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Using an Enigma machine to decode Dragon kit instructions... Locked

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  • Member since
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  • From: my keyboard dreaming of being at the workbench
Posted by Aaron Skinner on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 3:20 PM

Gents,

Really? Personal insults and threats? See Ya!

Aaron

Aaron Skinner

Editor

FineScale Modeler

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 3:16 PM

PANZERJAGER

2nd. If Dragon knows they have a "problem" with their instructions, then they should "test market" some prototype kits to check them out before committing to full blown production.  Thereby getting the bugs out.

They do, I believe, test market them by giving several kits away to some of their bigger fans, such as Tracy White.  As he mentioned in this thread (or was it the other one?) the instructions even be worse if they didn't go through that exercise...I think he is right though: why should they change if their kits continue to sell? 

That's why I am asking all of you to STOP buying Dragon kits and work on your stash until they acknowledge the issue and work on making their instructions better... 

  • Member since
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  • From: Eagle River, WI
Posted by PANZERJAGER on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 2:15 PM

Just my two cents here...

1st, I usually only start a kit after obtaining a ton of research materiel, especially photos.  So much so that I could build the subject from scratch if necessary.  Therefor the instructions are merely a suggestion of how the kit goes together.  Because I'm going to compare the parts to reference photos anyway.

2nd. If Dragon knows they have a "problem" with their instructions, then they should "test market" some prototype kits to check them out before committing to full blown production.  Thereby getting the bugs out.

PANZERJAGER

 PANZERJAGER

 

 

Dre
  • Member since
    June 2007
  • From: here, not over there
Posted by Dre on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 2:01 PM

Methinks that the DML instructions are some sort of entrance exam for new prospects, those who finish the kit without too much fuss are then allowed to wear the DML colors with pride on their jackets.

The guys who can't get past the instructions...   well, there's a hole in the desert for them.

 

Seriously, there have been many times where I've looked at the instructions, looked at the sprues and asked WTF?   It gets easier if you build a few iterations of the same thing, though.  But I prefer Trumpeter's booklets any day.

  • Member since
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  • From: Monster Island-but vacationing in So. Fla
Posted by carsanab on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 1:49 PM

since I am finishing up their Ho-229..... I CAN SAY THAT THEY DO BITE THE BIG ONE.... Bang Head its not enough that the fit is terrrible,,,they take it one step further with the instructions...they are vague and the drawing angles are terrible.... who ever puts these thing together has NO sense of 3D imaging,,,,I had a Devil of a time understanding them.......AND IM AN ARCHITECT!!!!

So I have to side with the Ol' Field Marshall on this one.....

Tags: P38

 Photobucket

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  • From: San Francisco, CA
Posted by telsono on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 1:44 PM

I have to respond to questions from many sources with a subject that can be technical in nature. One thing I'll do is avoid using reference to "this, that, they, them, etc." and go and write out what I am talking about to make it clear to anyone reading it, as I would also try to define what some subjects are in easier language.

We get foreign requirements that have to be translated. Some of the situations have become very crazy, as the reguired statements need to be exact and conform to negotiationed language. One of the truelly funny situations occured when we had an import permit from Colombia in Spanish. The exporter had it translated by a professional service. It was so bad, the translator must have been a liberal arts student who never took a science class in their life.The permit had many scientific bionomial names for plants and their pests. they tried to translate them as if they were Spanish words and add their grammar into it as well. What a farce! I can pick my way through a Spanish written permit on my own, but were are not allowed to make the translations ourselves. But we can review their accuracies! That policy is based upon some liability issues. But this company paid a service for a very useless piece of work.

I can see where a text or conversation based video game could easily go awry when the nuances are completely missed.

Mike T.

Beware the hobby that eats.  - Ben Franklin

Do not fear mistakes. You will know failure. Continue to reach out. - Ben Franklin

The U.S. Constitution  doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. - Ben Franklin

  • Member since
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  • From: Austin, TX
Posted by DoogsATX on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 1:37 PM

Having just completed main assembly on my first Dragon kit, I have to say, the instructions weren't that bad. The biggest issue was with the hinges on the turret hatches, where the parts were misidentified. Stupid me followed the part numbers, and the assembled doors + hatches turned out too wide to fit into the turret. Thankfully I caught the issue in time to rip the pieces apart and redo.

Honestly, next to the instructions with the AFV Club Achilles, Dragon seems like a walk in the park.

On the Bench: 1/32 Trumpeter P-47 | 1/32 Hasegawa Bf 109G | 1/144 Eduard MiG-21MF x2

On Deck:  1/350 HMS Dreadnought

Blog/Completed Builds: doogsmodels.com

 

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  • From: Philadelphia PA
Posted by smeagol the vile on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 1:20 PM

This is a different subject, but it is on the same subject I would think.

This is not an uncommon thing in... everything.  If you play video games, or watch TV im sure you saw a commercial for the Valve game 'Portal 2'  The game did extremely well, I loved it, and it was translated into many languages.  The game itself had alot of humor, real humor, dry humor, and subtle humor.  Alot of the humor is very specifically written, every line is written the way it is for a reason there is no guessing with their lines.

Now when it was translated into German (which was the worst) the translators... either were not given the full story, did not care, or for whatever reason did not seem to care about keeping the meaning as opposed to making it 'sound natural' in German, even if it didn't sound natural in English.  A native German speaker wrote a very nice article about it in English, it is a very good read and some of you may enjoy it, I did, especially having studied German as a language. http://killedintranslation.com/portal2/

 

  • Member since
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  • From: San Antonio
Posted by MAJ Mike on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 12:58 PM

Yup.  Wanna make something of it?

 

 

 "I'd "I'd rather be historically accurate than politically correct."

"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!"

  • Member since
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  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 12:36 PM

MAJ Mike
Methinks you should just slink back to the basement and forego any more attempts to talk your way out of that arrogant and stupid statement you made.

What was it you said before.... "bite my skinny @$$?" Aren't you being just a little hypocritical?

 

 

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 7:12 AM

Yes...and those kits are rather basic that you point out and may in fact not had their instructions done by Dragon---I think those may have been bought molds/kits...

Regardless, the universal complaint about their kits are the instructions, and not always just simple thijngs but errors which could cause an expensive kit to be rendered into junk...Just in the latest issue of FSM the reviewer AGAIN compalined about the new American escort carrier's instructions... 

  • Member since
    May 2011
  • From: Canada
Posted by HisNHer Tanks on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 7:10 AM

In my opinion they make good models, but they must be hiring useless draftsmen for the drawings.

 

Sure you can say they beat Tamiya in a few cases with a few tanks that use a few additional parts, but they are not even half as good at making instruction sheets as Tamiya.

And if this thread is any indication, anyone wanting to make their kits, likely better already know where the parts actually belong.

Not that Dragon is alone. I have seen a few companies make decent enough kits, yet they can't seem to master the art of explaining how to assemble the kit.

Tamiya 1/48th scale armour fan

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Rothesay, NB Canada
Posted by VanceCrozier on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 7:08 AM

Did somebody here need to borrow my enigma machine? It's in the basement under my winter tires, but I can dig it out if needed...

I think I have only ever built 3 maybe 4 Dragon kits. The Dornier 335 in 1/72 with no issues that weren't my own doing; the Ki61 in 1/72, no issues there beyond my recent slackness; and the Heinkel 162D in 1/48. That one had some fit challenges, and a complex landing gear bay, but nothing I would ID as an instruction problem. Manny, are you talking armour & ships more than aircraft??

On the bench: Airfix 1/72 Wildcat; Airfix 1/72 Vampire T11; Airfix 1/72 Fouga Magister

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: San Antonio
Posted by MAJ Mike on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 6:23 AM

Tracy, Tracy, Tracy.

Hmm.  Walking back that comment now? 

Wow!  You certainly are a great and unselfish man for taking time from your busy day to help the poor, unskilled, unwashed peasant kit builder.  Thank you soooo much.  Next time I'll scatter rose petals in your path as you enter the forum.

Methinks you should just slink back to the basement and forego any more attempts to talk your way out of that arrogant and stupid statement you made.

 

 

 "I'd "I'd rather be historically accurate than politically correct."

"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!"

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 12:46 AM

Manny, Manny, Manny, always the context with you!

Let me 'splain something to you. The "hand hold" crowd are those people who NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, will always say things are too hard. I help out at a model shop on a regular basis and we have people who come in and say pre-painted snap-tights are too hard.I've seen guys who are so afraid of "messing up" a kit that they won't even start it!

 

 

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    March 2010
Posted by shoot&scoot on Monday, May 30, 2011 11:24 PM

Even with the upgraded 15 rotor enigma I still have trouble with Dragon's instructions.  I usually need all of Squadron's books and any other prototype photos I can study in order to put their kits together right.

                                                                                   Pat.

  • Member since
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  • From: New Zealand
Posted by Scorpiomikey on Monday, May 30, 2011 10:47 PM

Manstein's revenge

 

 TomZ2:

 

 

 Scorpiomikey:

As someone who spends all day creating engineering drawings, it becomes easy to disconnect yourself from the end user, you know how it goes together, the instructions make sense to you, but when you pick them up 6 months later its usually "what the hell was i thinking?" its easy to do, especially when you spend all your time working on the 3d models.

 

 

It’s more common than that. I had what is sometimes called “a diagonal career”, and in every one of my endeavors, my co-workers had some phrase that covered the situation, “what was I smoking?” being one of those printable. I suspect it’s simply part of the human condition.

 

I agree to a certain point...but remember, many of their errors are simple things like mixing up part numbers (like, 'place part B-3 on part J-57'---when is should have been: 'place part D-3 on part J-7'...), which is not a mistake or assumption in abstract thinking but more of a mental lapse or sloppy proof-reading...

 

Ill agree with sloppy proof reading, this tends to happen when designers/draughtsmen are left to their own devices. If someone else isnt reading your work, you make mistakes regularly.

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how i soar"

Recite the litanies, fire up the Gellar field, a poo storm is coming Hmm 

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 30, 2011 10:28 PM

TomZ2

 Scorpiomikey:

As someone who spends all day creating engineering drawings, it becomes easy to disconnect yourself from the end user, you know how it goes together, the instructions make sense to you, but when you pick them up 6 months later its usually "what the hell was i thinking?" its easy to do, especially when you spend all your time working on the 3d models.

 

It’s more common than that. I had what is sometimes called “a diagonal career”, and in every one of my endeavors, my co-workers had some phrase that covered the situation, “what was I smoking?” being one of those printable. I suspect it’s simply part of the human condition.

I agree to a certain point...but remember, many of their errors are simple things like mixing up part numbers (like, 'place part B-3 on part J-57'---when is should have been: 'place part D-3 on part J-7'...), which is not a mistake or assumption in abstract thinking but more of a mental lapse or sloppy proof-reading...

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Washington, DC
Posted by TomZ2 on Monday, May 30, 2011 10:24 PM

Scorpiomikey

As someone who spends all day creating engineering drawings, it becomes easy to disconnect yourself from the end user, you know how it goes together, the instructions make sense to you, but when you pick them up 6 months later its usually "what the hell was i thinking?" its easy to do, especially when you spend all your time working on the 3d models.

It’s more common than that. I had what is sometimes called “a diagonal career”, and in every one of my endeavors, my co-workers had some phrase that covered the situation, “what was I smoking?” being one of those printable. I suspect it’s simply part of the human condition.

Occasional factual, grammatical, or spelling variations are inherent to this thesis and should not be considered as defects, as they enhance the individuality and character of this document.

  • Member since
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  • From: San Antonio
Posted by MAJ Mike on Monday, May 30, 2011 9:56 PM

Hi, Mikey!!!  How're things? Toast

 

 

 "I'd "I'd rather be historically accurate than politically correct."

"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!"

  • Member since
    March 2010
  • From: New Zealand
Posted by Scorpiomikey on Monday, May 30, 2011 9:53 PM

As someone who spends all day creating engineering drawings, it becomes easy to disconnect yourself from the end user, you know how it goes together, the instructions make sense to you, but when you pick them up 6 months later its usually "what the hell was i thinking?" its easy to do, especially when you spend all your time working on the 3d models.

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how i soar"

Recite the litanies, fire up the Gellar field, a poo storm is coming Hmm 

My signature

Check out my blog here.

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: San Antonio
Posted by MAJ Mike on Monday, May 30, 2011 9:22 PM

Manstein's revenge

Mr. Tracy White is calling anyone who questions Dragon's instructions as the "hand holding" market (in the SHIPS Forum)...I guess that's us...

Herr Feldmarshall, may I tell Mr. White to bite my skinny a$$ and that I've got something right here he can hold?

 

 

 "I'd "I'd rather be historically accurate than politically correct."

"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!"

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Monday, May 30, 2011 9:22 PM

Manstein's revenge

Mr. Tracy White is calling anyone who questions Dragon's instructions as the "hand holding" market (in the SHIPS Forum)...I guess that's us...

...how can anyone hold hands while building a model ?

Everyone knows ya need at least three hands to build a model airplane.........Whistling

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 30, 2011 6:43 PM

Mr. Tracy White is calling anyone who questions Dragon's instructions as the "hand holding" market (in the SHIPS Forum)...I guess that's us...

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Washington, DC
Posted by TomZ2 on Monday, May 30, 2011 2:32 PM

Sprue-ce Goose

 

 Manstein's revenge:

 

I mean, do they first write them in Chinese then run 'em through a $15 program that translates them into English???  What gives? 

 

 

NOPE !

Babelfish has a Chinese / English option....

Dead on, Goose! Dead on! Last time I bought a kit with furrin” instructions, I had to scan the sucker though my flatbed scanner and blow up the image a few hundred percent before I could puzzle out what was expected. (Complicating things, I was going to modify it, of course.)

Apropos of nothing, the Shinkansen (bullet train) used to have warning signs something like “Not to exit while train is motioning, otherwise injury or great death may result.” Bablefish’s fractured translations have become the world’s standard.

Occasional factual, grammatical, or spelling variations are inherent to this thesis and should not be considered as defects, as they enhance the individuality and character of this document.

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 30, 2011 12:08 PM

Give 'em heck, boys!!!

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: San Antonio
Posted by MAJ Mike on Monday, May 30, 2011 11:36 AM

Manstein's revenge
 

Are they just really stupid in this one area?  Do they take their model-buying customers for granted? The world wonders... 

Ja, Herr Feldmarshall!

 

 

 "I'd "I'd rather be historically accurate than politically correct."

"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!"

  • Member since
    November 2008
  • From: Central Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Monday, May 30, 2011 11:35 AM

Manstein's revenge

Honestly, why can't Dragon do a better job with their instructions?  Do they take their model-buying customers for granted? The world wonders... 

Whenever I build a Dragon kit, I shoot their customer service an email with the problems I encountered with their instruction sheet. I get the same response from them, being that my suggestion will be "passed on  to the designing team", what ever that means. Hmm

I just don't understand Dragon. They are able to produce fantastic kits with incredible details but their instructions are just the opposite. Dragon should  look up WNW's instruction sheets for some good ideas on how an instruction manual should look like.

 

 GIFMaker.org_jy_Ayj_O

 

 

Too many models to build, not enough time in a lifetime!!

  • Member since
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  • From: Grand Bay, New Brunswick ,Canada
Posted by MECHTECH on Monday, May 30, 2011 11:30 AM

Know what you mean Manny. I am currently working on a German Artillery piece. Thankfully their instructions have decent enough drawings. When you compare the part numbers given with the part shown on the instructions, it can be something on a completely different sprue.

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