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Canadian Army ressurects old school ranks and divisional patches

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  • Member since
    February, 2011
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Canadian Army ressurects old school ranks and divisional patches
Posted by gunner_chris on Monday, July 08, 2013 1:24 PM

Formalizing old rank names, changes to ranks, and divisional structure reintroduced. 

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=4880

part of the DND undoing a lot of the "unification".

  • Member since
    March, 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Monday, July 08, 2013 2:12 PM

Good stuff there.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    January, 2012
  • From: Barrie, Ontario
Posted by Cdn Colin on Monday, July 08, 2013 5:54 PM

We were using most of those ranks back in the '90's, when I was in.

I build 1/48 scale WW2 fighters.

Have fun.

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Monday, July 08, 2013 8:39 PM

OK, now I am curious, what happened where these have to be re introduced?

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    February, 2011
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by gunner_chris on Monday, July 08, 2013 8:54 PM

In 1968 someone had an awesome idea called unification.

Essentially the Royal Canadian Navy, Royal Canadian Air force and Canadian Army ceased to be separate entities and they came together under the Canadian Armed Forces.  Much of the rank structure based on the British system was changed and many rank titles were abolished.  

For example in the artillery a private is known as a 'gunner', but on his/her pay and documents they are known as a private.  Now he or she will actually hold the rank of gunner

The current government is on a heritage kick, bringing back the RCAF etc etc and now going back to divisions from 'command areas'

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Monday, July 08, 2013 10:53 PM

Very cool! Now perhaps we can try a 21st Century version the 1st Special Service Force...  After all, those Canadians introduced berets into US Army uniforms.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    May, 2005
Posted by pyrman64 on Tuesday, July 09, 2013 7:29 AM

stikpusher
Very cool! Now perhaps we can try a 21st Century version the 1st Special Service Force...  After all, those Canadians introduced berets into US Army uniforms.

Actually, the wearing of black berets came from the British Royal Tank Regiment which adopted them back in 1924, based on the Scottish highland bonnet and French Bretonne beret.  Ain't got nuttin' to do with you Cunucks! Confused

Greg H

"There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all hell." Gen. Wm T. Sherman (11 April 1880, Columbus, Ohio)

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Tuesday, July 09, 2013 9:25 AM

But the first American soldiers to wear them in the US Army as part of their US Army uniform were in the FSSF after they completed their jump training. The Canadian troopers wore the Maroon Berets of thier British Para brothers, so the US contingent adopted them as well. The crossed arrows of today's SF Branch insignia and the arrowhead shape of the patch are lineage related to the FSSF. Both also came from that unit. I'm not saying it was Canucks,,, but it was Canucks!  

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    May, 2005
Posted by pyrman64 on Tuesday, July 09, 2013 5:41 PM

stikpusher
But the first American soldiers to wear them in the US Army as part of their US Army uniform were in the FSSF after they completed their jump training. WRONG! The Canadian troopers wore the Maroon Berets of thier British Para brothers, so the US contingent adopted them as well.WRONG! The crossed arrows of today's SF Branch insignia and the arrowhead shape of the patch are lineage related to the FSSF. Both also came from that unit. I'm not saying it was Canucks,,, but it was Canucks!WRONG! 

The US Army's adoption of the beret, I'l type s.....l.....o....w....l.....y so you understand, goes back to the British.....PERIOD!  After testing in 1955, the 77th Special Forces Group (Airborne) at Fort Bragg specified, still unofficially, that its soldiers wear a beret of Canadian Army design in rifle green. That is the only involvement from you canucks......PERIOD!

As for the maroon beret, again...it's a BRITISH thing (again!) The maroon beret has been the international symbol of airborne forces since its selection for use by the British Parachute Regiment in 1942. The color reportedly was chosen by novelist Daphne Du Maurier, the wife of the British airborne commander, MG Frederick Browning. In 1943 MG Browning granted a battalion of the US Army's 509th Parachute Infantry Regiment honorary membership in the British Parachute Regiment and authorized them to wear British maroon berets.

BTW, originally (from 1890 to 1926), crossed arrows were prescribed for wear by Indian Scouts. During World War II, the crossed arrows were worn as collar insignia by officers and enlisted personnel assigned to the First Special Service Force. As for the patch.....The arrowhead shape represents the  craft and stealth of the Native American Warriors who inspired the First  Special Service Force and reflect the skill of the Special Forces Soldier. The  upturned dagger represents the Fairbairn-Sykes knife used by British Commandos  in World War II, a version of which was also used by members of the Office of  Strategic Services (OSS). Three bolts of lightning bisecting the dagger evoke  the unconventional nature of Special Forces operations and represent their  ability to strike or infiltrate rapidly by air, water or land. (I don't see anything about canucks in the history-why do you keep trying to take credit for it?!) Confused

Greg H

"There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all hell." Gen. Wm T. Sherman (11 April 1880, Columbus, Ohio)

  • Member since
    February, 2011
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by gunner_chris on Tuesday, July 09, 2013 6:16 PM

I'm sure stikpusher will chime in at some point but I'm pretty sure he is ex (or maybe current) US military, and I believe he is offering to give credit to the Canadians.  Not one Canadian has tried to take credit.

Canadians do wear berets, along with balmorals and I forget the headress of the argyle regiments all of which have roots back to the British.

I think the point being made is the partnership of the FSSF is what forged the moe forward for the US adaptation of the beret.  Of course there is a British tie, but the US/Canadian unit was te catalyst which moved it forward.

  • Member since
    May, 2005
Posted by pyrman64 on Tuesday, July 09, 2013 9:25 PM

gunner_chris
Of course there is a British tie, but the US/Canadian unit was te catalyst which moved it forward.

REALLY?!  And yet NONE of the US Army's official history (or any other researcher) say's that!  I didn't just make up the info I posted to debunk Stik....it came from the US Army and multiple other sources.  YES, the FSSF was mentioned, BUT there is documentation of PRIOR US Army units wearing a beret...I won't even mention use by the OSS!

The US Army's beret dates back to the BRITISH Royal Tank Corps, which started wearing the black beret back in 1918...which became official in 1924. For further history on the US Army's beret, go here: http://www.army.mil/features/beret/beret.htm which states "After testing in 1955, the 77th Special Forces Group (Airborne) at Fort Bragg specified, still unofficially, that its soldiers wear a beret of Canadian Army design in rifle green."

Greg H

"There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all hell." Gen. Wm T. Sherman (11 April 1880, Columbus, Ohio)

  • Member since
    January, 2012
  • From: Barrie, Ontario
Posted by Cdn Colin on Tuesday, July 09, 2013 9:43 PM

I really don't see the point in the argument.  The fact is we are culturally very similar, and that extends to our armed forces.  There has been an incredible amount of equipment commonality over the years.

Our accent is a lot closer to American than British.

I build 1/48 scale WW2 fighters.

Have fun.

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 12:41 AM

OK, Pyre, relax... I was a US Army paratrooper, not Canadian. Retired now. I was paying tribute to our brothers to the north. I have served in SF and LRS units, and am a little familiar with the things you refer to, typing slowly or fast. I read at a constant speed.I do not recall where I read about the Canadians in the FSSF introducing the Maroon Beret to the US Army, but I do recall reading it many many years back. The 509th information is interestng and makes sense. They served alongside the British Paras in North Africa,  nd Italy in 1942 and 1943. As far as the Black beret goes, well, not my concern. Those are issued, not earned in US service since it went armywide. Not as a result of passing RIP as used to be, or some other unit rite of passage. I earned my Maroon one. I do know that they have been traditional British Tanker headgear. Yes I am well aware of the British origins of the beret as US military headgear. And the Green one as well, having served in Group once upon a time... Now as far as the official party line of dating the current US Army Black beret to the British Tank Corps of WWI, well if the Chief of Staff said so... US Army lineage is a funny thing when you study it. Sometmes it takes some twists and turns- Current day SF claims lineage of the WWII Ranger Battalions among other units, and the current Ranger Regiment claims the lineage of the 5307th Composite Force- Merrils Marauders.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    May, 2005
Posted by pyrman64 on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 9:48 AM

stikpusher
 I was a US Army paratrooper, not Canadian. Retired now.

Well, thank you for your sevice.

stikpusher
 I earned my Maroon one. 

I earned a green one, but mine also came with the Kepi blanc!

stikpusher
US Army lineage is a funny thing when you study it. Sometmes it takes some twists and turns- Current day SF claims lineage of the WWII Ranger Battalions among other units, and the current Ranger Regiment claims the lineage of the 5307th Composite Force- Merrils Marauders.

Ain't that the truth.  BTW, my uncle (Sgt Alex Szima) was one of Darby's originals....until late Nov `43, when a mortar round came in while he & his best friend were eating lunch.  It killed his friend and left him in the hospital until mid-46.

Greg H

"There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all hell." Gen. Wm T. Sherman (11 April 1880, Columbus, Ohio)

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 11:04 AM

I have read of your uncle. I presume for your post that you served in the Legion?

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    March, 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 11:35 AM

I had a white Dixie cup. They could be used for a lot of things, but the best one was that the chicks dug them. Big Smile

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    May, 2005
Posted by pyrman64 on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 5:33 PM

stikpusher
I have read of your uncle. I presume for your post that you served in the Legion?

Yes....1982-1985 (2e REI) forced out due to wounds

 

subfixer
I had a white Dixie cup. They could be used for a lot of things, but the best one was that the chicks dug them. Big Smile

I had a Dixie Riddle Cup......it kept the girls guessing!WinkStick out tongue

Greg H

"There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all hell." Gen. Wm T. Sherman (11 April 1880, Columbus, Ohio)

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 5:42 PM

I'll tell you what, put the brim down on the Dixie Cup, and it is a much more practical piece of headgear than a beret...Propeller

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    February, 2011
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by gunner_chris on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 8:00 PM

If you want an impractical piece of headdress you should have seen our previous bush hats.

Some people had a good form to them and they looked sharp,  most they looked like OD lamp shades.

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 8:43 PM

well those at least keep the sun out of your eyes and rain off of your face... gotta love a good bush hat like a good cowboy stetson...

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

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