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Some thoughts on the cover article B-2 Spirit in the January issue

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  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by IYAAYAS on Monday, February 26, 2007 5:20 AM
 tomgoetz wrote:

The
variations in color are subtle but distinctive.  If you saw
something like that on, say, a blue Corsair from World War II, you
would conclude that the plane had been out exposed to the blistering
elements in harsh enviornment of the Pacific Islands.  Since B-2s
stay as far away as possible from harsh environments, it is, to my
mind, an overdone and un-realistic effect.   Again, every
picture I've ever of operational B-2s shows a very uniform,
uninteresting overall dark gray color, broken only by the various
stenciling lines and insignia.

The B-2 has regular rotations to support the Pacific Commands continuous bomber presence on Guam.  They spend 3 - 4 months at a time there.  While there, they spend most of their time outdoors.  So yes the B-2 is exposed to sun, wind and rain on a regular basis.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Harrisburg, PA
Posted by Lufbery on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:28 AM

Hey Lasse,

No need to set me straight, I pretty much agree with you . Smile [:)]

I may not have been clear in my earlier posts, but I was referring to C-130s (I think). I even posted a few links to photos that show prominent panel lines on a C-130.

I think my comment was simply to say that most photos of C-130s I've seen do not show the very heavy weathering on panel lines that I see on many models.

It all comes back to checking the references for the specific plane one is building.  If the photos of that plane show heavy weathering, then try to match that photo. If the photo doesn't show heavy weathering, well ... try to match that photo. Big Smile [:D]

If photos aren't available, make a best guess.

In the end, the important thing is to build it the way you want to. Nothing else really matters.

Regards,

-Drew

Build what you like; like what you build.

  • Member since
    February 2003
Posted by lasse on Monday, February 19, 2007 3:43 PM

 Lufbery wrote:
However, I've not seen any photos that show the heavily accented panel lines that are current in vogue.

 I just stumbled upon this thread, and felt I had to "set you straight". :-)

 

Here is a link to such a photo of a Royal Danish Air Force F-100F which is probably dating from mid-to-late seventies. In 1968 (coinciding with the introduction of the Draken, I think), RDAF introduced overall olive green camouflage as a replacement for green/gray NATO and NMF finishes used until that point.

I am unsure of the exact shade of that green, probably somewhere between 34102  and 34079. The point is though, that it probably wasn't too standardized to begin with, and further more, and relevant to the topic of this thread, it faded tremendously. I have a picture book from 1980 (when the F-100 was in the process of being replaced with F-16) showing airframes with all kinds of shades, some being as light as a khaki sand color, some (on a Draken) being a bluish (!) gray. (That, however, might just be another case of bad color reproduction, although I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't.)

As you will note from the linked picture, the panel's edges are generally much darker than their centers. This is probably due to patchup painting - dragging a paint brush along the panel line? - not because they fade that way. However, the engine section, as is normal for the F-100, is faded in the typical pattern, which incidentally also seems to follow panel lines. I suppose, the panel edges, being supported by ribs, can dissipate the heat differently than the middle of the panels, thereby locally reducing the fading.

 I was going to say that perhaps John Vojtech should build a green, Danish F-100 next time, but then I saw the links to his own pictures. From these, it becomes obvious that the cover page of the 01/07 FSM issue leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to photographic reproduction. Looking at the pictures in the article confirms this. I don't want to blame anyone, but clearly something must have gone wrong. Someone much have clicked the wrong buttons in Photoshop for sure. Perhaps sharpening has resulted in an erroneous enhanced contrast, which badly affects the subtle shading.

 I hope FSM will figure out how to avoid this the next time. Faithful reproduction is essential whether we want to look at pictures of reference objects, or the models that are made from them.

 I still think Vojtech's C-130 was fairly criticized for being overweathered, though.

 -Lasse

  • Member since
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  • From: I'm here physically, but not mentally.....
Posted by MontanaCowboy on Saturday, January 6, 2007 12:21 AM
 glcanon wrote:

Stinger, you apologize with one breathe, and offend again in the next.  Can such really be considered sincere?  I posted 2 real photos of the B2 in support of my argument of un-due criticism of Vojtech.  Perhaps you mistook those for the virtual model as you certainly didn't mention those.  Or you just failed to see the connection between the two hobbies I tried to draw.  But I'd let others judge for themselves if the photos were interesting.  My grandmother once said there's always someone in every crowd who has nothing productive to add, but nonetheless has to have the last word.  Perhaps you are that person on this forum, there's one in every forum.  For some people that's their sole raison d'etre.

 

 

Settle down, it's easy to tell which ones are real. You've been here for five posts, and you're judging people without asking for an explanation. I actually don't see why you're mad at Stinger. What's up with that?

 

Oh, and the pics on John's site look far more real than FSM.

 

Boycott FSM. Big Smile [:D]

"You know, Life is like a Rollercoaster. Sometimes you just die unexpectedly." No wait, that's not it.
  • Member since
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  • From: Houston
Posted by glcanon on Saturday, December 23, 2006 1:34 AM

Stinger, you apologize with one breathe, and offend again in the next.  Can such really be considered sincere?  I posted 2 real photos of the B2 in support of my argument of un-due criticism of Vojtech.  Perhaps you mistook those for the virtual model as you certainly didn't mention those.  Or you just failed to see the connection between the two hobbies I tried to draw.  But I'd let others judge for themselves if the photos were interesting.  My grandmother once said there's always someone in every crowd who has nothing productive to add, but nonetheless has to have the last word.  Perhaps you are that person on this forum, there's one in every forum.  For some people that's their sole raison d'etre.

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: NYC, USA
Posted by waikong on Monday, December 18, 2006 1:18 PM

Don't want to add fuel to the fire, but to have fair discussion, we should take a look at Mr. Vojtech's website with his pictures of the B2

http://www.umm-usa.com/mygallery/galleryB2.html

The weathering effect is much more subtle than that depicted in FSM's article. Since I haven't seen it in person, I'll without comments as I'm not sure how much of we are seeing is simply due to lighting.

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Everywhere
Posted by stinger on Sunday, December 17, 2006 4:59 PM

glcanon - My apologies if my remark offended you, and perhaps I should have made myself more clear in my last post.

My point was, that you have shown examples of a virtual B2, whereas others have expressed their arguments by showing pictures of either a real B2, or models of such. This is a modeling forum for those who build physical models, not virtual, so what value is it to display pics representing an entirely different realm?

I admire those who are able to obtain realism to the high degree that I have seen in flight sims, and indeed, I like having as much in my own sim games, but again, I fail to see how your pics add to your argument regarding modeling in this forum.

No, I have not built a B2, but if I do, I will choose to side with accuracy over theatrics, as I do with all my builds. My remark was not about Vojtech's build, but about your posting of unrelated pics. It appeared to me that you were attempting to add validity to the accuracy of Vojtech's model by showing examples of something entirely unrelated to this forum.

 stinger

May an Angel be your wingman, and the Sun be always at your six

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Houston
Posted by glcanon on Sunday, December 17, 2006 4:14 PM

Thanks for the kind remarks, Stinger.   I tried to address some of the un-due criticism of John Vojtech fm my own experiences.  And isn't that what this post was about - Vojtech's B-2 Spirit?  The B-2 does in fact look multi-colored and weathered on many photos I have of it.  I've actually seen the B-2 in person.  While some may think Vojtech over-did the weathering, they should look at his website where there are other photos of his model in different lighting. I think it was worthy to be an award-winner.  It's so easy to criticize and make smart-alec remarks when the critic has never done a B-2 model himself, whether a physical model or a virtual one.  To all the smart-alec complainers, if you've done a B-2 model, real or virtual, then let's see your photos.

As anyone who's ever modeled a B-2 knows, whether a plastic or virtual, the Spirit  is NOT an easy one to model accurately -- plus the USAF doesn't just park these babies at every flight line at every airshow, and how many of us have gotten up close to one?  I've written USAF public affairs officers at the 509th for help on non-classified stuff, and never received a reply.  So kudos to John Vojtech --- I can appreciate what he went through researching his model.

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Everywhere
Posted by stinger on Friday, December 15, 2006 11:24 PM

Isn't there a separate area in this forum for simmer's?

stinger

May an Angel be your wingman, and the Sun be always at your six

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Houston
Posted by glcanon on Friday, December 15, 2006 11:17 PM

You can learn a good deal trying to "skin" a virtual model.  I started out with AlphaSim's base skin and spent a 1/2 wk looking up photos of B2 wheels so I could duplicate the same look. Look at the photos and judge for yourself.  You could easily spend as much time researching each quadrant, or detail.  But at some point you throw your hands up.  Unless you zoom in all the way, or have a really big monitor and can run FS9 at 1600 x 1200, you'll miss out on all that extra detail.  BTW, I think "flying" my B-2 is probably funner than building one from scratch... but whatever gives one his jollies ; )  

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Houston
Posted by glcanon on Friday, December 15, 2006 10:55 PM

Actually, I've seen plenty photos of the B-2 with different color panels on its surfaces, and also looking somewhat weathered as well.

BTW, AlphaSim released a very nice flyable B-2 Spirit sim for Microsoft Flight Sim 9.0 (FS9).  The two skins for their B-2, dark grey and light grey, are pretty good. Gives you an appreciation for the research involved in painting or "skinning" a real or virtual model of the B-2. 

 

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Upper left side of the lower Penninsula of Mich
Posted by dkmacin on Friday, December 15, 2006 9:54 PM

 

The P61 suffered from tail boom flex, the paint was actually "twisted off" the airframe in the boom area.

 

Don

I know it's only rock and roll, but I like it.
  • Member since
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  • From: Panama City, Florida, Hurricane Alley
Posted by berny13 on Friday, December 15, 2006 3:13 PM

I just got my issue in the mail today.  I have to agree that the B-2 was overdone on weathering.  I can't understand why it is considered the norm to over do something like that.  The F4U-1 was also to the extreme in weathering.  Maintenance takes better care of aircraft than that. 

I have seen models of aircraft that was dirty and weathered so bad, if that was real life, I would be jumping all over the Crew Chief for having such a filthy looking aircraft. 

Goshawk, that is one fine looking Corsair you showed.  That is what I would call realistic looking.

Berny

 Phormer Phantom Phixer

On the bench

TF-102A Delta Dagger, 32nd FIS, 54-1370, 1/48 scale. Monogram Pro Modeler with C&H conversion.  

Revell F-4E Phantom II 33rd TFW, 58th TFS, 69-260, 1/32 scale. 

Tamiya F-4D Phantom II, 13th TFS, 66-8711, 1/32 scale.  F-4 Phantom Group Build. 

 

  • Member since
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  • From: New York City
Posted by Goshawk on Friday, December 15, 2006 12:20 PM

I'm afraid I would have to disagree with you Eric. I thought that Corsair was grossly overdone. I agree that aircraft in the Pacific did wind up with very heavily weathered finishes, but the technique used on that Corsair in the latest issue of FSM was just so heavy handed, it made the model look like...well, a model.

When attempting to convey heavy weathering, modelers tend to forget to "scale down" the weathering. Think of it this way, if you were to "scale up" that Corsair model to be a full size aircraft, imagine how the paint work would look full size. When building models, we try as hard as we can to try to keep everything "in scale" from antennae wires to wing trailing edge thickness in order to create the illusion that what the viewer is seeing is the real thing only shrunk down to fit on a table.

 When weathering, a little can go a very long way. Most of the normal fading and grunge on an aircraft, when shrunk down 48 or 72 times would be almost undetectable, only a severely weathered aircraft would have even noticeable discoloration. A few years ago at the 2004 IPMS Nationals in Phoenix I saw a Corsair finished in what I would consider to be a very realistic "heavily weathered" Pacific Theater paint job. Here are a few photos of that model.

 

As you can see, it looks well worn, but "in scale" with the model. Now go back and compare it to the model featured in FSM. Big difference right? All of a sudden the Corsair in FSM starts to look a little bit cartoon-ish.

 Anyhow, that is just my opinion and certainly nothing more.

 Tory

 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Green Bay, WI USA
Posted by echolmberg on Friday, December 15, 2006 8:55 AM
 echolmberg wrote:
Did anyone else notice that the weathered look of the B-2 was pretty much the exact same as the weathered look on the hand-painted Corsair that was in the same issue?
On a side note, I think the Corsair's weathering was absolutely wonderful because it was realistic. I tell ya, I've seen some pics (as I'm sure we all have) where planes out in the Pacific were just beat all to pieces because of that sand. I remember seeing a picture of a P-61 whose twin booms were worn down to the bare metal. I just wanted to clarify my comparison between the B-2 on the cover and the Corsair in the same issue. The two weathered effects were almost similar but I would expect it on the Corsair, not on the B-2. Just wanted to clarify that. :) Eric

  • Member since
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Posted by Schnord05 on Friday, December 15, 2006 6:58 AM

Well put Mr. echolmberg.

Why is it acceptable to so exaggerate one aspect of the piece (the finish - which I would argue is the most important part) and not others?  To my way of thinking, if a modeler is going to exaggerate - in many cases flat out invent one aspect of his/her model, why only one?  How about a seven blade propellor?  Balloon tires with mag wheels?  National insignia in twelve locations?  Wings that fold in three places and four directions?  How acceptable would that sort of thing be?  Did I hear somebody say "That would be inaccurate?"

Claim it's "artistic".  That ought to be your blank check. 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Massachusetts
Posted by ajlafleche on Thursday, December 14, 2006 6:10 PM

 echolmberg wrote:
. I was saddened to see the artist win so many model awards with his depiction of the B-2, detailed though it might be. It is just not a realistic depiction of an historical artifact. It is an artist's rendition and an incorrect one at that.

I agree withyou to a point. No, I don't think this is a realistic finish on this model. However, within the IPMS rules, the accuracy of the finish is not considered. I would have hated to judge this since I feel it's unrealistic and inaccurate but the quality of the build, the detailling, and the APPLICATION of the finish is what IPMS judges MUST consider, especially at the national contest. If only he'd  put into the accuracy of the finish what he put into the accuracy of the detailing we'd have one of the best models ever done.

From the competition handbook: "The model's surface, once painted, should show no signs of the construction process (glue, file, or sanding marks; fingerprints; obvious discontinuities between kit plastic and filler materials; etc.).

  • Finish should be even and smooth. If irregularities in the actual aircraft's finish are being duplicated, documentation of such irregularities is required.

    1. No brush marks, lint, brush hairs, etc.
    2. No "orange-peel" or "eggshell" effect; no "powdering" in areas such as fillets or wing roots.
    3. No random differences in sheen of finish caused by misapplication of final clear coats.
  • Paint edges that are supposed to be sharp should be sharp (no ragged edges caused by poor masking). Edges that are supposed to be soft or feathered should be in scale and without overspray.
  • Framing on clear parts should have crisp, uniform edges.
  • Weathering, if present, should show concern for scale (e.g., size of chipped areas), be in accordance with the conditions in which the real aircraft was operating, and be consistent throughout the model (a factory-fresh interior would be unlikely on a 100-mission aircraft).
  • Decals:
    1. Aligned properly. (If the real aircraft had a markings anomaly; e.g., an inverted U.S. insignia, the model builder should provide documentation to show that he is deliberately duplicating someone else's error, not inadvertently making one of his own.)

      Some modern aircraft use decals rather than paint for standard markings. If the real aircraft suffers from problems with decal application, such anomalies should be documented if duplicated on the model.
  • Colors. Paint colors, even from the same manufacturer and mixed to the same specs, can vary from batch to batch. Different operating environments can change colors in different ways. All paints fade from the effects of weather and sunlight, and viewing distance alone can change the look of virtually any color. Poor initial application and subsequent maintenance compound these problems. Therefore, aside from gross inaccuracies such as a light green "Red Arrows" aircraft, color shades should not be used to determine a model's accuracy or lack thereof. Again, models with unusual colors should be supported by confirming documentation."
  • Remember, if the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

    • Member since
      December 2002
    • From: Harrisburg, PA
    Posted by Lufbery on Thursday, December 14, 2006 3:21 PM

    Echolmberg, 

    The Corsair may be weathered appropriately. Planes in the Pacific theater really got beaten up by the humidity, hot sun, and -- depending on the time of year -- driving rains.

    I generally agree with people in this thread -- a lot of weathering on models we see in exceptionally overdone!

    BTW, I really got a kick out of the April Fools joke from a year or so ago (and posted again above).

    BUT, don't go too far in the other direction and state that there shouldn't be any weathering on planes. Sometimes you can see the panel lines! However, I've not seen any photos that show the heavily accented panel lines that are current in vogue.

    My solution is to check photos and try to replicate what I see. I've seen photos of some pretty beat-up PBYs and Corsairs from the Pacific in WWII. Most contemporary F-14 photos show some pretty dirty planes.

    In fact, one of the best articles I've seen in FSM on weathering was about making a Tomcat look dirty enough to look like a plane from this decade. The weathering was subtle, but very effective.

    Check the photos, and then build it the way you like it.

    Regards, 

    -Drew

    Build what you like; like what you build.

    • Member since
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    • From: Green Bay, WI USA
    Posted by echolmberg on Thursday, December 14, 2006 2:22 PM
    Did anyone else notice that the weathered look of the B-2 was pretty much the exact same as the weathered look on the hand-painted Corsair that was in the same issue? I think the artistic touches that people (myself included) put on their models is great. It shows that there is no limit to what a person can do the "canvas" of the plastic model. But there's a "but".....But I think it does a disservice to what the very nature of what a scale model is supposed to be. By it's very nature, I feel a scale model is supposed to be an accurate respresentation of a historical item (armor, aircraft, figure, ship, etc) in a particular place in time. Depicting a heavily weathered B-2 or the artist's (note I did not say "modeler's") C-130 is equivalent to depicting Phoenix missiles slung in quad packs under the wings of a Brewster Buffalo as it charges into battle with the Klingons. It would be like building a diorama of George Washington at Valley Forge doing Ninja moves against the Redcoats like Neo did to Mr. Smith in "The Matrix". It is simply fictitious. I was saddened to see the artist win so many model awards with his depiction of the B-2, detailed though it might be. It is just not a realistic depiction of an historical artifact. It is an artist's rendition and an incorrect one at that. There is a place for this work but it is not in any model airplane contest. It would be better to display it in an art exhibit but not side by side with historically accurate recreations. It is clearly evident that the artist has many talents. However I feel the way he finishes his models are best left to the science fiction genre where one is only bound by the limits of their imagination. All I'm saying is that there is a place for everything and everyone. I don't think it's fair that a person who painstakingly creates a historically accurate replica should take a back seat to someone who clearly makes stuff up. Eric PS. I am putting in paragraph separations as I write this but they are not coming through as I post this! Yikes! Sorry.

    • Member since
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    • From: New York City
    Posted by Goshawk on Thursday, December 14, 2006 11:33 AM

    Me thinks Mr. Hawkey might be giving me more credit that I deserve.

    If he hadn't jumped in with a generous offer to help out, the diorama would most likely still be rattling around the hollow shell I call my head as little more than a "neat idea".

    In any event, I am glad the diorama pleased the more sensible minded modelers out there who "got it". If only the poor misguided folk could see the light...

     

    • Member since
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    • From: West Virginia, USA
    Posted by mfsob on Thursday, December 14, 2006 11:30 AM

    My 2 cents - some of us build to win contests.

    Some of us build for ourselves.

    Nothing wrong with either approach - unless you start insisting that your way is the only way. Which is the way some contest judges seem to be leaning.

    That said, I do agree that it is amazing detail in a small scale, I will probably never even approach that level; but in addition, since I don't own an airbrush and probably never will, neither do I feel compelled to try and imitate this look. 

     

    • Member since
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    • From: Reno, NV
    Posted by espins1 on Thursday, December 14, 2006 10:47 AM
    I love that diorama you two made, and most of us get the point you are trying to make with it.  Excellent work gentlemen.  Smile [:)] Thumbs Up [tup] Thumbs Up [tup]

    Scott Espin - IPMS Reno High Rollers  Geeked My Reviews 

    • Member since
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    Posted by Schnord05 on Thursday, December 14, 2006 10:26 AM

    For the record, Hoyt Vandenberg WAS the CO at the time the original "orders" were dated.  In order for our friends at the magazine to turn our spoof of the current sad trend in airplane finishing into an April Fools piece, THEY changed the date on the paperwork to April 1.  (Not that names and dates were all that relevant to what Tory and I wanted to get across.)

    Our contention was that the only way airplanes could wind up looking like models of them so often do these days, was if they were deliberately painted that way.  It sure wouldn't happen naturally. 

    I did ask Paul Boyer to give Tory top billing when they ran the thing, as he was the prime mover of the project and did the bulk of the work -- and took it to that year's IPMS Nationals.  Atta-boy Tory!  Someday I hope to see our diorama in person...

    Pat Hawkey 

    • Member since
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    • From: New York City
    Posted by Goshawk on Thursday, December 14, 2006 9:26 AM
     tomgoetz wrote:

    I remember the April Fool's article with the P-47s in it, and loved it!  Got a real hoot out of the concept, even if they goofed up and used the wrong commanding general for the date listed in the "orders".  Perils of being an historian as well as a modeler - you notice fairly trivial stuff like that.

    To Tom et al,

    Boy am I delighted to read this thread, I sure wish more modelers felt this way.

    The "April Fools" diorama of which you speak was created by Pat Hawkey (a frequent FSM contributor) and me. Its original intent was not meant to be a joke, but quite the opposite. We did this diorama to offer a somewhat scathing explanation as to the only way an aircraft could come to look this way. After seeing this "trend" become more and more prevalent, we decided it was time to set things right. Though glad that FSM choose to publish photos of our effort, its use as an "April Fools" piece somewhat diluted its original intent. For those not familiar with the diorama, here are a few photos.

    I agree that Mr. Vojtech's B-2 and last year's AC-130 are amazing accomplishments in detailing. His building abilities are simply amazing. Which only makes his finishes seem that much more out of place. Why he chooses to go with this style when he obviously took so much care in researching every other aspect of the aircraft he chose to model is baffling. So many modelers will go to such great lengths to insure the accuracy of there models including aftermarket detail and correction parts, only to undermine all that effort with a totally fictitious paint job.

    I hope that this trend is in fact just that, a trend. And like all trends, will eventually pass.

    • Member since
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    • From: Harrisburg, PA
    Posted by Lufbery on Wednesday, December 6, 2006 10:28 AM

    Berny,

    I agree with the general consensus about panel lines expressed in this thread. I also really like the look of your KA-6D!

    Still, sometimes the panel lines are visible, as this random image from a Google search shows (click to enlarge):

    So my approach is to check for specific references to specific planes when I try to model them. But, as I said in my previous post, even color photos can be difficult to judge.

    In the end, I don't think we can have a blanket rule for panel lines, or markings, or camo, or any other aspect of a model and its finish -- there's always a real-life exception! 

    Regards, 

    -Drew

    Build what you like; like what you build.

    • Member since
      February 2003
    • From: Panama City, Florida, Hurricane Alley
    Posted by berny13 on Wednesday, December 6, 2006 8:56 AM

    I have never been a big fan for accenting panel lines.  I have  been around real aircraft and they just don't look that way.  When an aircraft is built, a sealant is used on all removal panels and butt joints.  Some panels are never removed by maintenance.  These panels look flush with no seam line that is visible.  Panels and doors that are opened on a routine basis do show paint chipping or accumulated stains, but not to the extent shown on many models.  

    On a real operational aircraft, panels, doors, covers, components, etc get damaged and are replaced.  The color or camouflage pattern may not match up.  Do model builders emphasize these.  No they don't.  An example is a KA-6D I saw at Tyndall AFB many years ago.  The aircraft was painted in gloss gull gray all over.  The top side had different shades of the gray, where the underside , flight control surfaces were one uniform color.  The radome was two tone gray and the canopy was a different shade of gray.  The droptanks were three different colors, from white, gull gray and flat gray.   Have you ever seen a model built this way?

    Navy and Marine aircraft are spot painted to prevent corrosion when at sea.  That is the closest I have seen to accenting panel lines.  The thing is, not every panel line shows spot painting and not the way some model builders accent them. 

    Below is a model of the KA-6D like I saw at TAFB.  It was built many years ago and the decals have turned over the years.  It is usually kept out of sight in my model room on a shelf.  I had to do some minor repair after a hurricane sent a limb through the roof of my model room and did some damage to it. 

    Berny

     Phormer Phantom Phixer

    On the bench

    TF-102A Delta Dagger, 32nd FIS, 54-1370, 1/48 scale. Monogram Pro Modeler with C&H conversion.  

    Revell F-4E Phantom II 33rd TFW, 58th TFS, 69-260, 1/32 scale. 

    Tamiya F-4D Phantom II, 13th TFS, 66-8711, 1/32 scale.  F-4 Phantom Group Build. 

     

    • Member since
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    Posted by Anonymous on Monday, December 4, 2006 10:09 PM

    I remember the April Fool's article with the P-47s in it, and loved it!  Got a real hoot out of the concept, even if they goofed up and used the wrong commanding general for the date listed in the "orders".  Perils of being an historian as well as a modeler - you notice fairly trivial stuff like that.

    As to the panel lines on the B-2 model, I actually don't have any problem with them.  That is because they are not really "panel lines" in the sense that we normally think of.  That is, they are not spaces in between seperate sections of metal, or in this case composite, skin material.  That is after all what panel lines are - the almost invisible joint between two sections of aluminum that have been fastened to the frame of the aircraft.  As aircraft have become more streamlined and faster, those seams have gotten smaller and smaller, to the point where you have to be almost on top of the real machine to even spot them on modern combat aircraft.  Which makes all those models of modern military aircraft with all these highly visible panel lines even less realistic than the ones on older planes.

    Anyway, back to the B-2.  The B-2 has no "panel lines" in the traditional sense, as the entire surface of the aircraft is a single piece of the carbon fiber composite - that is one reason the plane is so darned expensive.  The skin is essentially one single piece, with some small cutouts for access hatches and such.  The "panel lines" on a B-2 are in fact similar to stenciling, only in this case they are deliberately created in the skin of the B-2 itself by lightening selected portions of the surface, since they cannot use paint on it at all.  They are put there to indicate where things like framing, hatches, and other important internal parts of the airplane are - information which is often essential when doing maintenance.  Even the national insignia are "molded" into the skin.  Since the overall color of the B-2 is a dark gray, these essential markings are crafted in a lighter gray for contrast, without being too obvious.   So the light gray "panel lines" on the model are in fact completely accurate, and can be verified by any good close up of the real plane.

    But I agree that panel lines on a great many recent aircraft models are over-sized and over-emphasized.  The over-sized part is probably inevitable, given that modelers want panel lines on their kits, and if the companies were to make them to realistic scale, they would be so fine and insignificant that they would be effectively invisible.  But this trend to emphasize the panel lines, to in effect shout "look at these seams!" on the finished product, is our fault as builders.  We do it because we want people to notice what we've built, and this is a good way to draw attention to the finished product while still being "subtle" and "realistic".

    As an example of what I mean by scaling up to show the real size of panel lines, consider this.  I attempted to measure the depth of some panel lines on some of my 1/48 kits.  Not entirely successful, as most of the parts are still in the plastic bags, and my smallest unit of measuring only goes down to 1/32 of an inch, but based on that, I'm guessing that most of the panel lines on the best, most recent kits are only about 1/100 of an inch deep - perhaps even less, but bear with me.  That seems pretty darn tiny, and is very hard to see as well - which is probably why we tend to consider them "delicate" and "in-scale".  But scale them up to full size, and what do you get?  A gouge in the skin of the plane that is approximately one half in deep and one half inch wide.  Now that's a real trench!  Even if you reduce the depth of the model's panel line to 1/200 of an inch deep, it still scales up to almost 1/4 of an inch deep and wide, which I'm sure anyone who has ever seen the real airplanes would admit is enormously bigger than the real thing.  Or do it the other way - measure the width and depth of real panel lines on real airplanes, and then scale them down.  Not so easy to do, but still yields some impressive numbes, I'm sure. 

    There is a certain amount of the "Scale Effect" at work here.  If the panel lines are to be seen at all on such a small model (they almost certainly would not be seen if you simply took a real plane and shrank it down to scale size) they must be oversized, and because the model is so small, you can get away with making them too large because they are still almost too tiny to be noticed. 

    The only evidence I've ever seen in photographs of actual planes of panel lines being noticeable is in areas around the engine, cooling, and hydraulic areas of the plane.  These areas all leak some sort of fluids, which tend to accumulate in even the smallest cracks.  These fluids then collect airborne dust and become dark and rather gunky.  So even if most of the panel lines on a P-51 should be virtually invisible, the ones on the forward fuselage can legitimately have some subtle emphasis to them.  This is especially the case with removable panels used to access the engine, as they tend to have just a tiny bit more space between them than other permanently fixed panels, and also because the act of removing them provides extra opportunity for oil and other gunk to get into the cracks.

    I suppose my guiding principle for panel lines and all other forms of weathering is "what does the historical record say?"  What can you find in pictures of the real thing, and how can you then duplicate that efffect?  You can certainly find some examples of pretty extreme weathering - I've seen pictures of German fighters and Stukas in winter white paint schemes with virtually the entire fuselage covered with dark black engine exhaust staining.  But I really do wish people would stop applying various artistic painting and weathering techinques in the name of "realism" without bothering to verify that the efffect is in fact realistic. 

    • Member since
      December 2002
    • From: Massachusetts
    Posted by ajlafleche on Monday, December 4, 2006 6:21 PM
     tomgoetz wrote:

     this style of paint weathering, but it has become an almost required technique for contest models - how can you be a "serious" modeler if you don't fade your wing panels?

    As one who spends a goodly number of hours bent over models at local and regional contests, I'll tell you that if there were an accurately depicted model next to one with a wow factor paint job that looked unrealistic with heavy preshading, (or excess paint chipping, etc.) and all other basic skills were equlal, I'd advocate very strongly with my team that the nod go to the one withteh more realistic finish. IPMS National rules suggest as much as well, with accuracy of paint job being given the benefit of th edoubt.

    Given the level of work exhibitted BEFORE the painting, and not having seen what else was in competition, I'm sure he deserved the awards he received. Unfortunately, this model's inclusion on the cover will inspire others to try for more and more "modellistic" effects as opposed to an accurate depiction of a prototype aircraft, tank or other vehicle.

    It's ironic that a couple years back that our hosts here even spoofed the whole concept of "artisitic" weathering in an April Fools' diorama showing a ground crew sahding and fading a P-47 which was parked next to a clean one. IIRC, the premise of the dio was that the crew was doing this to make the plane look more used for a visiting dignitary.

    Remember, if the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

    • Member since
      December 2002
    • From: Harrisburg, PA
    Posted by Lufbery on Monday, December 4, 2006 4:43 PM

    John Vojtech's B-2 is absolutely amazing! So was his C-130! I love what he can build in 1/72 scale. His work is truly inspiring.

    But... the panel lines are far too prominent.

    I see C-130s fly over my office parking lot all the time, and the most noticable "weathering" I see is exhaust streaks on the underside of the wings as in this photo. You'll notice in the same photo that that particular plane is pretty dirty and the panel lines are more prominent than in other photos I've seen. They're still far less prominent than Vojtech's model.

    For some reason, though, the panel lines on his B-2 bothered me less than on the C-130. I think overly dark panel lines on a light finish are more of a problem than light panel lines on a dark finish. 

    At least we have  color photos to compare the model to. This high-res, 3 MB photo shows a lot of variation in the colors of the panels. Whereas this smaller photo taken in different light hardly shows any variation. In this high-res photo, one can't even see a single panel line!

    With WWI and WWII planes, which were mostly photographed in black and white, people have written whole volumes on how to interpret the colors. When a color photo of a plane shows up, it makes things even worse, with discussions on how color film processing has changed, how film degrades over time, how the color of paint degrades over time, etc.

    The easy answer is that there is no easy answer. I've taken a couple of trips to the Smithsonian's Udvar-Hazy Center over the past few years. At one point, somebody on another message board asked if WWI planes had black tires or grey tires. I was curious as to how the Smithsonian had chosen to do the tires for their Nieuport 28, so I looked at some of my photos. 

    .

    .

    I've been there twice, studied the plane, taken photos, and I still can't tell you with absolute certainty that the tires are black, although I think they are.

    My approach is to study the photos of the subject I'm modeling, and try to replicate what I see. In the end, though, it's always a judgement call, and I'm the only one who I need to please.

     Regards,

    -Drew

    Build what you like; like what you build.

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