It humors me that Hasegawa can release six beautiful new Macross kits, Bandai could release several new Gundam kits, and the countless other Sci-Fi kits from Platz, Ashomi, Wave, Yellow Submarine, Kotobukiya, B-Club, and Studio Half-Eye and NOT ONE OF THEM IS EVER INCLUDED IN THE NEW RELEASES SECTION... BUT BUT BUT every little mundane add-on set for an ancient P-51 gets in there. Yep, they throw sci-fi a bone every now and then in Gallery section. I'd like one article a year on Wonderfest and then I'd be happy. But it's a battle I'll never win.


But I think that Jim from Armorama is right. I think the tendency is for people to float to their genres.
The aircraft modelers go to Aircraft Resource center
The armor modelers go to Armorama
The sci-fi builders go to Starshipmodeler.com
The car modelers go... well they can go to hell. Just kidding. I don't know where they go.
  • Member since
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  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Friday, January 7, 2005 2:51 PM
QUOTE: As far as LemonJello's views on Armorama, I think he is way off mark

Yeah, that wouldn't be the first time. I can't put a finger on what it was about the forums over there, but I just didn't feel as welcome to ask questions as I did here. I still go there to see what's new and happening, and you may be right Rob, and I just picked the wrong threads to read, it was only an opinion, and we all know how the rest of that saying goes...

Topic? Oh, yeah, I like the mag for general modelling as has already been stated. I've looked at some of the other mags, but to me, they get a little too into the topic, but then research is the bane of my building. I just like to build, I'm not worried that a kit is 6 scale inches too short, just as long as once I'm done people say "nice tank/plane/car" and not "Holy Cow! What happened to that?"

Well, my A-10 came today, so I'm off to get elbow deep in some styrene.
A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
  • Member since
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  • From: Pensacola, FL
Posted by Foster7155 on Friday, January 7, 2005 3:03 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by My_name_1s_MUD
The car modelers go... well they can go to h***. Just kidding. I don't know where they go.


Hopefully, they go to Scaleautomag.com, FSM's sister site that is dedicated to all things automotive. They have their own forum, events lists, etc...

Robert Foster

Pensacola Modeleers

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  • From: Pominville, NY
Posted by BlackWolf3945 on Friday, January 7, 2005 3:26 PM
Since the initial pilot ish of FSM, the rag has been a part of my modeling life. At first it was because I really needed it, as I was a beginner. (Everyone is a beginner at some point, which is something many folks seem to forget, including myself sometimes...) Up until last year I never failed to grab any ish of FSM, but it became more of a tradition than anything. I no longer grab FSM without fail. Matter of fact, I haven't bought an ish in over a year. Why? It is quite a visually appealing magazine and, for the most part, it's laid out well but the content has become rather boring for me.

There have been a few interesting advanced-modeling pieces here and there, but FSM is still primarily a rag for the casual, average-Joe model builder as well as the intermediate builder. I passed those phases in the hobby long ago but only fairly recently did I realize that there was little for me to learn from the rag. Anyone who is good at what they do never stops learning, but often times you find little to learn unless you 'go elswhere'. And there are plenty of modeling rags out there. So I went elsewhere.

I remember when Scale Modeler was the big thing. The same type of discussions as those which take place about FSM today also took place in the past about Scale Modeler. That rag has disappeared because, quite plainly, it became a rather poor product and the FSM of the time helped force the issue because it was 'that much better' than Scale Modeler. The FSM of today is not a poor product, it is rather good. But to some, like myself, it just doesn't fit the bill any longer. It's not a bad thing, it's just a natural thing.

So I don't think that the number of folks who are expressing dissatisfaction with FSM is a sign of anything ominous. Again, 'tis nothing new, really. People have been complaining about this stuff for ages, but now and again this happens en masse and that's the start of a 'buzz'. It's simply FSM's turn... again.

This 'cloud' has rained on FSM's parade before and it will probably continue to do so. Not because it's a bad rag; it's not. But rather because some folks (some, not all) are past it, and instead of looking for something different to satisfy their wants and needs, they naturally look for something that is wrong with the current 'fix'. After all, the magazine has been great all these years... why is it so lackluster now?

They ask themselves: Has it changed? In some ways, yes. Does the magazine need a change? Maybe. Will it change? Probably.

But the issue here, for some, is not the magazine; it is the individual. And the folks who ask the above questions may not have asked what, in many cases, is the most pertinent question: Have I changed? Each individual has to decide for themselves what their motivations, needs and 'carrots' are in this hobby. FSM is no longer a 'carrot' for me; indeed, it is no longer even desirable for me. But that's just me.


Fade to Black...


ETO Club Public Forums
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 7, 2005 6:47 PM
I wanted to respond to the issues with Armorama and relate my experiences there. When I first started modeling and had simple questions I would post them on a few different sites. It turned out I always got help at Armorama when the questions would often go unanswered other places. That is why I have stayed there. To be fair this board wasn't functioning at the time.

The other reason is it is constructive. People don't take time out of there day just to put down other people for there opinions or call them things like whiners. I guess we do all have our own interests.

For the record I enjoy FSM and just renewed my subscription. I find myself going to other magazines more often for modeling techniques and ideas, but enjoy reading it. I would like a little more depth to it no matter what the topic is (aircraft, armor, etc.) but always look forward to looking it over when it comes in the mail
  • Member since
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  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Friday, January 7, 2005 7:14 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by LemonJello

QUOTE: As far as LemonJello's views on Armorama, I think he is way off mark

Yeah, that wouldn't be the first time. I can't put a finger on what it was about the forums over there, but I just didn't feel as welcome to ask questions as I did here. I still go there to see what's new and happening, and you may be right Rob, and I just picked the wrong threads to read, it was only an opinion, and we all know how the rest of that saying goes...
Even I do not read all the forums on Armorama (and I moderate 3 forums--Sci-Fi, Buy/Sell, Armor). I've also learned which posters to avoid reading/responding to (unless I have to perform moderator duties).

I've used the analogy that Armorama is like a favorite sports bar. Just because I enjoy going there to watch the game with my friends doesn't mean I want to have a drink with everyone else who also goes there.

As far as "level" goes, I do notice a difference in levels of expertise. Not in the area of modeling though, but in "net savvy". Armor modelers who frequent Track-Link, Missing-Links, Armorama, et al, tend to be more net savvy on the whole than the majority of FSM posters. Not a bad thing, I think of FSM as an entry level model forum where modelers new to the world of forums are first introduced to them via the actual magazine.

Ask the old users of most online forums about RMS and they know what you're talking about. The vast majority of FSM users have probably never heard of it. (Note: RMS is rec.models.scale, a USENET modeling newsgroup and the granddaddy of modeling forums).

I have subscribed to FSM since around 1996-97. I have a subscription renewal due in March but since I'm moving tomorrow I figured I'd hold off renewing until I get a new address next week. I do plan on renewing.
  • Member since
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  • From: Western Canada
Posted by ghamilt1 on Friday, January 7, 2005 8:08 PM
Like alot of people have said, I used to get FSM all the time, but that was when I was getting back into the hobby. I always found their articles on equipment (like airbrushes and paints) to be very helpful. In fact, I was able to make a far more informed consumer choice when I bought my airbrush and compressor thanks to FSM. However, that was some time ago, and I haven't found any articles that have challenged me as a modeler for some time.

This is especially fustrating for me as I am primarily a figure painter and sculptor, and have redirected my magazine budget towards more figure oriented magazines like Military Modeler or Figure International. But, ever since FSM published a picture of one of my figures in the Jan. 2005 issues reader gallery, I'd have to say that FSM is a fine publication and worthy of all our patronage. :)
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 8, 2005 12:03 AM
I began w/FSM back in the early 90s, I think. It was part of my renewed interest in modelling which had lain dormant since before college. I think my last issue was about six years ago. It was a great source of information and inspiration. Since then, my tastes have changed and now I'm a severely addicted WW2 armor builder. I subscribe to several AFV "biggies" (MMIR, MilMod, AFV Modeller) and will get TMMI, SteelMaster, Armour Modelling when something catches my eye. I'm a regular reader and contributor at several AFV modelling websites (Missing Lynx, Track Link, Armorama, Hyperscale, WW2Modelmaker and FSM's armor page).

I'd say my overall experience mirrors Blackwolf or my friend Rob Grovinius. I've changed and FSM's mission to be a general scale modelling magazine just no longer fits my interests. I wish them continued great success and my hope is that many many people can happily say that were assisted and inspired by their product like I was.
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 8, 2005 12:16 AM
Not being a subscriber to ANY form of modeling magazine, since NONE cover what I am interested in. I tend to browse through the mags at the bookstore and by the issues I think worthwhile.

I enjoy the FSM forum because it gives me a chance to stay in touch with fellow minded people on a few of the subjects that I am interested in, there are no forums for the others that I am aware of.

Said that I don't specialise on any specific subject or genre and thus the dedicated forums are too boring for me.

Just my thoughts.
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  • From: Racing capital of the world- Indy
Posted by kaleu on Saturday, January 8, 2005 5:55 PM
I used to subscribe to the magazine and sometimes do buy issues but not as frequently as I have in the past. I started seeing the same tips and techniques from year to year but with different authors and titles. Now I buy MMIR, Military Modeler, TMMI and AFV Modeler. If I am looking for reviews I go online to a few different websites.
Erik "Don't fruit the beer." Newest model buys: More than I care to think about. It's time for a support group.
  • Member since
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  • From: Tochigi, Japan
Posted by J-Hulk on Monday, January 10, 2005 1:55 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Drewgimpy
The other reason is it is constructive. People don't take time out of there day just to put down other people for there opinions or call them things like whiners.


Perhaps my choice of the words "whine" and "whining" (didn't actually CALL anyone a "whiner!"Wink [;)]) was a bit insensitive, Drewgimpy. I have since edited my post and changed those words to the more neutral (and yet totally accurate) "complain" and "complaining." I have since come to realize that "whine" tends to be a fairly inflammatory term on the Internet these days.

It was not my intention to put down anyone's opinions, nor do I take the time out of my days (or nights) "just" to call people names...but to me, there is absolutely no constructive point to that entire thread. That's my opinion, and I tried to express it constructively in my previous post here and in my recent response in the thread itself over at Armorama.

I like Armorama, and enjoy reading it everyday and posting when I feel I have something to offer. Actually, I've been a member over there longer than I have been a member here at FSM. Lots of nice folks over there. And here. And at all the other forums I participate in.

Read what you like, post where you like, build what you like, live how you like.
Life is simple, really! Big Smile [:D]
~Brian
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 10, 2005 7:29 PM
Yes, FSM is a general magazine, but that's OK -- I like to think I can learn from any modeling, not just the areas I favor. FSM gives one exposure to all the modeling areas.

Yes, every few years, we get the "How to Airbrush" (or whatever) article. That's cool -- yes I've seen it several times but for somebody new to modeling, this may be their first time. And for me, there may be something new.

My "complaint" is that by trying to be all things to all people, it is too shallow. Articles are 3-4 pages long, a half-dozen good pix, but maybe less than 3/4 page of text. Most times I feel like "Here's how to build it" ... a startup section ... then magic happens .... and we have a completed model -- and little idea of how.

FSM will always have a high subscription, it is about the only US 'zine. The UK 'zines are way-way-way better in terms of information, but way-way-way more expensive. I suspect more than one or two are simply out of budget for most US folks (don't mean to exclude other parts of world, I just don't know cost data).

  • Member since
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  • From: Waukesha, WI
Posted by David Voss on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 4:52 PM
I'll be honest and admit I haven't read through this thread in-depth, been browsing the forums on one computer while babysitting a very long drawn out install on another. Blush [:I]

I can tell you the editorial staff does read through the feedback they receive. If you feel strongly about a certain subject, don't hesitate to post your opinion. Fill out those surveys, polls, etc. Make sure you're voice continues to be heard.

As for Armorama, I would encourage modelers to take advantage of what the site has to offer. There is a lot of excellent material over there, as well as a good community.

An advantage of the Internet is it provides people who share similar interests an easy way to come together and exchange thoughts and ideas. So put aside any differences, stereotypes and preconceived notions you may have and get involved in some of different modeling communities out there. Keep an open mind, don't be afraid to ask questions, offer answers if you know them, offer advice when you can, and provide encouragement when others need it. Not only will the modeling community benefit, but I believe that you will find your hobby much more satisfying.

Ah...the Zen Art of Babbling. Blush [:I]Smile [:)]
David Voss Senior Web Developer Kalmbach Publishing Co. Join me on the FSM Map
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