i would like some input on this

Ah yes, the double edged sword that cuts both ways. Yes not being able to produce a top notch model without lots of money and AM may turn off some newer builders, those same items also give newer builders the ability to improve without alot of scratch building, improvisation, etc. Not that long ago the 10 most lists in differnt areas remained the same. Modelers were happy to see something new that was not the same old thing. Now it seems we get new releases of obscure subjects frequently, and mainstream subjects are neglected or overdone by all makers. How many kits of the Bf-109/Spitfire/P-51 are there in one scale compared to say, the F2H or F9F. All were historically significant aircraft built in good numbers. Yet the former are kitted until you an find one by nearly every producer, while the latter are seldom tackeled.

And again, I must point out costs. Revell Monogram can put out a new release of a kit that is quite comperable to anything done by Hasegawa or Tamiya at a far lower cost- go compare the F-84G, F-15E, or F/A-18E/F. With the cost of a new import kit a minimum of $20 or more, how many young modelers can be attracted in to the hobby? Without new young blood this hobby will perish. Now mind you, I have a stash that I am sure will last longer than I live, I seriously doubt many of the companies that produce them will. There is a shortage of kits out there today geared toward the novice modeler. If all they cater to is the advanced modeler with ever more pricey kits answering the call for more obscure and detailed variants of whatever is the fascination of the time, the hobby will implode more quickly.

And it's the "instant gratification" culture we live in. Even for those who build rapidly and well, patience is a well developed virtue. Not so for most in our society. Look at the increasing popularity of die cast.

Our society would be much better off if people would learn to take the time to smell the styrene/flowers/whatever. Life is not a race—the first to the finish line lose. 

While I can add all the bells and whistles to any kit I decide to build, and have the discretionary income at my disposal, I still enjoy building kits straight OOB. I visit the local Hobby Lobby with their 40% off coupons and often buy one of the Tamiya kits. Since they are mainly very nice WW2 German armor kits and I am not a particular fan of that genre, I just enjoy building the kit as it comes.

I don't do much/any research, although I may read a review on that particular kit prior to building it just to see where any construction issues may lie. My enjoyment comes out of just assembling the kit (something we used to refer as model building).

I normally do not post photos because I know that many of the German armor experts (they've taken photos of that vehicle at a museum and thumbed through the Osprey book) will tell me that the Tamiya kit was wrong, and that the markings never were worn on that model and the vehicle camouflage is incorrect, and that I should have used the Aber PE, Model Point barrel, Fruil tracks, Hornet heads, etc.

My response would be, see paragraph #2 above. I particulary like Tamiya's new Marder III series, those are little gems.

This is a complicated issue. The got to have it now...instant gratification part of our society has lead to all of these prebuilt prepainted and mostly assembled models. Those in many cases cost nearly the same as the unbuilt kits. This trend will change once the labor costs in those countries that produce them equalize to those of the countries that consume the products (global economy). The trend will reverse back to where kits are cheaper than prefinished.

There is a lot of garbage being desiminated that the industry is doomed. Well when you have both feet firmly planted in it you see a much different picture. Yes, the economy is influencing the market...it applies to everything not just the hobby industry. Yes, companies in this industry are being affected to various levels...the average answer from my colleagues seems to be we're doing "Okay."  Which to me means it is a break even or slightly above that situation. There are those companies that are doing extremely well too!  I know my business is down, but I understand and accept that fact due to the current economic situation. I can and do believe that when the ecomomy improves so will my business.

In regards to models, aftermarket accessories and pricing...it all boils down to choices. It is the modeler/consumer who makes the decisions about what to purchase and build. There are those who scream that they are tired of companies releasing the old "inferior" kits because they lack the sophistification of the modern releases. But they do have a vital place in the market...namely to meet certain pricepoints. Twenty First Century Toys kits are good kits at a great price point. There were those individuals who still think those kits aren't worth the resources to make them. Yet these kits disappeared from shelves as fast as they are stocked. Why, they turned out to be models with potential!

When I was a novice modeler (a kid) I had the options to purchase those "high end" kits...Tamiya, Hasegawa etc but my allowance only facilitated Airfix, Monogram, Revell...I cut my modeling teeth on those kits because they were the only ones I could afford. Same holds true still today...there are those modelers who have a budget level that necessitates availability of such kits. 

The old argument about those who assemble and those who are real modelers follows the line between substandard old school rereleases and modern "shake n bake" kits. One requires a modeler to build the other only needs assembly. Whether you add aftermarket or make your own scratchbuild parts is yours the modelers choice alone. Over the years there have been some models that were considered nothing more that a sows ear, yet turned out to be silk purses in the hands of a competent modeler. John Vojtech's B-2 bomber comes to mind. It included scratchbuilt components which were complimented with aftermarket stuff. Which won great acclaim worldwide.

From a business perspective, those companies that continue to rerelease the old kits do so for two reasons...cash...they use these cash cows to substain cashflow. The cost to produce is nearly nothing in comparison to tooling up a new offering. This cash pays the bills so they can afford to tool new offerings. Secondly they still sell! They have a place in the market which is evident in their sales volume. Manufacturers would not gamble that much of their financial resources to produce something that provide no ROI.

Just as GM still offers their Buick line when they could just produce Cadillacs. Both accomplish the same thing...transportation...but not all consumers can afford the higher end vehicles. Same principle applies to scale modeling...not everyone can afford the higher end kits.

Modeling is full of choices...each one is up to the modeler. Many have stated that they are into "retro" modeling. Turning toward their stashes only to build what they have on hand until the prices start towards a more affordable level. Matt Usher's latest editorial discusses this in the November issue. 

My economic situation has changed drastically over the past couple of years. I've had to make some very tough lifestyle and economic decisions which include my hobby. Those new releases that I just gotta have...well they too must be mulled over in my mind as to whether or not the jingle in my pocket is sufficient to purchase them or is there something more pressing than the acquisition of another kit to add to the stash. I have sufficient resources on hand in my workshop to last me decades...other than paint and adhesives. My spares stash alone could support another couple of decades of building projects...so adding something else to the pile though exciting does have consequences. It again boils down to basic choices or what's right or wrong, what's good or bad for my particular situation.

Yes there is a yes or no, right or wrong...good or bad answer. It does depend specifically on your situation. Just look for the positive aspects and do not dwell on the negatives. 

Listen to the Voice of Experience!

Good reply, Jerry!

...Turning toward their stashes only to build what they have on hand until the prices start towards a more affordable level. Matt Usher's latest editorial discusses this in the November issue.

I just read that editorial... I also noticed that the next page following it (not the two-page ad from ModelExpo), the Spotlight section, is a full page on after-market stuff... Including, of all freakin' things, resin TARPS!... Gimme a break....

Well it shows me that free enterprise is alive and well. If it is something not to your liking, so be it. There are things I think rediculous being sold these days too...like little containers  (small mouthful) of trail mix for a $1.99 when you can purchase a bag for another dollar and a half that would fill more than dozen of those containers.

Consumers are willing to pay for convenience, there are those who purchase frozen "TV" dinners at the grocery when they could spend far less, get a more nutritious and healthier meal, if they'd just cook for themselves. Yet they make a choice not to cook and take the convenient way out. Unfortunately, they'll pay elsewhere in life for their choices.

There are those too who cannot or do not wish to get their fingers sticky using some white glue and tissue to make their own tarps. As long as there is a market, why not capitalize on it. There are so called modelers who attend model club meetings that have never assembled anything themselves...so be it...they know not what they miss.

Believe it or not there are still those folks out there who can purchase a home, boat, car or anything else they want...if someone wants to buy resin tarps...let them. The choice is theirs and free enterprise provides for that choice. Someone had to make those resin parts, just as I had to develop the products I manufacture and sell. There is always a gamble that if you build a better mouse trap no one will want it, they have something already that works just fine. The market will sift the wheat from the chaff...tarps might be the next best thing since resin tires...time will tell. I'll mark you down as a definite: Sorry not interested.

One other question it is obvious that you do read the "Spotlight and New Products" pages. Would you miss them if they weren't included in the magazine? For some, print media is the only way they learn about what is new in our hobby...strange as it may seem there are folks who don't have computers or Internet access, whether by choice or chance. 

Would you miss them if they weren't included in the magazine?

Honestly, no...  FSM is not the best magazine that's out there, it just happens to be easiest for me to aquire...  Pretty much the entire mag is an advertisement, a sales catalogue with a few articles thrown in from time to time to keep it honest... The long out-of-print, reader-driven Scale Modeler and Military Modeler magazines were far better magazines for the average modeler, with more in-depth articles,  IMHO... But that's another thread... Suffice to say that it's likely they folded  because they didn't chase after the ad dollar like FSM and din't have all the slick paper color photos...  But Kalmbach does what it's gotta do, like everyone else...  At any rate, guess I'll remain "old School"... Sign me, "I fear change"...

Hell, I'm still usin' the same computer with Windows 98 I bought ten years ago and see no reason to change that, either... And before you ask, No... My car doesn't have a hand-crank and yes, my bathroom is inside...       

Hans von Hammer wrote:

And before you ask, No... My car doesn't have a hand-crank and yes, my bathroom is inside...

Yeah but does it have a floor mounted starter switch?

Hans von Hammer wrote:

At any rate, guess I'll remain "old School"... Sign me, "I fear change"...

That makes Two of us... Hans speaking of old Publications have you ever had the pleasure of reading "Dirty Plastic" it was put out by Arizona Historical Modelers Society IMPS/ Phoenix ? What a Great Publication, No Adds just usefull Information..

What about the effect the internet has on budding modellers ?  30 years ago, we were building kits and trying vainly to recreate Shep Paines brilliance.  But as far as our level of competancy compared to others....well maybe you and your buddies could get together and compare builds, or look at magazine articles on completed builds.  You would look at a finished kit and say "hey, I like it".  Now, any new modeller only has to log on to a website like this one see see builds that have mega-AM parts added to reach that certain level.  Which in turn feeds the idea that you need AM parts to reach that perfect standard.

It will be difficult to attract teenagers (often with limited budgets)  when you have relatively well off adult modellers who dont blink at spending $100 bucks on AM parts. 

The am parts thing is funny. A model that is top in it's class, built by a experienced modeler and loaded up with all the goodies is not in th same class as a out of box academy or revell kit. That's like saying well I want a car but my budget will only allow me to get a chevy cobalt (revell). The neighbor has a farreri F-40 so If a want to keep up with them I need a hand built race car or why buy any car at all (tamiya). You could apply this to houses, jobs, models whatever. I think many of the people who look down on am parts becasue they themselves are either imtimidated by that level of building or do not want to spend the money/time and feel there builds are less due to the lack of such items (in some cases not all). You have to see what the builder want out of it. If you do not like messing with all that suff then that's your choice. Others do not build out of box at all, again modelers choice.

I am building a very accurate 1/32 fw190D-11. I have about 200 dollars in AM parts, conversion kit and various other things. In the end I will have about 300+ hours in build and reasearch time invested. I'm also building a academy 1/48 corsair out of box. I wil have about 20 hours of time vested. The corsair is no less of a build than the D-11. Why, I never intended the corsair to be anything more than it is. The corsair is what I built it to be and in that capacity it's as good as any. In my mind one build is not better than another, just different. The same is true for say revell and tamiya. The revell kit is not in the same class as a tamiya kit. But you can get it for 15 bucks the new 1/48 tamiya zero is 50! which is better?  depends on who's buying it. This is how I see it. I build on both sides of the fence.  

Here is part of the dilema the whole hobby industry faces, attracting the younger generations. For us, we were given exposure to the hobby through direct contact with someone else who was involved in it in some form or fashion. A friend, grandparent, parent or sibling. Those who are returning to the hobby are doing so because they had a good life experience with it. Their initial contact with the hobby was positive and feel it is something they're wanting to try again.

Driving a child to scale modeling through direct adverstising is IMO a waste of resources. Attracting kids would be better accomplished by experiencing it though someone they feel comfortable around and with...teachers, parents, grandparents...and yes their siblings. The same sources we discovered the hobby initially. There are those who will try the hobby directly as some of us did but if the experience was at all bad...they don't return. Make and Takes plants a positive experience in the back of their minds. Odds are they will return at some point to feel the same sensations.

Too much is being marketing to kids...including much that shouldn't, our hobby like other healthy things is just lost in the static. We need to encourage those resources I mentioned to lure the kids to experience the hobby. It is proven that when kids directly interact they tend to focus on the topic more...hence the reason computers are so popular.

As fewer adults have any life experience with this hobby, exposure to children lessens with each and every generation. We need to reverse that trend. If we don't then not just interest in this hobby will dwindle but other related ones as well.

The key to getting kids is to go to the source that influences them most...MOM.

According to Marketing Sherpa, moms are among the most coveted consumers in the US market, with buying power topping $2.1 trillion annually ... and controlling 85% of the household income. You don't reach moms in the same way that you reach the largely male hobby demographic. But once you hook mom on the value of a hobby, the educational experience it provides for her kids, and the fact that they can engage in the hobby as a family - and have fun doing so, she'll become your best industry advocate.

Again it is vital that clubs and organizations provide portal of exposure to the hobby for children to experience hands on. Our hobby is both a visual and tactile one...children learn better being able to incorporate both. Give them a positive experience through direct contact and they will embrace it, especially if it is a positive experience.

In regards to AM...you don't need them to make a great model. There are those models built packed full of AM accessories. Only to be immediately disqualified for a model without any because the builder of the super deluxe all the bells and whistles failed to follow the basics of modeling. Time and time again a heated discussions result as to "why did the judges reject my model it has everything detailed...the other one has nothing!" Everything except quality of craftsmanship. I rarely use aftermarket...when I do I ensure I am not relying on it to carry the model over poor technique.

Well put, Gerald.

As a young kid I was introduced to modeling by my parents. Mom used to bring home a snap together on weekends when she picked up my half brother and sister for a visit. Somewhere along the way, I'm not sure where, I developed an interest in aircraft. I'm blaming it on the old show "Baa, Baa Blacksheep". I loved the drama of the program, loved to see the "good guys" win. I felt like the Corsair was invincible. My modeling hobby snowballed from there.

My interest was nurtured by many of my uncles. It seems that mom's side of the family was a family of modelers. What kept me modeling through the years was trying to live up to the percieved standard that they built to coupled with my increasing love of aircraft. Having three model building family members that I saw regularly kept my interest up. I wanted my work to be as good as theirs so I kept it up. We went to airshows together, we went to the US airforce museum together, we built together for years.

I think times have changed and people have changed along with them. Today everyone is aware of how fast life moves. Instant gratification has already been covered so I'll no beat that horse anymore. Had there been internet, Ipods, cell phones, video games and MTV back in those days I'm not sure I'd have picked up modeling like I had. Life was simpler then and anything outside the front door was foriegn, strange, scary. I was perfectly content to spend hours in my room flying a half put together mustang in circles, using my imagination to shoot down germans over Berlin.

Out the back door was a whole new adventure and during the daylight hours, providing there was no rain, that's where I was. Outside seeking adventure in some places I'm sure I was not supposed to be. Mom would have to come yell for ten minutes to get me to come home for dinner. But after dark the focus shifted to the models and usually into the wee hours of the morning.

As I aged some things changed. I found cars, discovered the alure ot the fairer sex (all went down hill from there), graduation followed by a stint in the navy. job here, there. But for the most part I always built until I met my exwife to be. Never built again until we split and I don't know why. One thing is for sure. When we split I found there was a hole that I needed to fill and I started remembering the long hours of peacful contentment and enjoyment I got from modeling.  I longed for the satifaction of seeing a project come together. The memories of long uninterupted hours of freedom from the world that only a kid can enjoy started to return and I wanted to return to it, even if only for a short while at a time.

Today's society seems to not allow for people to slow down. Our kids are grilled nearly from birth to be better and fast than the next kid. We send them to school and monitor the report cards, passing judgement on the grades. We encourage sports, sending our youngsters to camps and programs to make them better. Schools constantly send home notices of needing another $40 or more for this program that will make little Jimmy or Susie better, smarter, faster than the school down the road or in the next county. Our sons and daughters spend their summer vacations going to practice and training for the upcomming sports season. Kids are trained to never stop, never slow down.

Society grills todays children in the art of one upmanship. It first teaches them selfishness. "It's all about you and your hope, desires, dreams! Don't let anyone get in your way!" Then confuses with "But don't offend anyone along the way, be nice! Help others!" Kids are taught that imagination is good only if everyone else says it is. No longer can Jimmy fly his airplane around the room shooting down Germans, it isn't nice to the Germans and someone may get offended. He can't go out and shoot imaginary indians out of the trees in the backyard, someone may get offended. Susie can't pretend to cook up supper for her imaginary husband because she's supposed to be equal and go have a career.

Where is the time for being a kid? Where is the time for going outside and digging in the flower bed to find china or worms? Where is the time for running around the yard defending the world from aliens from Cosmo? Where is the time for parents instilling some ground work, taking time to play along with and therefore gently guide little Jimmy and Susie along a path that they will remember and return to for years to come. Why does life not allow for things to be simple?

But I digress. Most kids today, by choice of society ultimately, have no desire to take the time and put in the effort to do something so seeming slow and mundane as modeling. Afterall, can they make a living doing it? Can it pay the bills or make them proserous? More than likely not so why do it, right? We as adults are not nurturing the slow time, the time one needs to take in the beauty of the clear blue sky, the color of the beetle in the bush, the smell of the lilacs in spring. Instead we tend to point out the polution in the sky, that the beetle is eating mom's tomatoes and the lilac bush is blocking the view of the street.

If it seems our kids have no interest in our hobbies then the fault is our own. My family helped me develop an interest in many hobbies, probably to there dismay, hobbies can get expensive. There was no resin back in those days, not an aftermarket to be heard of, really. Whether or not a kid gets a $5 kit or a $50 kit matters not to the kid. Showing them how to focus on an interest, spraying paint in the driveway, getting glue on the fingers, being there to laugh and not to scold for the paint on the floor, making it a good experience, this is what will help our kids in the long run and stave off all the doom and gloom about our dying hobby.

So go get your kid a cheap kit, take him to a museum. Invite him or her to experience something and see where it goes. And for once leave out your own hangups on how many AM goodies are going in it or how perfect the paint is. Help them along the way to create something and feel proud of it. Let them develop the interest themselves and then foster it, embrace it and guide them along. Some will enjoy it and continue, some won't. It's how we all began to model I bet. Make it ok to slow down and be a kid. Start young, before the techno world gets them.

I just had to come back and make a comment about the AM stuff.

Again, I agree with Gerald. It's not needed to make a good model. Infact. I believe I've come full circle on the subject. I started out thinking to be a great modeler one needed to be able to utilize the AM stuff, resin, PE and do it better than the next guy. Now, my thinking has gone a step further. Many a better modeler than I'll ever be don't even use AM. They build it all by scratch. I can use resin and PE and still do occasionally, but if I expect to grow in my abilities, if I want to reach the next level I'll need to be able to make the kit look like it has all the AM goodies when in reality it's all hand made, not bought and paid for.

I've a few kits in the stash with compliments of AM stuff but havent added to the AM for over a year now. I'll use it because I have it but beyond that I'm going to try and increase my scratch building skills and save some $. Is this attitude going to detrimental to the hobby and industry?

Now I don't want to get off on a rant here, BUT: 

I disagree with the premise that folks who don't use ready-made AM parts are intimidated by those who do... Rather, I think it's the other way around, with the habitual AM-user being intimidated by the scratch-builder... Nothing personal, but using a plethora of AM parts isn't a challenge in and of itself, since the hard work, finding the right material, designing, then making the part(s), is done for you... Craftsmanship, imagination, etc. aren't part of the AM mind-set.   Now, if you do your own photo-etching, metal gun-barrel turning, moldmaking and casting, and carving, shaping, and sanding masters, then you're on to something, IMHO... 

For instance, I vacuform my own aircraft canopies, panels, and consoles, I don't buy 'em...I spent the fifty bucks most folks spend on ONE kit's worth of AM parts, and bought the means to make parts... I use  a buck's worth of strip styrene and sprue to add internal details, I don't spend an extra 40 bucks on a kit that has it molded in for me (it's nice, but not required, by any means).  I use sheet styrene and heat and sandpaper to turn out a pilot's seat, not a photo-etched part from a bag on a pegboard. 

 Granted, not everyone can "see miniature" when they look at everyday objects, but the main reason for that is because they don't have to in order to compete anymore.   That runs off the younger builders in a hurried heartbeat... Besides, what do you do if that part you spent money on suddenly flies off into the Hinterlands and you can't find it?  Do you run down to the LHS and drop another 5-15 bucks on the same bag, or do you say, "Sh*t!" and go make another one?  If you didn't make the first one, it's pretty unlikely that you'll be able to make a replacement, knowwhutImean? I mean, for instance,  I've made dozens of seat harness parts, ignition wiring harnesses, rear-view mirrors, etc., but I've only used about 50 percent of 'em... The rest are in orbit somewhere, for all I know... Don't care, either. I can make more... 

This hobby needs more mentoring, less competion, and more focus on developing skills in scratchbuilding parts and details, and WAY less on how much money you can lay on the counter-top for brass & resin...    Frankly, I've been considering making my own line of parts, simply because if I do, some schmuck with too much money will buy 'em from me... 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not, say again not begrudging anyone who uses after-market, as sometimes it's a necessary evil, but one shouldn't have to depend on them in order to compete... I do use them from time to time, especially to replace missing parts, and I'll use 'em if there is simply no alternative, or they come with a kit...   I love to detail, I hate to spend money... So, for me, scratch is where it's at... The satisfaction I get is when my 12.00 Monogram with the scratch cockpit and kitbashed engine beats out the guy with the 100.00-worth of brass and resin on a 60.00 Hasegawa of the same type aircraft... It's worth way more than money, heh... 

The real trick is getting new folks to blow off the AM, and learn to look for parts everywhere else made from everything else... That ain't easy these days with the high-detail and AM craze going on...  Perhaps if the IMPS and AMPS were to push the spotlight and awards onto the scratchbuilder and only a casual nod to the AM-suoer-detaillers, this would push the hobby in the direction it needs to go, which is attracting younger modelers to it in greater numbers...

Us auld pharts had our day... Time to pass on what we've learned... But if all you have to pass on is how much extra you have to spend on a kit in order to compete, you can forget about any real growth in the hobby... 

All the demand for more and more detail to be added before you can open the box is what's killing this hobby; it's pricing kits way out of the reach of the very folks we need in the hobby...

That's just my opinion... I could be wrong...

hk-nicely put!

When I am standing in the aisle at the local hobby or craft/hobby store gawking at the models wondering if I really need another duplicated or one I might already have I pay attention to those around me. Occassionally I will see a mom, aunt, uncle or old simbling picking out a model for someone else. They stare and it is obvious they have no clue what is inside the packaging. Many look at the price sticker others ponder the subject.

Those models which drop bombs, shoot bullets and missiles seem to catch the attention of the purchaser as much as they perceive it would be by the person who will receive it. However, I step up and ask the person some very important questions...what is their builders experience level, do they have an interest in the subject and most importantly do they have the necessary items to assemble the model you are considering?

In many cases these people are appreciative of the advice. When they pick up a model that is too advanced or one that even us experienced modelers find difficult I steer them away. What's the point of spending $50 on a model they will be totally frustrated with two minutes into the build when here is one for under $30 that is very simplistic to assemble and provides little if any frustration factor.

Also, I suggest combining the model with another gift to give them a chance to enhance the experience and interest...I have recommended the Revell Ryan Monoplane "Spirit of St. Louis" kit as well as suggesting that they rent or purchase the DVD with James Stewart of the same title. The two work together well to create interest in the hobby and the history lessons it can lead to.

This type of interaction is probably IMO again the best resource to introduce kids into the hobby. It has the hands on aspect as well as the visual draw kids thrive upon. Even if it is an old movie, the plane is one of the principal characters. Same can be said for any of the space movies such as the "Right Stuff." 

Guess I'd better step down and quit thumping on the pulpit....which as a modeler was made from old discarded spares and scratchbuilt parts. No AM used here! LOL

Also, I suggest combining the model with another gift to give them a chance to enhance the experience and interest...I have recommended the Revell Ryan Monoplane "Spirit of St. Louis" kit as well as suggesting that they rent or purchase the DVD with James Stewart of the same title. The two work together well to create interest in the hobby and the history lessons it can lead to

Outstanding idea!   Be advised, I'm stealing it...

I do agree with enemy ace. scratchbuilding is the way to go in many cases and does sharpen your skills more than am parts. I find myself scratchbuilding things even when I have an AM part. Sometimes I can do a better job then both the kit part ans the am part.

IPMS does promote scratchbuilding and basic skills over Am parts Like hawkeye said. A well built model with a ton of am parts will loose over a expertly assembled and finished kit with little or no am parts. Now if the kit with a ton of am parts is constructed ans finished just as well as the OOB kit, and the detail is clean then It goes the other way. At the cleveland show this summer we had just this happen. A gun on treads beat out a super detailed tank due to the fact that the gun had less overall detail BUT all of it was scratchbuilt and the construction was pro all the way. don't know a thing about this cannon but it was very well done.   

i would like to thank all who so far have posted on this subject

no cut and dry  wrong or right opinions, just well thought statements on a modeling question

that is more on the intelectual end of the hobby , as oposed to the practical ( aka the how to side)             

btw gerald  on the practical side of things  how did you make that soapbox  again?

Hans von Hammer wrote:

Us auld pharts had our day... Time to pass on what we've learned... But if all you have to pass on is how much extra you have to spend on a kit in order to compete, you can forget about any real growth in the hobby...  That's just my opinion... I could be wrong...

Hans, you've said quite a bit here that makes a lot of sense to me.  I'm not an old phart, I just turned 24 in August.  I picked up modeling again ASAP after graduating college.  I think the biggest problem with what you've said, is that so many master builders and 'auld pharts' ( I love it, it's brilliant) take these things for granted.  I'd love to be able to do a lot more with what I've got than go out and buy AM all the time.  Like you, I see the guts of the real things that I model on a daily basis...and have to wash them off when I come home from work oftentimes.  I want my builds to be accurate, and I'd love for them to be all my own work.  I've got a huge, very slow, project going that falls squarely in that category.  So far, I only plan on using a Falcon vacuform set for it, and that's because the canopy is plain bizarre.  More on that in a different thread.

Sure, there are plenty of how-tos and such in magazines and on the internet, but its the little things that the more experienced take for granted and don't ever explain.  I've got a collection of FSMs that go back to the first issue.  I read the old ones all the time, while my new ones I leaf through once or twice.  There are loads of pretty pictures, but very little actual how-tos.  For example, I've been trying to figure out how to open cowling flaps on a 4-engined bird.  Lots of articles, threads, and sites mention this, but rarely does anyone come out and say, 'This is how you do this,' in enough detail to duplicate.  Another example is wiring engines.  Its simple once you learn it, but how do you do it?  How do you know where, even roughly, they should go.  I resorted to digging out my old textbook on radial engine performance, just to figure out that one.  

My point is, after all my rambling, that AM is good as a stepping stone.  I bought a resin engine for a build a while ago, used it, and now I know how to detail them as well as what pieces to make to create my own, beacuse the instructions that came with it explained it.  I bought a resin wheel set so that I would know what the 'correct' treads should be on a P-38 tire.  Now I can sand the kit ones smooth, and carve the right tread in.  

All in all, its the scratchbuilding techniques that need to be passed down, not basic kit construction techniques.  I know how to build a kit.  I'm very handy with my hands, and can build most anything I've ever needed, but I can't figure out how to replicate the details I see at work.  I guess what it comes down to is that I don't know how to do the advanced basics.  I even joined a forum that a fellow member, Solid, created that is all about scratchbuilding and vacuforming. Thing is, I still can't get these basic things answered even there.  That lack of intermediate technique knowledge is what is frustrating about modeling, and what you have to provide if you want to pull modelers away from using solely AM.

I've read all the books on scratchbuilding, and detailing, and all the other topics that are suggested.  But, none of these books explains how.  They say, 'Do this, to detail an engine...' not, 'To detail an engine, follow these basic steps...'

Just my 

Cheers,
Alex 

As with anything you have to start somewhere to learn the process. Us 'auld pharts' who know how to improvise all graduated McGyver University with a degree in Improvisation with a minor in Adapt and Overcome. I've gone on to get my Piled Higher and Deeper.

Over the years I've met modelers who either don't have the correct side of their brain engaged that allows them the necessary creativity or are willing to risk a kit to do something outside of their abilities or comfort zone. They'd never ever build a what if regardless if it was just changing markings...they just won't.

Some of us 'auld pharts' are more creative than others...I like the challenge of looking at a pile of parts and raw materials to make something from them. Writing too is also a great parallel to creative model building. Like my story about a what if I built using an existing kit and modifing it.

When I build such projects I like to try different techniques or ones that I haven't used in a long while to keep my proficiency up. Like on this one I made the control surfaces functional. Which was easy, but did present its own new challenges as well. Regardless it was FUN and helped me develop my skill sets further.

I enjoy nothing more than sharing my hobby with others, just as those did to help me learn and develop my skills to make the hobby more enjoyable.