What is it with bookstores, hobby store chains?!

People still shop at bookstores?

I kid, kind of.

Amazon exists for a reason. I too enjoy the atmosphere of book stores (despite being a Kindle junkie) but you can easily find the books you're looking for online.

I think there's a cultural change contributing to the cycle along with another economic aspect that I haven't seen anyone mention.  Apologies if this seems to be some kind of political statement, but these are factors I've noticed that would seem relevant and no political commentary is intended beyond addressing supply/demand/price factors of the hobby.

On the cultural end, we're not as focused on making things or doing real-life recreational activities in this country as we used to be.  30 years ago we had a lot more people making stuff for a living than we used to, leading to an appreciation for what someone puts together with their own two hands.  Now, we're more service-oriented and more people would rather buy something in the realm of "collectibles" than put the time into doing amy assembly themselves.  The main kitbuilding subject this "collectibles" aspect affects is the scifi ( although the auto subjects would also be affected ), but the low interest spending time building anything affects the hobby in general.

The "not working at recreation" aspect I'm referring to is what I see in people who play computer versions of what used to be in-person recreational activities, from Madden football replacing getting together with friends in the park for a game to online games like World of Warcraft replacing tabletop gaming.  Even much of the tabletop gaming has been made into low-effort versions of the old games, such as Battletech with the metal minis offering a "click figure" version with prepainted figures.

There's also less interest in history, or current events for that matter.  How much demand is there going to be for historical subjects among younger potential customers when so many kids graduate who can't even find Iraq or Afghanistan on a globe let alone Vietnam or Korea?  I'd guess the lower demand for military kits is because of this kind of factor.

Finally, there's the cost of materials.  Even if you're able to minimize the design, moldmaking, packaging, and advertizing factors in startup and production costs, the price of oil is going to affect transportation and materials costs for not only the kits themselves, but anything else from cement to paints that are made from petroleum.

Actually, I bought 21st century's Mahacci or whatever it was. The interior wasn't anywhere near current standards, but the exterior was pretty darn good. The only downside was the massive screw-holes. But some bondo cleans that up right away... and really, how often do you get a 1/32nd plane for $10? even $20. The money you save con be spent on AM parts to trick out the cockpit and wheel-wells, making them great little kits. (or big kits...)

Man, when I was 16, the old Atari 2600 Video game was state of the art. And back then my favorite model was that enormous Blue Devil motorized RC destroyer model.  I swore I would get one some day but it never happened.  LOL..

Yeh, there has been some major improvement in the hobby since I started.  The newer kits are a lot more detailed, and there's all sorts of new finishing supplies and tools that we didn't have back then.  I think back then the coolest thing was when Testors started putting out that liquid glue that spread like water and always managed to spritz you in the eye no matter what you did to avoid it.  It was neater than tube glue but a major pain to work with and no good at all on larger items since it dried in like 10 seconds so you had to be fast about putting the parts together.  A lot of the time, the stuff would dry before you even finished putting it on the piece to be assembled.  You young wipernsappers are sooo spoiled.  Try masking without Ambroid. :)

Boba Fett

Well, consider the process used to make the mold. Some are extraordinarily expensive, in order to get crisp parts. And let's not forget that these things are made out of solid steel... that or maybe they're aluminum? I'm pretty sure they're steel though. Getting massive blocks of steel suitable for those molds is very expensive. Again, not to mention the machines required to HANDLE those molds.

 

Apparently, your HT USA is ripping you off. Several online searches turned up $5 per bottle, and I think my hobby-town is about the same.

 

I think the reason they're keeping the price higher on those older kits is they're trying to scrape up every cent they can get their hands on. The revenue from those kits allow them to stay in business, and continue producing new kits. And they ARE cheaper. The old tamiya 1/35th armor kits are around $20. New releases are in the $50 to $70 range.

 

gotcha, agree. Misunderstood your point.

 

Hey man, I'm 16 and love this hobby. Don't get too general with us... and honestly, we get all these great things you never got as a kid. Although I rarely buy AM parts. Scratchbuilding FTW.

Yes, you have some points.  I have always been of the opinion that our entire economy has turned into a house of cards.  The current trend towards increasing prices in reaction to lower sales is a good example.  I think some of it a kind of knee jerk reaction, but the fact is that every business is affected by what happens to every other large business.  The housing market and banking meltdowns illustrated this perfectly.

I bought one 21st. Century kit.  I didn't care for the quality.  Just like Lindberg, Starfix, and to some extent Testors kits.  Luckily those kits are a dime a dozen and make good starter kits. :)

I hadn't heard about Wingscale until now.  I will have to check them out when they start releasing.  I really have trouble with smaller scale nowadays.  1/32 is my preferred scale.

HawkeyeHobbies

You forget that consumers minds, likes and needs change constantly. Many a solid product disappears from the market even after the mfr did everything right.

Volume versus prices...Hmm well what about 21st Century Toys? Their kits were inexpensive and gave comparable quality to several other brands yet consumers were not purchasing enough of them to keep giant department store Wal-Mart from discontinuing. Yes I know there were other issues behind 21CT failure but the fact remains the kits were not selling at the price point being offered.

Many a company has had to raise its rates in order to be viable in the business world. Sounds a bit backwards but it is a fact many a company faces. Raise their prices or go under...not because their product is inferior but because the perception is if it isn't average or higher it isn't worth considering.

Like I said, it's a vicious circle.  To lower the price, they need volume, but they cannot get the volume because the pries are so high.

Many of the pricey kits today are never going to see the volume it would take to bring their prices down. They are produced in limited production runs, not like those Revell has been pumping out for decades. Totally different molding process. Because their runs are limited they have to recoup the costs accordingly. They are working on a lower volume and a compressed sales window of opportunity.

Sure there are those masters of repops such as Hasegawa who makes a change in the box art, a couple new decal options and maybe even some PE or resin to create an "all new" kit. Again as long as there are those out there and the world is a big place, prices will continue to be where they are. Why is it a Caddy costs more than a Buick, same components, just a little extra fluff to justify the price.

Why is a spoon type fishing lure which is nothing more that a stamped steel blade a couple of split rings and a hook fetching the prices they are today? Those that I have been using for decades once cost fifty cents, now the same ones fetch $5 and up! It is a product which is made in large production runs, is sold worldwide so it shouldn't have seen such a drastic change in price. The material costs are higher, but the process to make them has or should have seen significant improvements to offset those higher material costs. Like plastic, its the market demand that drives the prices.

Same is said about gas...prices went down when folks started to drive less. Now it is beginning to increase as production has once again been slowed and drivers are driving more. Stop buying kits and just possibly prices will go down.

It will be interesting to watch as Wingscale enters the market with their 1:32 scale kits...which are at a price point that Trumpeter sells their 1:48 kits at. Who will win? Trump is already seeing a significant decline in sales...the recession has reduced the amount of spending.

I'll be at iHobby this coming weekend...I'm sure many of my industry colleagues will have something to say about pricing levels and its future.

 

Well, consider the process used to make the mold. Some are extraordinarily expensive, in order to get crisp parts. And let's not forget that these things are made out of solid steel... that or maybe they're aluminum? I'm pretty sure they're steel though. Getting massive blocks of steel suitable for those molds is very expensive. Again, not to mention the machines required to HANDLE those molds.

Apparently, your HT USA is ripping you off. Several online searches turned up $5 per bottle, and I think my hobby-town is about the same.

I think the reason they're keeping the price higher on those older kits is they're trying to scrape up every cent they can get their hands on. The revenue from those kits allow them to stay in business, and continue producing new kits. And they ARE cheaper. The old tamiya 1/35th armor kits are around $20. New releases are in the $50 to $70 range.

gotcha, agree. Misunderstood your point.

Hey man, I'm 16 and love this hobby. Don't get too general with us... and honestly, we get all these great things you never got as a kid. Although I rarely buy AM parts. Scratchbuilding FTW.

You forget that consumers minds, likes and needs change constantly. Many a solid product disappears from the market even after the mfr did everything right.

Volume versus prices...Hmm well what about 21st Century Toys? Their kits were inexpensive and gave comparable quality to several other brands yet consumers were not purchasing enough of them to keep giant department store Wal-Mart from discontinuing. Yes I know there were other issues behind 21CT failure but the fact remains the kits were not selling at the price point being offered.

Many a company has had to raise its rates in order to be viable in the business world. Sounds a bit backwards but it is a fact many a company faces. Raise their prices or go under...not because their product is inferior but because the perception is if it isn't average or higher it isn't worth considering.

Like I said, it's a vicious circle.  To lower the price, they need volume, but they cannot get the volume because the pries are so high.

Many of the pricey kits today are never going to see the volume it would take to bring their prices down. They are produced in limited production runs, not like those Revell has been pumping out for decades. Totally different molding process. Because their runs are limited they have to recoup the costs accordingly. They are working on a lower volume and a compressed sales window of opportunity.

Sure there are those masters of repops such as Hasegawa who makes a change in the box art, a couple new decal options and maybe even some PE or resin to create an "all new" kit. Again as long as there are those out there and the world is a big place, prices will continue to be where they are. Why is it a Caddy costs more than a Buick, same components, just a little extra fluff to justify the price.

Why is a spoon type fishing lure which is nothing more that a stamped steel blade a couple of split rings and a hook fetching the prices they are today? Those that I have been using for decades once cost fifty cents, now the same ones fetch $5 and up! It is a product which is made in large production runs, is sold worldwide so it shouldn't have seen such a drastic change in price. The material costs are higher, but the process to make them has or should have seen significant improvements to offset those higher material costs. Like plastic, its the market demand that drives the prices.

Same is said about gas...prices went down when folks started to drive less. Now it is beginning to increase as production has once again been slowed and drivers are driving more. Stop buying kits and just possibly prices will go down.

It will be interesting to watch as Wingscale enters the market with their 1:32 scale kits...which are at a price point that Trumpeter sells their 1:48 kits at. Who will win? Trump is already seeing a significant decline in sales...the recession has reduced the amount of spending.

I'll be at iHobby this coming weekend...I'm sure many of my industry colleagues will have something to say about pricing levels and its future.

First off, I don't know where the hundreds of thousands comes from.  Once they make a master mold, it's the end of R&D, then it's just a matter of casting other molds from the master.  Yes specialty workers are expensive, but think about how many people they need.  With demand as low as it is, I doubt they would still even be manufacturing kits if there wasn't serious profit in it.

Testors Model Master Glue is 10.95 at our local Hobby Town USA, which is the lowest price for it in the area.  It's the only non CA glue I use anymore.  I only use CA to fill gaps and glue non plastic parts on.  I don't trust those el cheapo glues anymore.  And I haven't since the 70s.

You just stated my point.  Not enough people building kits equate to higher prices, which equates to fewer people building etc...  If some of these company were to slowly and incrementally lower the prices on older kits that have alread paid for themselves, maybe they would get more people interested in them.

My point was that they DON'T advertise on TV.  I was not saying they should.  I was making the point that that is one LESS expense that they have over the makers of other products.

Modeling has always been a bit of a Niche market.  It's just a shame that kids today can't enjoy it like us old timers did.

Boba Fett

 

Sparrowhyperion:

 

Yeh the $.  The sad fact is that it's a vicious circle.  Model manufacturers will not drop prices because the demand is so low nowadays.  And the demand is so low because of the incredibly over-inflated prices.  I am just teaching my Daughter now, and it's ridiculous how much a simple hunk of molded plastic costs.  I mean, after the initial mold is made, how much does it cost to actually manufacture these kits.  I think proportionally, Computer electronics are cheaper, and they are much more expensive to manufacture.  Add to that the fact that I never see any of the kits advertised on TV or any printed material other than hobby Magazines about modeling, and it's amazing.  And now it seems that finishing supplies can cost more than the kits.  You can get a simple Revell/Monogram P51D in 1/48 scale for around $12 on eBay if your patient, but that amount would buy you one can and maybe 2-3 jars of paint (Model Master).  And I am sorry but Glue should not cost around $10 for a bottle...  These prices make it very difficult to keep building.  Lots of kids who might have taken it up as a hobby, will never do it because of the cost.

 

 

 

Manufacturers spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on the molds, plus materials in plastic, metal, resin, even the boxes. Then distributing them... Then workers were needed to make the master (These days, 3D models, and let me tell you, those guys ain't cheap) some make hundreds of dollars an hour. Then the machinery needed, CNC cutters and such. IT TAKES A BUTTLOAD OF MONEY!!!!!

 

Yeah, paint glue, expensive (but where the heck is that $10 for a bottle of glue coming from? I've never seen it much higher than $6-7, and that's for Tenax7R and Ambroid Pro-weld and stuff.) but cheaper alternatives can be had. tube glue, $1.50. Some craft paint, $1 a pop. Not the best at all, but it can be done. EVERY hobby costs money, it's just the nature. Honestly, if there were millions of model-builders out there, kit prices would probably be insanely low. Supply and demand... less modelers=less kits sold=less revenue=more price per unit. I could be wrong, but hey... makes sense to me.

 

And yupper, advertising on TV is extremely expensive. Companies go through millions and billions of dollars to advertise. And there won;t be enough appeal to the audience to justify that much money. Don;t like kit prices? Deal with it, because until this economy turns around and hundreds of thousands of rich modelers join the hobby, it won't happen.

My point is that Model companies don't advertise in major publications.  No TV and no mags like Newsweek.  So they should have less ad investment than say Sony.   Prescription drugs, and medical items, electronics, and other, more sophisticated products usually require a huge investment in R&D.   But we are talking about plastic molds.  True it takes a long time to design one, but the cost should not be nearly what it is.  Lets face it.  Models are a LOT less expensive to fabricate than say TV sets, but you can easily find kits out there which cost more than a TV.

Like I said, it's a vicious circle.  To lower the price, they need volume, but they cannot get the volume because the pries are so high. 

Many businesses go bankrupt because they try to exact too much of a price from their customers.  This is what I think has killed off a lot of the old model companies. 

When I was a kid, every department store had a good selection of models and supplies in the toy section.  Now, I have only seen them in one chain store and it's a pitiful selection.  All of the mom and pops in our area are gone.  We have a Micheal's, A Hobby Lobby and a Hobbytown USA.  When I see a Revell 1/48 scale kit sitting on a shelf with a price sticker saying $29.95, there is something seriously wrong.  Let's face it, some kits are really cheap, like the 1/48 Revells, and some of them are way way out of the ballpark for most people.  I only buy a Hasegawa, kit when I catch one that's and open box on eBay.  I gave up actually collecting collectible kits a long time ago.  Now I get builder kits that I don't feel guilty peeling the plastic wrap off of and assembling.

HawkeyeHobbies

Do you know what main stream magazines charge for advertising? Check the going rate of Newsweek or any other magazine including FSM and you'll find it ain't cheap. Television! Think about who advertises on television and I'm not talking locally cable or broadcast either. A 30 second ad runs in the millions of dollars. Like all advertising the price break is based on the number of ads run over a period of time. You either have to have a very broad market base (such as those as electronics) or one that has a incredible profit margin (such as prescription drugs!) which you recoup your investment and then some.

Sit down with a car dealership owner and see how much of each unit he is charged by the mfr for advertising. Also click this link to visit FSM rate card just to see how much it costs to advertise with them. Then peek here to see Newsweek's. Remember that as a manufacturer you probably want to advertise in as many areas as you can/afford where your customers or potential customers are spending their time reading or watching.

Over inflated prices...take a peek at the displays at the cash register next time you shop. Look at those items that are impulse items. A handful of snack mix for a buck or better when a large bag costs say six and has fifty handfuls inside. As long as consumers pay the price, it will continue to be the going rate.

Many a business has bankrupted themselves by not advertising properly...whether spending money foolishly on media that doesn't reflect their market or not enough to hit their market base. Its a tough balancing act.

In our businesses we deal with these issues on a daily basis. One of them is IN a marketing business and some of its clients are in the hobby industry!

Sparrowhyperion

Yeh the $.  The sad fact is that it's a vicious circle.  Model manufacturers will not drop prices because the demand is so low nowadays.  And the demand is so low because of the incredibly over-inflated prices.  I am just teaching my Daughter now, and it's ridiculous how much a simple hunk of molded plastic costs.  I mean, after the initial mold is made, how much does it cost to actually manufacture these kits.  I think proportionally, Computer electronics are cheaper, and they are much more expensive to manufacture.  Add to that the fact that I never see any of the kits advertised on TV or any printed material other than hobby Magazines about modeling, and it's amazing.  And now it seems that finishing supplies can cost more than the kits.  You can get a simple Revell/Monogram P51D in 1/48 scale for around $12 on eBay if your patient, but that amount would buy you one can and maybe 2-3 jars of paint (Model Master).  And I am sorry but Glue should not cost around $10 for a bottle...  These prices make it very difficult to keep building.  Lots of kids who might have taken it up as a hobby, will never do it because of the cost.

Manufacturers spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on the molds, plus materials in plastic, metal, resin, even the boxes. Then distributing them... Then workers were needed to make the master (These days, 3D models, and let me tell you, those guys ain't cheap) some make hundreds of dollars an hour. Then the machinery needed, CNC cutters and such. IT TAKES A BUTTLOAD OF MONEY!!!!!

Yeah, paint glue, expensive (but where the heck is that $10 for a bottle of glue coming from? I've never seen it much higher than $6-7, and that's for Tenax7R and Ambroid Pro-weld and stuff.) but cheaper alternatives can be had. tube glue, $1.50. Some craft paint, $1 a pop. Not the best at all, but it can be done. EVERY hobby costs money, it's just the nature. Honestly, if there were millions of model-builders out there, kit prices would probably be insanely low. Supply and demand... less modelers=less kits sold=less revenue=more price per unit. I could be wrong, but hey... makes sense to me.

And yupper, advertising on TV is extremely expensive. Companies go through millions and billions of dollars to advertise. And there won;t be enough appeal to the audience to justify that much money. Don;t like kit prices? Deal with it, because until this economy turns around and hundreds of thousands of rich modelers join the hobby, it won't happen.

Do you know what main stream magazines charge for advertising? Check the going rate of Newsweek or any other magazine including FSM and you'll find it ain't cheap. Television! Think about who advertises on television and I'm not talking locally cable or broadcast either. A 30 second ad runs in the millions of dollars. Like all advertising the price break is based on the number of ads run over a period of time. You either have to have a very broad market base (such as those as electronics) or one that has a incredible profit margin (such as prescription drugs!) which you recoup your investment and then some.

Sit down with a car dealership owner and see how much of each unit he is charged by the mfr for advertising. Also click this link to visit FSM rate card just to see how much it costs to advertise with them. Then peek here to see Newsweek's. Remember that as a manufacturer you probably want to advertise in as many areas as you can/afford where your customers or potential customers are spending their time reading or watching.

Over inflated prices...take a peek at the displays at the cash register next time you shop. Look at those items that are impulse items. A handful of snack mix for a buck or better when a large bag costs say six and has fifty handfuls inside. As long as consumers pay the price, it will continue to be the going rate.

Many a business has bankrupted themselves by not advertising properly...whether spending money foolishly on media that doesn't reflect their market or not enough to hit their market base. Its a tough balancing act.

In our businesses we deal with these issues on a daily basis. One of them is IN a marketing business and some of its clients are in the hobby industry!

Yeh the $.  The sad fact is that it's a vicious circle.  Model manufacturers will not drop prices because the demand is so low nowadays.  And the demand is so low because of the incredibly over-inflated prices.  I am just teaching my Daughter now, and it's ridiculous how much a simple hunk of molded plastic costs.  I mean, after the initial mold is made, how much does it cost to actually manufacture these kits.  I think proportionally, Computer electronics are cheaper, and they are much more expensive to manufacture.  Add to that the fact that I never see any of the kits advertised on TV or any printed material other than hobby Magazines about modeling, and it's amazing.  And now it seems that finishing supplies can cost more than the kits.  You can get a simple Revell/Monogram P51D in 1/48 scale for around $12 on eBay if your patient, but that amount would buy you one can and maybe 2-3 jars of paint (Model Master).  And I am sorry but Glue should not cost around $10 for a bottle...  These prices make it very difficult to keep building.  Lots of kids who might have taken it up as a hobby, will never do it because of the cost.

Yeah, I been to New Braunfels many times...

Hello , YOUNG fella! I see you and raise the ante. Here in NEW BRAUNFELS ,TX. they don,t even have the books you are referring to in the research and help section. in the LIBRARY!! They have more on building classic autos and beading etc and very few reference books that a modeler could use

Heck, even at the LHS that's a Mom & Pop operation has limited selections of books... Unless you want Model RR stuff... My guy here has had the same copies of Squdrn books laying around for years... Doug, the owner, flat out said he ain't stocking any more ever again because folks don't buy a book about every single kit that comes out... Gotta agree with him... After all, how many Dr1 Walk-around books do ya need to own? And with the amount of material on the web that's free, "why bother?" is even more a pertinent question...

As others have said, bottom line, it is totally about the $$$$$. There may be a few hundred thousand modelers in the USA, say, but there are a million or more who just knit ... and who will actually buy the newest pattern or book or type of yarn or whatever.

And this is not meant to be offensive.. But go into your hobby shop.. How many guys are standing around not buying anything? If I go in in the evenings or on weekends there are at least 2-3.. of the 4 in there.

I think this hobby attracts a lot of people who *think* about buying stuff and sometimes *talk* about buying stuff.. But when it comes to actually prying money out I think there are a lot of people very resistant.. Probably due to the hundreds of kits some of us have sitting on their shelves.

The stores are going to cater to the people who actually spend money

The reason is the same...market. They are thousands of modelers out there, but there are millions of knitters and/or beaders out there. People have been doing both of those since the dawn of civilized man. Build models came along long after the first person made bead necklaces and garments.

Hence the reason the reason Amazon is so popular for finding books and such. They are out there, just not every local bookstore stocks them.

You might venture into some of the discount books stores in your area. One of the guys in our club is constantly patrolling this types of stores and finds books on modeling, aircraft and other topics that parallel our hobby interests. Seems that's the only place you can find these titles with the exception of online.

I was more talking about books, not mags. I agree with your reasons, however, if there are about 200 knitting books, 250 beading books and zero modeling (and zero books for other crafts/hobbies), it makes no sense. There are thousands of modelers out there.

Michael's is a craft store, scale modeling is considered a hobby. Just as when you walk into a hobby shop, you don't find much in the way of crafty stuff.

The big book stores deal in what sells. Crafting has a larger audience spanning a larger demographic therefore book stores carry periodicals that appeal to that market. The percentage of scale modeling related titles is tiny by comparison, so you can expect a smaller percentage of representation.

You may not like it but that is why there are subscriptions which in the end are generally cheaper in the end versus purchasing one issue at a time at the book store. Sure you can't have the luxury of only getting the issues you want, but at least you are assured to get a copy.

Here our Barnes & Noble only carries a limited number of copies of most of the popular titles. So if you are late to the party chances are you won't find a copy to be had. The manager says as long as the allocated copies continue to sell, the number brought in will remain constant. In the past when they have increased them, the extras just sit and never sell. Many publishers have stopped accepting unsold magazines for credit. Hence why many of the LHS are no longer stocking magazines or have also reduced their standing order quantity.

Now if you can convince those ladies to put down their knitting and start building plastic...you'd solve your problem. Good luck with that!

yeah I have noticed this too I get most my books at LHS or on line Amazon on line hobby dealers etc.   ACESES5              Done academy M3A1 Stuert  up next your guess is as good as mine