Horse Races - Win , Place , and Show

TB, what you mention in your last paragraph is my favorite part.  We go to such a variety of shows, ever increasing in number per year, because we enjoy meeting the people I talk to in these online forums. I now regret that I hadn't started a list after my first show,,,,,but, the list would be quite large by now. Anne knows about some of you folks, because we talk while we are both online. So, just as an example, I will be chattering away, and say something like, "you know, that Trooper I told you I would like to meet when we get a chance to go to California again",,,,,,or "that ship builder that had trouble with the format" (haha, just joking, TB)

I had no intention of "being a bulldog with a bone" about this thread, I had this sub-conscious thing in the back of my mind the whole time,,,,,,,I just now realized what it was,,,,,it is the name of this forum "IMPS Nats"

I very clearly want to say that I have NO animosity or dislike, etc, for all the other methods of building models,,,,,or towards types of models.  Just like plastic model types that I don't build, I can stand and look at models built from wood, etc, ,all day long. I don't know the name of the place, but, if anyone ever gets Upstate New York,,,,,up north of Watertown, and east of Sackett's Bay,,,,,there is a boat museum there on the banks of the St Lawrence that makes a modeler just stand and dream. (Sackett's bay is a park/museum worth a few hours, also)

Well, I have probably talked about contests enough for one week,,,,,,,,,I only have two weeks to get ready for the first show of our contest year, which ends at the next Nats in Columbus.  The first show is up in St Louis, a bit of a drive starting at 3am here,,,,,,probably get back home at 3am afterwards, lol.

Rex

Tarn;

   I do like your thinking . I apologize for beating a dead horse here , to you and the Proff. . It just seems to me  ,If we Must have these get competitive get togethers there Should be some National standards for all who claim to be AMPS or IPMS. Don't you think ? I don't compete anymore because of the Drama I experienced at my last show/contest three years ago .That stuck in my mind I guess . After all ,  is it necessary to get physical and loudly verbal with security because you didn't even place in a category?

    I was entered in ships .There were three of us. Three ships ! One honking big Lindberg destroyer. One Small sail ship .And mine , a 1/400 U.S.S. Butler . Well I took second and the Big ship took first .The poor little sailing ship didn't even get a " Hello ". Was the ship builder angry, No , he said simply, "I did it so you two could compete .Remember we needed at least three ". Now that's modeler's courtesy !

        The confrontation at the awards part is what spoiled it for me . We had class winners from as far away as Mexico City for gosh sakes ! Oh, and Panama too ! How often does one get to talk modeling with an eye surgeon ? Not often I am sure .That's the part I miss. That and the Vendors ( who sometimes are blinded by the dollar ) and just seeing friends I hadn't talked to,except on line , for over a year . Remember Texas is big in area !       T.B.

Yes, IPMS first started in the UK.

Funny enough,,,,,there is also a huge active IPMS in Japan, and Canada, and Australia and so on,,,,,all unrelated to IMPS-USA

I didn't intend to type as much as I have up above in this thread,,,,,,I just wanted to point out that 1-2-3 and G-S-B were already in place in the US, and that one of them is the same as Win, Place and Show.

Just a side note, but wasn't IPMS originally started in England or the UK? (The I is for International) And if so, and the contest rules & guidelines started for IPMS would therfore be "British" rules? I am a bit hazy on the organizations total history. Or are we strictly referring to IPMS/USA rules here? Not that it reallym atters. I partake in my two local clubs that use the two different systems, AMPS and IPMS and have fun there with both.

In the highly unlikely (no, impossible) event that I had to write the rules for another contest, I'd start by gathering all the info I could find about how other people do it, and make up my own mind as to which I liked best. My inclination, on the basis of what I know now, is to prefer the British system I mentioned earlier (which I'm sure is far from the only system used in British contests). One winner in each category, and "Commended," "Highly Commended," and "very Highly Commended" certificates for as many entries as the judges think appropriate.

What system I like best, though, is irrelevant. As I've said several times before in this Forum, I have no intention of ever having anything to do with another model competition - as either a competitor or a judge. Possible exception: if somebody held a model contest with a Porsche as the first prize and a Chevy Corvette for the runner-up, I'd be tempted to enter. If I did, and I didn't win...well, those judges had better watch out.

And that is a common misconception,,,,,,,IPMS doesn't try to control the "right way" to build models,,,,,,they do try to give guidance to help people build better models. there is a difference

Also, judging guidelines weren't written to "enforce on modelers a standard", they are merely there to provide some continuity in judging standards,,spelled out in advance, so that some disgruntled modeler doesn't go home in third and get all upset because the "rules were made up on the spot"

someone has to be "the bad guy" and tell poor old Joe Paintbrush that his model with the superglue fogged canopy and the big ole honkin' thumbprint on the wing did NOT get "robbed by the judges" when he didn't capture 1st place with it,,,,,,,,and you can't do that if you don't have the rules spelled out ahead of time.

okay then

How are Plastic models judged in non IPMS or non AMPS ways?  An entire show based on Popular Vote? And with Written slips or "most noise"? (People's Choice for the entire show)

I literally can't think of any other way to declare a winner than "best constructed one here wins first" (IPMS method), "these models have lots of good points" (AMPS method),,,,,,or "this model got the most votes or applause" (People's Choice)

even plank on frame ships or bread and butter ships can't have more variations than that, if they are static models

Rex

I don't think there's any real disagreement here. My only quibble with Tarnship's last post is his assertion that IPMS and AMPS are THE two standards. I don't think they - or anybody else - can claim such a title.

There seems to be a rather widespread misconception about just what the IPMS is, and what it does - and what authority it has in the modeling world. I don't blame the IPMS for that misconception. But some people seem to have the notion that the organization is some sort of umbrella authority that defines the "right" ways to build models - and what constitutes "good" and "bad" models. I repeat: I don't blame anybody in the IPMS for that. In fact, I've read several posts by IPMS members trying to clear up the misconception. But I've seen and heard too many things like "I know my models will never come up to IPMS standards," and "my stuff isn't good enough for an IPMS contest." I'm sure such phrases bother the IPMS management as much as they bother me.

I thought we were talking about plastic models,,,,,,,not RC aircraft (no forum on here), control line aircraft (no forum here), Model railroading (again, no forum here) and Working Steam (yeah, not on FSM)

So, yeah,,,,,IPMS has no standards for Die-Cast collectible model enhancing (that is a real hobby)

But, for plastic models,,,,,IPMS and AMPS are the two standards (and Insurance providers for the public shows) and this line in the original post sure says "Plastic Models" to me,,,,,,,,,"won Bronze in armor. Silver in cars and the big one - Gold in planes!" unless someone knows of Wood or Metal Armor, Cars and Planes at the same venue.

Rex

Hundreds - probably thousands - of model competitions take place, in the US and elsewhere, that have nothing to do with the IPMS or AMPS. There are flying airplane competitions, model railroad cmpetitions, RC boat competitions, sailing ship model competitions, model engine competitions, and on and on. To say that there are just two "established systems" in place seriously distorts the case. (The British and French - who produce some of the best models in the world - use several different systems of their own. I have no idea how the Japanese or Chinese run model contests, but I doubt that they're influenced much by the IPMS or AMPS.)

For some reason, some people seem to get the notion that standards exist where they don't. I once read a reference in this Forum to "NRG standards." As a longtime member of the Nautical Research Guild I can say with complete confidence that there are no such standards. (The NRG does, however, offer to "supply qualified judges" to contest organizers who ask for them.)

Then there was the inflammatory thread in this Forum in which a member announced that "IPMS has decided to eliminate plastic sailing ships from the hobby." That he would think that the IPMS - or anybody else - had the ability (let alone the intention) to do such a thing was, of course, utter nonsense - and, I thought, kind of pathetic.

My personal opinion, as I've ranted several times in this Forum, is that model building would be better off if there were no model contests. But if they're going to exist, I sincerely hope that - as is the case now - nobody will ever be in a position to decree how they are to operate.

I know the IPMS does a lot of good for the modeling community, and I know lots of modelers benefit from being members of it. But it doesn't have any influence on anybody who doesn't want to be influenced by it. In my opinion, that's how it should stay.

well, at the risk of repeating myself,,,,,,there are already two established systems (there may have been 15 different ways of doing it in 1995, though)

one uses 1-2-3 (first, second, third, or win, place, show at the horse track), one top winner only,,,,,three in total in each category

the other uses G-S-B (Gold Silver Bronze), as many top winners as there are top models

those are the established labels for the two types of judging, used across the board to the point that IPMS people that want to change to AMPS sytle judging use the title "AMPS style" or "GSB judging",,,,,,and everyone knows what they mean

There could be variations, but, the 11 contests in a 5 hour radius of here over the next year all use one or the other. Outside of that radius, I wouldn't know.

we go to the shows in a circle that centers in Nashville, TN, and includes St Louis, Cincinnati, Warner-Robbins, Little Rock, and Birmingham as the outside circumference.

Rex

added: Some IPMS annual contest chairman needs to weigh in with what happens if you want to advertise as an IPMS club, hosting a public IPMS contest, with a totally different judging system than IPMS or AMPS,,,,,,,and use the IPMS Insurance for that event.

Of course there are rules for IPMS contests - but they only apply to contests run by the IPMS, which (contrary to what some people, inside and outside, seem to think) only represents a tiny fraction of the model-building world. In fact, as I understand it (I may be wrong; I'm not an IPMS member), local IPMS chapters are perfectly welcome to write their own rules and standards.

so, there is no set of  IPMS guidelines, and no AMPS guidelines?

IPMS rules can be found on this website  www.ipmsusa.org/index.htm

edit, you are somewhat correct,,,,,you *can* run a show by having the chairman stand over the model and say "all who think this is the best ship,,,,,,clap your hands" "okay, that is Gold, which is First place",,,,,,"all who think this tank is 3rd place, clap your hands" "okay, that is Bronze"  But, you can't advertise it as an IPMS contest to draw modelers and spectators into it.

Lots of judging systems are in use. There's no universal standard or definition.

When I was working at the Mariners' Museum I wrote most (not all) of the rules that were used in its once-every-five-years ship model competitions until it quit holding them. (I think the last one was in 1995, but I may be wrong about that.) The prizes were gold, silver, and bronze medals, struck from the dies of the original MM Medal engraved in the thirties. For a long time those were the only awards in the contests. There was no point system; the judges at the individual contests came up with their own.

Each medal was accompanied by a cash award. I only remember two of the amounts in the 1980 competition: $1,000 for the first-place scratchbuilt model (the winner being Harold Hahn, and $200 for the first-place "modified kit." (Those were 1980 dollars.)

One reason for limiting the number of winners was money. I don't remember just how much those medals cost, but they weren't cheap. They were about 6" in diameter and about 1/2" thick. They were struck in "bronze gold." The gold and silver medals were plated with the real stuff.

For some reason or other, some people seem to think there is -  or should be -  some universal set of standards governing how model contests operate. There are no such standards. Any institution, organization or individual is perfectly free to set up a contest -  and run the judging however he or it thinks proper. There's nothing to stop a contest from operating in the "1-2-3 " manner Tarnship describes, and awarding gold, silver, and bronze trophies - or colored ribbons, or cash awards, or whatever.

IPMS is already "Win, Place, and Show",,,,that is the horse racing term for 1st, 2nd and 3rd, the judging system that IPMS uses.

Gold, Silver and Bronze is the other set, I believe started by AMPS.

In 1-2-3 judging, each model competes against every other model in that category. This doesn't mean that all Aircraft compete against each other,,,,,a category is "single place prop aircraft 1/72 and smaller" or "multi engine aircraft 1/48", etc ("Aircraft" is one division, not a category)

In Gold, Silver, Bronze,,,,,the model is judged with a score sheet against a point system, not against he other models.

so, if you judge 1-2-3, there is only one 1st place winner that day, and even a poorly built model can take first, if it is one of the top three there on that day in the category, on the flip side, you might have 6 truly excellent models that day, but, only three can wind up 1-2-3,,,,,if you judge G-S-B, there can be 5 winners of Gold,,,,,or Zero winners of Gold that day, depending on the quality of the finished models, so you you have 5 G, 0 S, and 2 B,,,,,,,,or 0 G, 0 S, and 4 Bronze.  G-S-B takes a lot longer to judge at a big show, and you have to guess how many awards to order in advance.

I used to have a link to one contest's Model Score Sheet, but I forgot what they labeled it as, so I can't find it in my favorites.  But, if you printed one out, you could pin it up by your workbench,,,,,and you could check your model the same way it would be checked at the contest,,,,,and you would know how well you built it, whether you took it to any contest or not.  The sheet serves as a sort of summary of all the magazine articles and web pages you have read over the years, concerning quality of building.

I found the link, I remembered the club's name  chattanoogaipms.squarespace.com/.../Chattanooga%20Scale%20Modelers%20Judging%20System%209-28-10.pdf

That PDF is useful four ways,,,,,,,you can pre-judge your model before you enter a G-S-B contest, you can use it as a quick checklist before you enter a 1-2-3 contest (minus the GSB differences) or you can use it for models that will never leave the house,,,,either to evaluate an already finished model, or to follow along and prompt you as you build at the workbench.

I hope this helps,,,,but, do take a look at the GSB scoring pages,,,,even non-competition fans can use that to improve their work.

Rex

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't win/place/show the same as gold/silver/bronze, or first place/second place/third place? I have the impression that many, if not most, model contests are set up that way.

If somebody forced me to make the rules for a model contest, I'd lean toward the system many British competitions use. Each class has one winner. The judges also have the option of awarding "certificates" on three levels: "commended," "highly commended," and "very highly commended." The judges can award as many of each certificate as they think proper - or none at all. Everybody whose model comes up to a certain standard goes home with something - regardless of how many "better" models showed up. That makes a lot more sense to me than passing out trophies or ribbons on the basis of which models happened to be there.

But I still say the best approach of all is: don't have model contests at all.