Our hobby suppliers need to get with it!

To wrap this up, I hope the modelling companies pay attention to these boards. They don't need to pay focus groups, just read what we are telling them. We will pay the price for a good model. Give us good fit, good history to help us make choices in terms of schemes and allow us to learn, give us sturdy pieces that don't warp and as I started the post with, give us freaking instructions that can be followed. No bod letters vs lower cased letters vs boxed letters with little triangles and no glue signs all jumbled into one. Pay an artist to draw quality sketches of the build. Read and please pay heed. As far as I am concerned, right now, Tamiya is the best. That is just my opinion. If you had to press me, Revell is pitiful!

you know what i mean dj =D pulling hair out..............

Reggie, it's too late for me, I haven't got hair anymore... LOL

vote with your feet . i have never bought kits from any other brand except for tamiya and academy. guess why ? tamiya kits are a boon to newbies like me. if you like spending 50% of your time dry-fitting and filling and sanding and filling and sanding,then go for cheap kits of rare subjects. but for the rest of us, just go with a somewhat pricier kit. is the 5 hours of time and the clumps of hair worth the extra 10 bucks ?

Shipping costs are bound to play a part in the increased costs of kits from the Far East in Europe, but even taking this into account there is disparity between the various manufacturers. Obviously the opposite situation exists if you leve in the Far East (Does that make the US the Near West, and Europe the Far West?).

I'm not knocking the quality, it's just that the trade off in extra detail compared with a Revell kit is not always worth the extra cost.

The thing that really bugs me is paint code guides in the front of the instruction booklet, with the painting directions at the back! You have to keep going backwards and forwards to identify what paint you need. Why not put it in twice, once in the front for all the interior components, and once in the back for the external painting!

Come guys it's not rocket science!

Karl

Kewl!
I'm a Kansai boy meself! Lived in Tokyo for two years, though.
Glad to have another Japan-based modeler on board!

QUOTE: Originally posted by J-Hulk MMF, are you in Japan?

Yup, Kanto region.

MMF, are you in Japan?

You're absolutely right about imported kits; no matter where you are, they're gonna be expensive. The Revell kits in particular always surprise me here in Japan. Nutty expensive! AMT/Ertl auto kits also are pretty steep.

Although business might be a little rough for the big Japanese kit makers these days (well, for ALL businesses, actually!), the continued proliferation of hobby shops here (remember my report a coupla months ago about the monstrous Super Kids Land, featuring Tamiya World? Outrageous!) would seem to indicate profits are indeed being made, albeit not at previous levels, perhaps.

The advent of good, inexpensive products by Trumpeter and other makers here in Japan must be putting pressure on the big boys. If they're going to survive, they're going to have to keep up with these new companies by offering great products at reasonable prices, which again, they are doing in Japan.

By the way, I've just started work on a Skif BMP-3, and to go back to the original topic of useless instruction sheets, hooo-boy! This is it! Not only is it very very vague, but some of it is just plain wrong. I've downloaded tons of BMP pix to help with the build, but I can't help wishing that Skif would have at least gotten what they did show right! Sheesh!

No complaints, though.
I knew what I was getting into!

KJ200.

Do you want to know what western Models cost in Asia or similar?

Revell Kits over here cost a mint same with Polar lights, Monogram, Heller. etc and that is if the kits are available.
Imported models are always more expensive, I pay similar prices for an Italeri Kit and a Tamiya Kit over here.
Of course I buy the Tamiya Kit.

Couldn't agree more with djmodels.

The prices of Tamiya kits in the UK are very high, especially when compared with US prices.

I realise that quality costs, but that is to understate the standard of kits coming out of the likes of Revell, Airfix etc.

It is these low cost, easy build kits which draw new starters into the hobby, by delivering an enjoyable build, often in a short time frame, for a very limited expenditure.

My eldest son bought the Revell 1/72 tornado at the weekend for £10, and spent most of Saturday and Sunday building it. I don't even know if Tamiya make a Tornado, but I shudder to think how much it would cost. Certainly beyond the reach of younger modellers, and those of us on a more limited budget.

While I applaud the high detail, high fidelity, high cost kits from the likes of Tamiya et al, they are only ever going to have a limited appeal. Maybe Tamyia should consider some smaller cheaper kits. Yes I know they do 1/72, but I baulk at paying £10 for a 1/72 WW2 fighter.

The model railway went through exactly the same process 15 years ago in the UK, with better models costing more, until the base trainset customer could not afford them, thus killing demand stone cold. As a result several manufacturers went to the wall, leaving just the more toy centred manufacturer standing. They have since upped the quality of their models to the poinr where they are little short of stunning, while still maintaining a firm toe hold in the children's market.

At the end of the day it's about balance, which is why the likes of Revell, Monogram & Airfix are still here.

Karl

This is indeed quite interesting... I think Tamiya's problems are also due to the fact that their products are very expensive and that 'would-be' modelers are being kept away from buying their kits... I mean Tamiya have always been rather 'up-market' but some of the kits they've produced lately are really very expensive and probably geared too much to the experienced modeler. Smaller market means higher prices... People like Italeri, Airfix still manage to keep a balance between quality, price and the size of the market.

As to Trumpeter, I really do not know how they manage!

djmodels1999.

Actually believe it or not Tamiya, Hasegawa, etc ARE hurting at the moment, they lost some of their best staff to competitions and are not as strong as they once were.

I heard that the Tamiya mold-maker(best in japan) now works for Fine Molds.
Hasegawa spread into the SciFi/Anime market, why, because they needed a new line to generate income.
Tamiya aquired the Italeri Planes to offer new Kits cheap to the Japanese market.
Imai went bankrupt, Aoshima, Takaraa and they like barely survive on re-issues of older Kits.

The model market in Japan may it be plastics or garage kits appears to be at a low.
I have read many interviews with Tamiya and other companies officials where they talked about their current problems and how they need to re-evaluate their way of doing business..

Bandai seems to be the only company still doing fairly well thanks to them owing the gundam rights and having other businesses to keep them up.

I disagree there, MadModelFactory...

The Directions you are talking about are I think quite different...

First, you have the main bulk of what is produced by most 'mainstream' model manufacturers, such as Airfix, Heller, Monogram, Revell, Hasegawa, Italeri and even Tamiya, marketed at a very wide number of (mostly) would-be modelers and (only then) more experienced modelers... Let's face it, out of the 25,000+ members of this Forum, how many actually bought the latest Tamiya kit..? Only a fraction. Tamiya would not spend all that money in designing a kit to cater to a couple of hundreds modelers..! In specialised press, such as FSM, companies like Academy, Trumpeter and Tamiya seem to show that they are designing those kits for those few hundreds, but commercial sense should make you realise that Tamiya is not getting 1% of their money back by selling the new kit to those experienced modelers...

In second comes a much expanded (since the '80s) range of stuff marketed by 'garage' companies (some of them having grown to larger, better outfits such as Special Hobby and Verlinden), aiming at experienced and somewhat wealthier modelers, with limited run detail sets, decal sets and kits...

And next, an non-negligeable (bigger market than the second one) number of companies, 'garage' (SHQ for instance), or 'mainstream' (Games Workshop) that produce foremost for wargammers and are quite happy to get a bit of extra business from modelers.

Haven't read all the posts on here, but I would like to share my Opinion on some points raised.

Instructions & fit: This will depend on how much money and research time the company has to spend on it.
Tamiya as an example often gets the real thing into the workshop and they design the Instructions and kit from the original.
Other makers work either of drawing, specs or only photographs.
The lates Tamiya planes are nothing more than repackaged Italeri Models and thus NOT Tamiya quality.
For many companies it also costs a LOT of money to get the Instructions translated and the cost of issuing multiple Instructions does not generate them a profit.

Aftersale parts and upgrade parts:
Those, IMO, are for the experienced modellers & enthusiasts who already got quiet a few models under their belt, not for the young ones or the inexperienced modeller.
Many of those parts are not ready-to-use out of the package and will need care in trimming and aligning on the Kit for which it is designed for.

Colours:
Most Makers cannot afford to stock 100's of shades of colours to conform to every model of theirs, so they eitehr:
a) Give a colour of theirs close to the original
b) Give a ratio on how to mix a colour close to the original colour.
BTW, what happened to the IPMS colour guide and the paint chip books, used to be the only way to get correct colour matches.

Having been around when Plane models consisted of less than 10parts, came in a plastic bag with the Instructions on the sealing flap I must say that on average the quality of Models has greatly improved.
Remember the articles on how to cut your own accurate panel lines on Planes and so on, or that back in the day 90% of all Plane Models shared the same Cockpit instrumentation.

Granted there are some companies that haven't really upped their game for the last few decades, and there are some that are literally strapped for cash and cannot afford to offer better quality but instead offer Kits of rarer items.
Make a high quality accurate Kit it will be beyond the means of the average modeller.

IMO, it is impossible to make a model and set of instructions that will satisfy everybody.
Some like me hardly ever look at the Insturction sheets and decide on our own colours.
Once build an Academy(Tamiya) Bradley M2 with interrior without Instruction sheet as it was missing, that was when Academy still offered cheap pirates of Tamiya Kits.
For younger Kids I still recommend a few simply plane models, snap-together kits and so on.

FWIW, I am NOT going to give my Opinion about the skill level systems offered by many Companies and Online shops.

I think the best we can do is keep ourselves informed as to which Company makes the type/quality of Model we enjoy.
Example: I prefer the Revell Germany Kits but couldn't be bothered with Revell USA kits.

Personally, I think that the Model Hobby has split into 2 distinct directions:
1.) Highly accurate Kits for the experienced modeller
2.) Easy to finish Kits fo the Kids and people that want to "play" with those toys. (Gundam, etc)

I began building models when I was a boy. The kits I bought back then (1960s) had English instructions because they were the only kits available. I can work from the foreign-made kits now, but it's not as easy. Some of the drawings aren't clear as to exactly where the part goes, especially with the tiny parts that pass for "detail" these days. I just fit the parts until I figure out exactly where and how they fit.
By the way, what happened to plane kits that have moveable flaps, rudders and alerions from the factory? The last one I found was from England several years back.

Better instruction might be good, but like Ming said, it does not bother me much. Would be good for beginners though. A good, accurate, to scale, 3-view drawing would be more useful to me. That's how vacuform kits tended to come with back when I started and honestly, not much else was needed.

As to written language disappearing from our instruction sheets, costs and marketing do that. It is a shame, 'cause I don't like them much, but let's keep in mind that not everybody speaks/reads/writes English... Symbols are more easily recognized by modelers, whether they are from Argentina, Portugal, Germany, India, Japan or China...

Clear, concise instructions are a must. If you don't have those, then the joy of building a kit evaporates. As far as paint standardization, I personally feel that if all the hobby paint manufacturers to establish standards for paint colors and productions methods, we'll see the variety disappear and the price go up, going another step down the road to seeing our hobby become prohibitively expensive to new modelers.

my devil's advocate:
I don't feel poor instruction is that big a problem (if you don't deal photo etch part). after building couple kits, everything is kind of routine. not to mention that you could get tons of info from internet.
couple things I would like to see improvement made by manufacturers are:
1. cheaper kits..... I am not buying anymore (otherwise I might face divorce) since I have already stacked up 100 plus. it is way to priecy for young kid getting into this hobby.
2. can kit makers kind of standardize the paint? I scratch my head everytime doing the paint chart conversion because I use exclusively Gunze.

I agree with most of the above. I think one step in the right direction would be if paint manufacturers would standerize their paints. One company says XF-2, another Humbrol # 5, and on down the line. Just give the FS number and description. Call it "Flat Black". I don't buy a specific companys paint just to build a specific model. I have paints by different companies and not one will tell you the same thing. What I have done is put tape on the bottles naming the paint inside. If a FS # is available, I will use that. If not, I list the color. Again Flat Black, Gloss White, Brass, etc.

I just recently purchased the Hobbycraft 1/32 MIG-17. The instructions are the worse I have seen in a long time. Someone without any modeling experence would not be able to build the kit. I am not sure where some of the parts go.

Modelers were demanding more from the model makers and in order to give them that, they produced kit beyond the range of the beginner. Some companies stayed with the simple kits and soon started loosing money. They have to produce high quality kits with PE and resin parts to stay alive. Someone had to loose, and it was the beginner that saw the latest model with all kind of extras that he talked his dad into buying for him. Both soon realized it was beyond their capability. If you were a kid and had a choice of two kits. The first, an easy build for beginners, just set there after being built, doing nothing. The second, for experienced builders, blew smoke and made all kinds of noise. Which one would you choose?

Fuzzy & djmodels I know what you mean about the Matchbox kits.

I still have a Jagdpanther and a Panzer 111 from when I was a teenager, sitting on my shelf at home.

My LHS still has a selection of Matchbox kits on their shelves, including one of the first i built the Me110.

I liked Matchbox, they were cheap and went together better than Airfix kits. Having said that my 7 year old built the Airfix P40 last weekend. This kit must be at least 30 years old, but my son had no problems. What's more he enjoyed it!!

My pet peeve is marking schemes which do not give the correct paint codes, especially on Luftwaffe aircraft! Come on how difficult is it to quote RLM paint codes?

Karl

I think the flags with code letters and the lack of written instructions are so the manufacturer can use the same instructions in a lot of different languages while using the same sheet. It's a pain and with the state of the printing industry, why can't they have the sheet in English if they are shipping to the English speaking countries and French for the French speaking countries etc.

What gets my goat worst is the manufacturer-allied kits that don't even tell you the name of the paint color. My Airfix Avro Vulcan kit instruction sheet tells me to paint the underside Humbrol #42 or something like that. Why can't they tell me that the color is white?

A suggestion for the letter flags is to go through the instructions and write the color next to the flag. That's what I do because it takes me a lot less than a week to forget what color D is.

May I chime in? I find doing the research to be much of the fun. I spend hours leafing through a Detail and Scale or similar publication before I start a project. However, I strongly feel that research should end with the 1:1 subject; we shouldn't have to do extensive research just to find where the parts should fit on the model, or to correct errors in the instruction sheets. A reasonable painting guide would be nice too.

Let's face it - many people who model for contests become mini-PhD's in a specialized subject, say P-51's, or German armor. They know all the bumps and welds on every variant. For those of us who build across a wide spectrum, it is difficult to assemble all the research materials every time we want to tackle a new subject. If I were going to enter a contest, I would buy the $40 book to get a subject exactly right. However, if I want to build for fun, but still build as accurately and realistically as possible, I should be provided with instructions that allow me to fulfill the potential of the kit. In other words, the kit instructions should allow me to build my Enzo Ferrari or P-51 to be nearly indistinguishable from a contest model at two to three feet - the difference should only become apparent on closer inspection.

Instruction sheets from the major manufacturers all need much better painting and assembly instructions. Last night I perused the instruction sheet for my newest project and it was terrible - a disgrace to a reasonable kit. The manufacturers could hire people from this forum for a very modest price to build their kits and improve their instruction sheets immensely. I'll bet some modelers would do it free if they were sent a preproduction kit! The expense to me would certainly be worth it - I would gladly pay $20.25 instead of $20.00 for a kit with decent instructions!

Perhaps we could have dual ratings on kits. The manufacturers could include a small box in each panel that would give more complete painting or detailing instructions corresponding to a higher skill level. For instance, if a part should be carbon fiber that fact could be stated in the "skill box" rather than listing it as "semi-gloss black".

As far as the aftermarket suppliers go, that is a difficult question. I know they struggle for life every day and frequently don't last for long. However, I do think they owe their users a minimal instruction sheet that at least prevents major goofs like nsclcctl described.

Should FSM print the complaints aired here? Perhaps, but gently. If a teenager buys a kit on a whim at X-mart and throws the thing in the trash two hours after getting it home because he/she cannot make sense of the instructions, then a potential hobbyist has been lost. Some of the instruction sheets are that bad!

FSM doesn't want to bite the hands that feed it, but on the other hand, increasing the number of hobbyists would benefit both FSM and (to a lesser extent) the manufacturers. Other than IPMS, this forum is one of the few voices that "serious" modelers have.

Perhaps one other thing FSM could do is to organize a moderated forum like this one under each of their monthly workbench reviews and allow fellow modelers to give their extended comments about building the kit. The reviews are adequate for me to decide to purchase the kit or not, and to decide whether I need to purchase aftermarket decals, etc, but I especially like to hear the many innovative ways that other people cope with problems or enhance the kit with aftermarket or scratchbuilt details. I know that information is here in this forum, but it is hard to track it all down. (Hey, speaking of building notes, does anyone remember the old MMP?)

Just my 6 cents worth....

PS. By the way, nsclcctl, what field are you in? I also am in science research (see alias).

Hey Jim-I too miss finding out what part 18 is. Building a model used to be a learning experience-although it's still fun!

HistoryinScale-Being in the magazine biz I have to say advertising generates way more income than subscriptions. So they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them.

All very interesting points in here. I agree with most if not all of them...So what can we do to make some changes in our hobby? Well I dont have the answer to that but, hopefully we can think of something....Think a mass petition would do any good? LOL We could try, couldnt we? I mean I still buy kits that pretty much suck just because its the only thing out there that might match the subject Im wanting to do....the kit makers know this...So they use it to thier advantage. Im not suggesting a boycott of anyone or anything that extreme lord knows I couldnt join in on that if I wanted to....so again what can we do? What are some suggestions you have?

I saw a note about having FSM print this...Yeah that would be nice but realisticly it would never happen. Or it would shock the hell out of me if it did. Why? Well simple business really you dont want to run off all your advertising accounts which provide steady income...I would even dare to say more income than actual subscription revenues...

Fuzzy, those are rare kits indeed! They never last long wherever they 'appear' here at shows..!

djmodels1999,
Second place with a Matchbox kit too , wow. Speaking
of Matchbox kits my favorite shop has a bunch of old kits on consign-
ment and there are several Matchbox with them.
I couldn't look at all of them because we spent the
majority of the time trying to match the new kit's recommended colors
to the actual colors needed. Sometimes things are harder
than they should be.
fuzzy

I don't know if everybody feels this way, but I think kit instructions back in the 1970's were more helpful than they are today. A lot of them would say, "Cement Part 3 (pilot's seat) to Part 4 (cockpit) then place, DO NOT CEMENT Part 5 (ejection seat lever) to cockpit." Aside from getting clear written instructions to go with the diagrams, you learn the names of the parts. Nowadays, a lot of kit instructions feature no written directions, just assembly diagrams that half the time look like they were drawn by a four-year-old. And if you don't know what the part is, forget it! I have sat and tried to figure out what a certain part is (especially because I keep a written diary of what I've done), and I've come away confused. Just what IS Part 18? A carburetor? An oil cooler? Something that fell from the air conditioner at the factory and wound up in the kit box by mistake?

And what about painting instructions? Revell used to flag each part that needed painting with the color written right there in the little flag! It was so convenient! Now you look to see what color the part should be and it just has, say, a letter: D. So you have to fold the instruction sheet and try to find out what color "D" is. And the name of the color is "Metallic." Metallic what? Silver? Gold? Blue? Purple with green spots? Then later, you have to paint another part "A." So you have to dig through the instructions to find out what color THAT is. A week later, you have to paint another part "D" but you've forgotten what color that is, so you have to look it up again...sigh!

Sometimes, in these situations, it helps to write in your own written instructions on the kit instructions, especially if you're doing a conversion or if the kit can be built in more than one way. You can even use different colored pens. Black pen can be used for general construction, for instance; blue pen can be used for painting instructions; red pen can mean "Be careful here!" It does help, but I do miss the clearer kit instructions of years past.

Ok, Nsclcctl, after being the devil's advocate (to put it nicely!), I'll sign up to that last request.

I am glad this got started and you all are chimeing in. The magazine should print some of these so these companies understand what is going on. They need to see they are not doing their job. Not all of them mind you, but some of them. No more excuses. Pay somebody to sit down and write the text, someone to illustrate, and test fit via the instructions. No excuses, do your job!!!!