Candidly speaking ...

Many folks are dissatisfied with the moderators,the banning of some popular members,the new format,the elimination of the "Odds and Ends" section,the restriction of free speech here,and the no fun approach.So as a result many have proclaimed that they are leaving,or just don't come as often.

Anthony

It does tend to kill a site lack of freedom of speech, what a shame, this used to be one of the best sites.

Hi guys,

Well, I guess this might be a question of quantity versus quality. Maybe some guys are spending more time at their workbenches, or maybe, as Tojo has said, they are spending more time on other forums.

The point is, the FSM Forum is a modeling forum, plain and simple. There isn't a free-speech issue: FSM has rules for its Forum and members are expected to adhere to them. We retain the right to remove members who do not respect or adhere to those rules. Otherwise, members are free to come and go as they please.

Just because we aren't churning through posts right now doesn't mean that we won't in the future. Nor does it mean that we should be. We would rather see 500 quality posts that come in over the course of a day rather than 5,000 posts that contain a single word or add little or nothing to the conversation.

As for fun, have it. Threads can meander. When it gets personal or distasteful is when we run into problems.

Finally, there have been two members banned recently: one for posting an inappropriate image of a nude woman and the other for swearing on the forum. Both of these are plainly out of bounds. They have been since the beginning. There have been numerous posts regarding such content and the repercussions for putting that sort of material on the forum. We talked to one over the phone twice about the banning, and had even agreed to discuss lifting the ban. Then he ban dodged, which ended in his permanent removal.

As we have said many times in the past, come here, talk, joke, blow off steam, and most importantly post about your models. However, remember that there are other people on the receiving ends of these posts, many who don't actually post but just lurk (lurk is not a pejorative). There are people who are not members who read these posts. But your fellow members deserve respect, and we are going to do our best to make sure that no one is posting anything abusive or inflammatory. It's not the Wild West in here, nor is it any one member or any one group of members' personal playground, despite what some people may have thought. We're sorry if that disappoints, but that's the way it is.

Take a look at ChuckW, Bsyamato, or VanceCrozier's posts to see what they've been working on lately. Group builds are still going. Stikpusher, RedCorvette, Bish, Hans, Tarnship, CallSignOwl, Professordeath, and many, many more, including you guys, are all still here, still building models, answering questions, and sharing knowledge. To my way of thinking, that's a fine, quality crowd to have around.

As always, if you want to discuss things further, you can email Aaron or me, or you can call us at 262-796-8776, xt. 299 or 230, respectively. But let's get back to talking about modeling and not worrying about the numbers on the Forum. Traffic picks up best when one of you has a cool new model or technique to show off or talk about.

Tim

Tim Kidwell

Finally, there have been two members banned recently: one for posting an inappropriate image of a nude woman and the other for swearing on the forum. Both of these are plainly out of bounds. They have been since the beginning. There have been numerous posts regarding such content and the repercussions for putting that sort of material on the forum. We talked to one over the phone twice about the banning, and had even agreed to discuss lifting the ban. Then he ban dodged, which ended in his permanent removal.

As we have said many times in the past, come here, talk, joke, blow off steam, and most importantly post about your models. However, remember that there are other people on the receiving ends of these posts, many who don't actually post but just lurk (lurk is not a pejorative). There are people who are not members who read these posts.

Tim

I am not going to respond to your entire post, so I selected the above section to focus on.

First, two disclaimers: 1) I have a great deal of respect for the admins on this site. I know that it is a PITA type of job and that, even in the best of times, there will be a few of us who act out and cause headaches for you.

2) Since the last format change, I have participated less and less here. I come and look around quite frequently, but do not post nearly as much as I used to. So take my comments for what they are - the musings and observations of a lackluster participant.

OK, with that out of the way, let me address my point. Tim, I believe you when you say that the FSM staff want this to be a place to discuss modeling and where members can have fun. Unfortunately, from what I have seen, the response of the mods to some of 'us' has resulted in some pretty unsatisfactory feelings. When Aaron tells members that they can't even discuss those who have been banned and the reasons for their banning, well, to me, that is excessive. The irony is, he probably created more headaches for himself (and the other admins/mods) than if he had just set his jaw and weathered the storm. People would have bit^&ed and moaned about the bannings of Bondo and Manny for a while, but once they had vented it would have been a dead issue. By 'suppressing' the community response to these bannings, the Mods create an atmosphere of resentment.

I would also take a bit of exception to your second statement about how we can feel free to joke around, relax, chew the fat, etc. Unfortunately, there seems to be an emphasis on the part of FSM (perhaps Kalmbach driven) to cater this forum to the possibility that there are young, impressionable eyes scanning the threads. The result is, (again from my perspective) is the sense that members have to 'tone down' their posts out of fear that an 8 or 9 or 10 year old might see them. This is problematic when we (the community at large) only wish to be treated as adults. Sometimes that means that we will say things that are not for 'innocent' ears. Sometimes that means that we will tread into areas that are a little sensitive or risque. Sadly, it seems like FSM has no patience for that. Rather than recognize that the vast majority of the participants here are "young" to "middle aged" men, it seems like you want us to tailor ourselves to cater to the few under 18's who are out there (and let's be honest for a minute - we all have seen the content of PG-13 movies, so we are really catering to the under 13's who may come to the site). The result is that we really cannot come here and joke around, at least not in an 'adult' way. And yeah, I get it. Sometimes the boundary between 'adult' and 'inappropriate' is very vague, but I guess that is the price that we pay for 'free speech' - some of that speech can get uncomfortable. "Life's tough... wear a cup..."

I also get that this is a privately owned site and it is entirely up to Kalmback what rules we have to abide by to participate. If we don't like the rules, or the community that results from the rules, we are free to go elsewhere.

There is something 'dead' at this site. at least for me. Is it due to the format changes, the destruction of Odds and Ends, and the more strict adherence to the rules? I don't know. However, I do know that I find only a fraction of the pleasure out of this site that I used to, and I get the sense that many of the 'old time' members feel the same way. Perhaps it doesn't matter - as we drift away a new crop of members will emerge and create their own sort of community.... All I know is, if anyone is looking for me, Dupes, Wing_nut and several others, you can find us at the Modeler's Social Club...

Thanks Bbrownii,I just registered over at that site,

good lord. this is what happened EVERYONE GO'S BLANK now and then some come and some go. and if some just want to rant on how bad a build is that's there problem let them. i just blank out the ones with nothing to say good. and if this wasn't here where the heck would people go. modeling is almost a dead craft here in the states. more popular in Europe. and i'll be buying the mag till hell freezes over and I HATE CHANGE

Clay

Tim and Aaron

I have been here now for 7 years. I have stayed all through the years mainly for my online friends. This site has gone through many changes and ups and downs. Now I only patronize the armor forum. Over the past few years there has been a slow decline in members. Now, in my opinion the usage and number of members is the worst I have ever seen. There are a very few ( count on one hand) of old timers. I am also over on Modelers Social Club, where by the way about 30 of the old regular Armor modelers from FSM now reside.

I will hang in here as long as I can but I will tell you this site for the first time has become boring. I understand what you are saying Tim and it reads like a well written company line. As someone who has been here a long while I use words like stale, boring, lack of direction, and generally lack of enthusiasm to describe the current site.

As Aaron knows and Tim for your benefit, either of you can speak to me offline anytime.

Off my soap box......

Rounds Complete!!  

There's another large group of expats over on Scale Plastic & Rail (sparforums.com), too. With a very big influx over the weekend. It seems pretty obvious to me that a lot of longtime members have become very disillusioned with this forum and if they aren't outright leaving, they're certainly backburnering their presence here. I know I have, since the format change seemed to knock down the activity around here by about half. And Tim, a good portion of that list of members you gave have done the same.

I don't mean to be a downer, but something is plainly rotten in the state of Denmark, and I don't think being pollyanna-ish about it is doing anybody any favors. I don't think that it's just "if only we would post more about modeling". There's something that's fundamentally broken right now. IMO acknowledging that and actively seeking to redress it would do you guys a ton of good.

I check the site out and the rules is that you must post or you will be banned. I have recently returned to the hobby and read and learn. I post rarely,but I do post. Do to the fact that I have yet anything to add. It's sounds a bit like beginners not welcome. I could be wrong.

I dunno-  I still enjoy exchanging information here, and I don't consider it to be a "social site" like facebook or whatever.  I've learned a lot of modeling tips, and enjoy sharing my experiences with others, and that's what it's all about.  A few humorous exchanges now and then make it enjoyable.  

Gone , gone 

I was thinking of making a come back but it seems as though there has been a serious drop off in participation.

Steve58

I check the site out and the rules is that you must post or you will be banned. I have recently returned to the hobby and read and learn. I post rarely,but I do post. Do to the fact that I have yet anything to add. It's sounds a bit like beginners not welcome. I could be wrong.

As far as I know there isn't a problem with beginners,most of us welcome beginners,and if I see a new post of a build from a new guy,I will comment.It does go two ways however,if you are new,it is your obligation to become involved in your community,you can always comment on what you like about somebody's build.

Yes, I always enjoy sharing my long years of experience with beginners to return the favors others have bestowed on me, many years past.  I have come a long way in this hobby and have a lot of help to offer, and it makes me feel good being able to do so.

redleg12

Tim and Aaron

I have been here now for 7 years. I have stayed all through the years mainly for my online friends. This site has gone through many changes and ups and downs. Now I only patronize the armor forum. Over the past few years there has been a slow decline in members. Now, in my opinion the usage and number of members is the worst I have ever seen. There are a very few ( count on one hand) of old timers. I am also over on Modelers Social Club, where by the way about 30 of the old regular Armor modelers from FSM now reside.

I will hang in here as long as I can but I will tell you this site for the first time has become boring. I understand what you are saying Tim and it reads like a well written company line. As someone who has been here a long while I use words like stale, boring, lack of direction, and generally lack of enthusiasm to describe the current site.

As Aaron knows and Tim for your benefit, either of you can speak to me offline anytime.

Off my soap box......

Rounds Complete!!  

Well said, Mike. You summarized in two paragraphs what I babbled on about for 6!

M1Carbine

I was thinking of making a come back but it seems as though there has been a serious drop off in participation.

Just do it Bob. 

I'd be here more, except my work schedule is quite brutal.

The changing of the format initially bugged me, but I like it and have always had constant changes at my old job with software. People just need to grow up and accept it. It's not that big a deal.

It would be nice to have an old Odds & Ends forum back, but members or trolls will always find a way to ruin it for everyone with their soapbox shenanigans.

Steve58

I check the site out and the rules is that you must post or you will be banned. I have recently returned to the hobby and read and learn. I post rarely,but I do post. Do to the fact that I have yet anything to add. It's sounds a bit like beginners not welcome. I could be wrong.

Beginners are very much welcome, and honestly I would say this is one of the more beginner-friendly forums out there. All of us have been beginners are one point (or more than one point!), and most who post (posted?) here remember that. 

But to get the most out of a forum, this or any other, you have to participate. Even if you feel like you're at a beginner level, you can still comment on others' builds, or jump in and ask how something was done, why it was done a certain way, or what's the point of X technique...honestly participating in a good forum will push your modeling skills further, faster than any tool or brand of paint. 

Well since I was called out by name in here by the powers that be, I will add my 2 cents on this subject.

First off thank you for the kind words. I truly appreciate being put in with those first rate modelers and being called a helpful productive member here. I could not ask for more.

Now, I gotta say this: I LOVE FSM site and the Magazine. I first started coming on here while I was on deployment with the Guard overseas as a new way to keep in touch with this great hobby on any day that I was not outside the wire and had internet access. As such FSM has a very special place to me. Active participation here has led me to the local IPMS (Many thanks to Duke Maddog/Mark) and from there in to AMPS. Both are wonderful organizations that I wholeheartedly recommend. And like I have said before I am not leaving here. I am stubborn and will stay following the rules here. But I am not blind to what has been going on and BBIII and Redleg summed up my own observations and feelings pretty well. Beyond their points, it feels like we are walking on eggshells here lately, and that when I am posting, I am talking to an empty room. And that is the real shame. I have no qualms with those who violate the forum rules being punished accordingly. That is life. But it does seem that for the recent past, more of a group punishment approach has been taken in the deletion of entire threads and forums rather than targeting the specific violators. And that has  stamped out the fun spirit in here.

Yes, I have signed on to other sites recently. Why? Because that is where people ARE talking and posting. I do hope that things return to a better, more active state here. I'll still be around. But if there is no one who posts for me to say someting about, or replies to my posts, I won't be doing much talking in the empty room. Cherry or Master Guru are all needed here to make this place fun and active.

Stick

Your point on the empty room is seconded. Totally agree.

For those newbees who read this please do not take this wrong and I always appreciate see newbies look in. We need a LOT more of you to get this back to the way it was.

Stick, this was family here, and when we came on to the forum it was like a family gathering. Now it is like everyone has moved away!!

Still watching from my bunker

Rounds Complete!!

There's no denying that the forums have undergone a significant change in the past few months. I will admit to not wandering outside the comfort zone of the Armor forum much so I don't have any idea what's been happening in other areas or with other users and have been blithely ignorant of the various controversies that seem to have sprung up as a result. Perhaps that's a good thing judging by some of the comments that have been posted.

Ever since the forum format changed, there was a noticeable shift in the posting frequency and response rates but I chalked that up to the fact that the filters on the 'read/unread' posts wasn't working correctly and once people figured that out things would return to a more normal flow. For whatever reason or combination of reasons, that hasn't happened and the flow of the Armor forum has definitely dropped as a result.

Online communities are always evolving and changing and FSM has always been a special place since I first discovered it back in 2002. A lot of people have come and gone and returned and left again in that period of time, it's part of the nature of the beast and is not necessarily a bad thing so long as a core of activity continues to happen and foster interaction. I fear that core is now in danger of falling apart but that's not something that's inevitable and is wholly dependent on the attitudes and levels of participation of the members here.

The 'empty room' syndrome mentioned is a serious problem in my view. When people don't get the 'personal' reinforcement that comes form responses, discussion, and comments then they will just quietly slip away and go where they do receive that kind of confirmation that their posts/contributions have value.

I have always frequented other forums because diversity is a good thing and they all have their plus and minus qualities to them. I hope that the members here will continue to participate and use the 'subscribe' function to threads to keep up to date even if they aren't around as much as before. I know there was a time when you could count on a steady stream of comments from the 'regulars' on any particular build that was running but that stream of 'regulars' has been diminishing. Perhaps our 'lurker' friends will step up and fill the void?

Personally I will continue to post and comment and show what's happening on my bench where appropriate because FSM was my 'first home' on the internet...the first place that I wasn't afraid to show my work, ask for comments, and get support vs. other places that were less than inviting at the time.

Any forum is only as good as the members who belong and participate!

wbill76

Personally I will continue to post and comment and show what's happening on my bench where appropriate because FSM was my 'first home' on the internet...the first place that I wasn't afraid to show my work, ask for comments, and get support vs. other places that were less than inviting at the time.

Any forum is only as good as the members who belong and participate!

Hear! Hear! (or is it Here! Here! )

or to paraphrase a favorite movie:Harumph! Harumph! Harumph!

The format changes are a serious PITA! I wanted to quote a post in this thread,but how to do it?

I miss the OT section and despise mods sweeping in and locking/deleting topics because we weren't discussing plastic.I just don't enjoy it around here like I used to.

Its gone

TD4438

The format changes are a serious PITA! I wanted to quote a post in this thread,but how to do it?

I miss the OT section and despise mods sweeping in and locking/deleting topics because we weren't discussing plastic.I just don't enjoy it around here like I used to.

TD , click the "reply" button of the post you want to quote , then click the "enriched format" button ( why its called "enriched" gets me , reminds me of Wonder bread  ) , now at the bottom of the other persons post there will be a "quote" in green , click that and their post will be there for you to type under . If you still cant figure it out just ask for clarification . So many steps for so little ........................

I like the new forum that many of the guys moved to,But I see no reason to abandon this one,there are still plenty of great people here.

Gone

Hi guys,

I admit it has slowed down but it is still, by FAR, my favourite forum

I've learnt a lot on here and continue to do so and above all have made some EXCELLENT friends- keep it up everyone!

I've been spending ALL of my recent FSM time concentrating on the 'Steel Cat's' GB run by Tigerman so I haven't been on the main Armour section for a while - that's all.

All the best,

Ben

Let me clear up my last statement. I was referring to the  Modelers Social Club.

Bill

Well said, and as another of the armor forum regulars thanks for adding your comments.

Now Aaron & Tim,

if you go through the armor forum and look for the older regulars who post here....you will find Shell, Stick WBill, and myself and others. All of this discussion and this entire posting would not be happening if we all did not see a problem. As Bill and others have stated we have seen members come and go...we have seen changes. This time is different and there is some fundamental problems.

All of the regulars who have posted in this tread have the same basic loyalty to FSM. BUT be careful...if this continues or gets worse, even loyal friends will leave. I don't want to see these forums become a Dodo bird.

I suggest rather than having a "company line" you may want to think about a limited survey to members with over a particular amount of posts and years on the site (PS one thing that I hate is the loss of that info....the stars are bovine scatology). Say 10 or so from each major forum area and get their ideas to fix the mess. What did we like from the past.... what would we want to see in the future.

Most of the regulars here are like family and would be more than willing to help....its your house but it is our home. You family is telling your house we don't want to find a new home. Also if we did not care, we would not go through the effort to post in this thread.

OK....off my ammunition crate

Rounds Complete!!