Is it me or...

Honestly Gerry, Im flatly dismayed at Trumpeters offerings. Sure they have engraved lines and make HUGE models. But their errors are rampant, they do no more than any of the ones they replace and the cost is blistering at times.

All RevelloGram needs to do is go back and add incused lines to their molds. That would breathe life into what were, and are still, some of the best value packed models in existence.

Thanks for the background information

Help'd me for one. I'm sure it will fill in a few gaps for others that are not up to running speed as well.

Andrew

Konigwolf13 wrote:

I forgot to ask, there seems to be alot of comparisions accross niche areas, aircraft quality vs aircraft quality, ship vs ship 1. Does anybody have much experience with their armor? (has not really been touched and I've seen many good reviews here) 2. Does anybody have much experience across multiple areas, not just niche? Andrew

Trumpeter began their armor model line much like Academy did; with knock offs of Tamiya, Esci, Academy and Dragon kits. Their initial armor kits were horrible. It looked like they had made a wax mold of a Tamiya M60A3 kit, with some pieces still glued to the upper hull. Even the instructions were copies of the Tamiya and Academy instructions, complete with original parts placements that were molded on the knock off hull! For example, if part A2 was a driver's hatch on the original Tamiya kit, but Trumpeter had molded that piece in place, their instructions still showed part A2 as being attached. Plus all their original kits were designed to be motorized with the gearbox/battery compartment permanently affixed to the inner hull.

Their T-54/55/59 series initially was made from some sort of impact resistant plastic that was impervious to standard liquid of tube modeling cement. It took Ambroid Pro Weld to build those kits.

Now, they did have a quick learning curve. Their M1A1/A2 kit was a superior knock of of a combination of the Tamiya M1A1 and Dragon M1A1/A2; they took the best features of both kits.

They hit a good stride when they came out with several original modern Chinese army vehicles. They released two versions of the Chinese BJ-212A jeep (with and without recoilless rifle) and additional Chinese softskin trucks that were very good model kits (the only problem with my personal favorite, the BJ series jeeps is the vinyl tires will melt the styrene).

Currently, their armor kits are among the better kits available. So good in fact that the Dragon blogger constantly has to point out errors and attack any reviewer who mentions Trumpeter armor kits favorably.

DDonSS3 wrote:

I guess my main issue with Trumpeter kits is the sheer cost. Now, whether this high cost is due to the importer (Stevens International) or not, I don't know, but we're being asked to spend Hasegawa/Tamiya money for kits that (in general) don't quite rise to those standards. They've priced themselves way out of my market, I just can't afford them. I'm not whining, I've got plenty of kits in the stash, but the few I've seen that I'd like to have are just plain out of reach. Ywa, I know this is a hobby, and the rest of the arguments that go with that…

With any manufacturers line of products, the importer pays a price based on the agreed upon terms with the mfr. The distributors do mark up kit prices to cover their costs, but to blame SI as the reason for the high prices at the retail level is ridiculous. They apply the same formula to Trumpeter kits as they do other brands they import. It is easy to blame SI for higher prices when others around the globe tout they are paying less. There are several reasons for this which include the agreement between distributor and mfr, tarriffs, taxes, duties, fees, VAT, transportation costs.

If you think that this industry doesn't need a distributor level in the mix, you're missing some facts. A LHS owner doesn't have the time it takes to call each and every manufacturer of the products he stocks or wishes to sell to place an order everytime more is needed. It is just like you having to visit every place the food which you consume comes from (farms, butcher, bakery etc). It is a convenience for you to shop in one place for your food, just as it is for a LHS to order from a distributor. Multiple lines of product and in many cases purchasing terms. When is the last time you got payment terms from the vendor at the farmers market?

Can you image how much space a store would need to have in order to hold a backstock necessary of dealing with a mfr direct? Mfrs in this industry are not facilitated to handle such transactions either. They don't have the staff. Many people look upon these model companies as huge corporations staffed with dozens of people, but in reality some are staffed with as few as four.

Add to the fact that most don't produce products "in house", they out source the production elsewhere. Once a product is produced it is shipped from the point where it is made direct to the distributors, with a few to the "model company's" HQ for other uses such as promo and parts. JIT aka Just In Time inventory. The less the product is handled the better...less damage and lower transportation cost.

To make a point about being priced out of the market...well it is a economic fact that for many consumers in this hobby they are. But apparently it is a very small minority, as they continue to sell. I think if you continue to watch retailers you will see past Trumpeter releases being offered at significant savings. The only way the JIT system works is if there are no choke points or congestion in the system. If any one at any level of the system has too large of an inventory, the ROI/margin drops off fast. Any item that sits is costing the holder money, the idea is to turn inventory quicky to make room for the latest and greatest.

Eventually all of the mfrs in this industry are going to have to take a serious look at consumer direct sales. Other industries have had to adjust their methodology and structure to remain competitive and viable. However, don't look at this to reduce costs at the consumer level, as I stated most mfrs are not facilitated to do this sort of thing. They will incur new costs to meet this new service and those markups at the distributor level will be used to cover them. If they continue to offer sales to LHS, then part of that will go to replace some of the lost margins the LHS has dealt with over the past couple of decades. 

DDonSS3 wrote:

I guess my main issue with Trumpeter kits is the sheer cost. Now, whether this high cost is due to the importer (Stevens International) or not, I don't know, but we're being asked to spend Hasegawa/Tamiya money for kits that (in general) don't quite rise to those standards. They've priced themselves way out of my market, I just can't afford them. I'm not whining, I've got plenty of kits in the stash, but the few I've seen that I'd like to have are just plain out of reach. Ywa, I know this is a hobby, and the rest of the arguments that go with that…

With any manufacturers line of products, the importer pays a price based on the agreed upon terms with the mfr. The distributors do mark up kit prices to cover their costs, but to blame SI as the reason for the high prices at the retail level is ridiculous. They apply the same formula to Trumpeter kits as they do other brands they import. It is easy to blame SI for higher prices when others around the globe tout they are paying less. There are several reasons for this which include the agreement between distributor and mfr, tarriffs, taxes, duties, fees, VAT, transportation costs.

If you think that this industry doesn't need a distributor level in the mix, you're missing some facts. A LHS owner doesn't have the time it takes to call each and every manufacturer of the products he stocks or wishes to sell to place an order everytime more is needed. It is just like you having to visit every place the food which you consume comes from (farms, butcher, bakery etc). It is a convenience for you to shop in one place for your food, just as it is for a LHS to order from a distributor. Multiple lines of product and in many cases purchasing terms. When is the last time you got payment terms from the vendor at the farmers market?

Can you image how much space a store would need to have in order to hold a backstock necessary of dealing with a mfr direct? Mfrs in this industry are not facilitated to handle such transactions either. They don't have the staff. Many people look upon these model companies as huge corporations staffed with dozens of people, but in reality some are staffed with as few as four.

Add to the fact that most don't produce products "in house", they out source the production elsewhere. Once a product is produced it is shipped from the point where it is made direct to the distributors, with a few to the "model company's" HQ for other uses such as promo and parts. JIT aka Just In Time inventory. The less the product is handled the better...less damage and lower transportation cost.

To make a point about being priced out of the market...well it is a economic fact that for many consumers in this hobby they are. But apparently it is a very small minority, as they continue to sell. I think if you continue to watch retailers you will see past Trumpeter releases being offered at significant savings. The only way the JIT system works is if there are no choke points or congestion in the system. If any one at any level of the system has too large of an inventory, the ROI/margin drops off fast. Any item that sits is costing the holder money, the idea is to turn inventory quicky to make room for the latest and greatest.

Eventually all of the mfrs in this industry are going to have to take a serious look at consumer direct sales. Other industries have had to adjust their methodology and structure to remain competitive and viable. However, don't look at this to reduce costs at the consumer level, as I stated most mfrs are not facilitated to do this sort of thing. They will incur new costs to meet this new service and those markups at the distributor level will be used to cover them. If they continue to offer sales to LHS, then part of that will go to replace some of the lost margins the LHS has dealt with over the past couple of decades. 

I guess my main issue with Trumpeter kits is the sheer cost. Now, whether this high cost is due to the importer (Stevens International) or not, I don't know, but we're being asked to spend Hasegawa/Tamiya money for kits that (in general) don't quite rise to those standards. They've priced themselves way out of my market, I just can't afford them. I'm not whining, I've got plenty of kits in the stash, but the few I've seen that I'd like to have are just plain out of reach.

Ywa, I know this is a hobby, and the rest of the arguments that go with that… 

I forgot to ask, there seems to be alot of comparisions accross niche areas, aircraft quality vs aircraft quality, ship vs ship

1. Does anybody have much experience with their armor? (has not really been touched and I've seen many good reviews here)

2. Does anybody have much experience across multiple areas, not just niche?

Andrew

So what I'm gathering from this is. Trumpeter seems to of started around the level revell/monogram and are trying to climp up the ladder to tamiya and friends in quality. Is this a bad thing? not IMO, its good to have more competition on the block, more so when they are not afraid of taking chances doing new subjects as well as old faves. Their price, at least round my end of the woods, varies from around that or cheaper than the revell/monogram to halfway up to tamiya and friends  in price for the more expensive/higher quality kits. So in that regards you are getting what you pay for, no defferent from the other brands though really, instead of bying say a cheap italeri/monogram and an expensive tamiya/dragon you can just buy a cheap trump and a more expensive trump, you just get what you pay for. Is that about it?

Andrew

I have the impression that Trumpeter is in fact sort of a consortium, with kits in different genres and scales coming from different sources.  I'm also unclear on what relationship exists between Trumpeter and a couple of other Chinese firms, Hobbyboss and Pit Road.  Maybe somebody can fill us in on that. 

The only Trumpeter kits with which I'm really familiar are some of the 1/700 ships.  As I understand it (maybe somebody can correct me), that series comes from the same folks who used to be responsible for the Skywave/Pit Road series in that scale.  In my opinion the Trumpeter 1/700 North Carolina and Washington can easily stand comparison with any other 1/700 styrene kit, in terms of detail, fit, and virtually any other characteristic.  (The only problem I've found so far with the one I'm working on is that one pair of 5" gunmounts is out of place by a few millimeters.)  Many modelers, including me, sing the praises of the Tamiya 1/700 Iowa-class battleships, but I can't see any clear superiority.  (Tamiya trumpeted [sorry] the fact that its Missouri has countersunk lines between the deck planks.  So do the Trumpeter North Carolina and Washington.)  I also have the 1/700 Saratoga in my "to do" stack; it certainly appears to fit in the same category.

I find it interesting that, in addition to filling in some big gaps in the available subjects (e.g., up-to-date renditions of South Dakota-class battleships, French battleships, and American cruisers), Trumpeter is now taking on the "big boys" directly.  Tamiya's 1/700 Prinz Eugen is an excellent, up-to-date kit (I don't remember exactly when it was released, but it wasn't long ago).  Trumpeter has just announced one that will compete head-to-head with it.  And now we have 1/700 versions of H.M.S. Repulse from both companies - both in 1941 configuration.  The comparison should be interesting. 

Trumpeter's 1/350 warships have a mixed reputation, but generally seem to have been getting better as time goes by.  I've only bought one of them:  the Fletcher-class destroyer.  It got pretty thoroughly savaged by web commentators; I personally don't think it's as bad as some people do, but it certainly isn't up to the standard of the Tamiya competition.  On the other hand, there seems to be general agreement that the Trumpeter 1/350 Buckley-class destroyer escort is a first-rate kit.  And the 1/350 kits released over the past few months seem to have been getting uniformly good reviews.

It looks to me like Trumpeter dived into the plastic scale model industry with both feet, determined to churn out a staggering number of releases in record time.  (It would be difficult to get an accurate count, but I suspect the number of new aircraft, ship, and armor kits released by Trumpeter in the past, say, five years far exceeds the number released by Revell or Monogram - or virtually any other company - in any five-year period in its history.)  I'm not competent to pass judgment on whether that was a sound business decision, but it's probably inevitable that in such an ambitious release program there will be a certain number of duds.   

As for prices - well, 1/350 warship kits in general, except for destroyer types, are frankly beyond my budget these days.  I might - might - be able to justify spending  $100 on a kit that (a) I knew I was going to build right away and (b) would keep me busy for three or four months.  But not for one that would go in the stash and, if I ever got it out, would be finished within a few weeks.  Hasegawa's 1/350 Akagi is, I'm sure, an outstanding kit.  But the kit itself and the associated photo-etched sheets that Hasegawa sells to go with it would cost upwards of $500.  I just can't handle that. The Trumpeter 1/700 warships, on the other hand, seem to be priced about like most of the competition, if not a bit lower.  (For example, Squadron sells the Tamiya 1/700 Missouri for $38.70 and the Trumpeter 1/700 North Carolina for $29.66.)  And Trumpeter 1/700 ship kits certainly are cheaper than most (albeit not all) comparable resin kits.

I can't comment on Trumpeter aircraft or armor kits from personal experience.  But I have to say I do think the company is making a significant positive contribution to the plastic warship kit market - especially in 1/700 scale. 

I gotta admit, Trump has done nothing to impress me aside from asking, and getting, ridiculous prices for their kits. I've built a few and have not been impressed with the fit. In other cases the fit seems ok but the accuracy sucks. Think C-47.
Way to much unseen and expensive to produce detail, accuracy issues and way over priced. I'll stick to other mgfs unless Trumpy offers something nobody else has and I just gotta have one.

Only trumpeter I've worked on so far is their ASLAV-25 (I have other trumpeters in my smallish stash though) and only half way through the underside so far, I would compare it to a dragon kit I have just completed, and far above an old italeri LAV I have, how that compares to revell/monogram I dont know

Just my 2c

Andrew

Wot wrote:

I've only built three Trumpeter kits, the U.S.S. Hornet, the BR-52 locomotive and the K-5 Leopold, and I found the fit of the parts, the detail, the instructions...pretty much everything about them, to be outstanding. A true pleasure to build! My only problem was buying a PE set for the Hornet which about doubled the build time; I put the nearly complete ship away in frustration about three years ago due to that but will dig it out and (I hope) finish it after I complete the K-5 this weekend. I'm looking forward to Trumpeter's 1/200 Arizona, hoping it will be as well-engineered as those I've completed.

A 1/200 Arizona! I need to check this out.

Other than ship kits, I have not built any of Trumps stuff.  Which when I sat down and thought about it for a minute, is pretty astounding, as I build 1/32 almost exclusively, other than 1/350 ships.

I find that Trumpeter has some pretty significant gaps and unreal shape issues in the ship model world.  (the hull of the 1/350 USS Hornet looks like the 1950's flat bottomed Missouri model)

To be honest, looking out on my porch and my shelf, some 90% of what I have built is Monogram or Revell

I've had a similar, yet different, experience with the Trumpeter kit I'm currently working on.  It's a fit issue, but I've found that some of the tolerances are too tight.  There has been more than one occassion when a part has needed to be trimmed in order to fit.  They fit pretty tight when dry fitting, but the addition of paint has made them too tight.  I find myself, not only sanding the pieces, but trimming them down, as well.

I think I could assemble most of the kit, purely by friction.

-Fred

My, this is rather concerning! when I finish my current build I was planning on Trumpeter's 1/72 TU-160 & TU-22M3 (I dont do stashes).

Anyhow, both are in my mind big buck's kits, retailing here in the UK for around £80 each - I was under the impression that the high prices were down to the quality (fit & finish), detail & multimedia nature of these kits, or is it just down to the fact that is nothing available in 1/72 styrene from anyone else?

Granted the TU-160 is a BIG kit, but the TU-22 is similar in size to the Revell 1/72 B-1B, which was quite a reasonable kit to build & cost only £22.

I will be pissed in the extreme if I buy one of these "super detailed" kit, only to find out is has a shabby fit.  

I'd take Monogram over Trumped-Up's kits any day...   In fact, I DO... The last 15 or so kits I bought from Ebay were all Monogram or Revellogram... Only exception was a 1/48th Revell F4U-5...

Hans Von Hammer

President,

Iowa Monogram Preservation Society

Personally I don't find Trumpeter a good comparison to Monogram/Revell. From a fit standpoint, sure, but Monogram/Revell was a real pioneer for most of us. They were the Ford/Chevy/Chrysler of the muscle-car era. In the early days many of their kits were toy-like representations of the planes we liked most and you could actually play with them (I know I did).

Trumpeter, on the other hand, is a late-comer and trying to play with the big boys. They are trying to find a niche in the large scale super-detailed aircraft market, where they are doing pretty well. In 1/48 and 1/72 they are behind the game to the Hasegawa, Tamiya, eduard and Acc-Min offerings. I usually build in 1/48 where I find them hit and miss. That being said, I find the same with revell/Mongram, for every B-26 Marauder, there is a Bf-110, which I think is a wonderful kit.

The only experience I have with Trumpeter is with their 1/700 aircraft, but oddly, it mirrors the comments above. The aircraft themselves are generally quite good, accurately shaped, to scale and with exquisitely molded details that make each one a work of art in and of itself (one reason I may never do another aircraft carrier). My only complaint was where they chose to attach some of the sprues.

But the decals ... odd color choices and generally overscale lettering - at least on the modern US Navy aircraft I was building - which led me to either buy additional aftermarket decals or print what I needed. It all turned out fine in the end, but at additional cost in time and $$$ for a commissioned build.

I am finding that Trumpeter kits are no more and no less work to assemble than the R/M kits I've built. The engineering is no worse or no better either. About the only real differences is cost and the texture of the surface. Trumpeter isn't as smooth or crisp as R/M.

Someday I hope to build the Revell 1:32 Hawker Hunter, it I believe was one of the first "new generation kits" by RoG that offered better fit and finish.

In the course of assembling the recent Trumpeter kits I've been working on, I noticed the increased need for putty. The EF-2000 Typhoon I am working on has some serious fit issues, especially the intake, underside of theleading edge of the wings and tailpipe fairing. 

I'm eyeing those R/M kits in my stash again, they aren't any better or any worse. So before any of you novices out there sprend the big bucks for a Trumpeter kit. Spend a little time and save some money building a couple R/M kits to get warmed up. If you can build them where they turn out decent, you do fine with a Trump kit.

you know you're RIGHT??

It seems EVERY TRUMPETER kit purchase is a gamble.....oh how i wish Tamiya would come back from their coffee break