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A little ranting about automation and 3D printing ...

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  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 8:37 AM

Wired magazine (current issue) has an article about these things.  The one they cover most has two versions- cheaper is $2200, more expensive version is $2800.  So they still have a ways to go before I can afford one.  Yeah, price may drop like 2D printers did- then again it may not- we'll see.

Scale modeling (non-operating) is a good application for these things.  They did not mention the bearing quality of the plastics used.  I think most of us do not really like nor need moving parts on our models, so don't need bearing surfaces.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Arkansas
Posted by K-dawg on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 1:38 PM

I have heard people grumble about 3D printing as well. My answer to this is always as follows...

Does it make some things easier? sure it does! BUT, don't forget that someone has to make the 3D object on a computer before it can be printed. If you think it's as easy as the press of a button to crate and object with complex shapes, curves and details in a 3D drawing program then honestly you don't even know enough about it to be having this argument. My major in college was 3D animation and I know EXACTLY how hard it is and the time it takes to make some of these objects. For my senior project I built a 3D model of a late war Panther G... It took several months and a 3 foot stack of references to do it.

So you see the argument against 3D part printing is moot. It is no different than resin parts, photo etch or even a very well detailed plastic kit from the box. The person who enjoys researching every little detail makes the master and prints/cast/etches it for the person who doesn't enjoy those things and would rather buy it. So everyone is happy... :)

Kenneth Childres, Central Arkansas Scale Modelers

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Austin, TX
Posted by DoogsATX on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 12:04 PM

waikong

I just read in the latest issue of Military In Scale, a Russian company, Aria Master, has a new resin kit of a BTR personnel carrier where the master was printed on a 3d printer. I think this is where the 3d printers are headed in the near future for our industry.

I could see that, too. Shortens the design process considerably, vs having to carve everything. I think I'd read somewhere that Eduard was using 3D printing for it's Brassin masters, and given the detail those things pack, I wouldn't be surprised. 

On the Bench: 1/32 Trumpeter P-47 | 1/32 Hasegawa Bf 109G | 1/144 Eduard MiG-21MF x2

On Deck:  1/350 HMS Dreadnought

Blog/Completed Builds: doogsmodels.com

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: NYC, USA
Posted by waikong on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 12:00 PM

I just read in the latest issue of Military In Scale, a Russian company, Aria Master, has a new resin kit of a BTR personnel carrier where the master was printed on a 3d printer. I think this is where the 3d printers are headed in the near future for our industry.

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Austin, TX
Posted by DoogsATX on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 10:39 AM

Eh - this isn't a big concern of mine. I - and most modelers I know - are mostly in it for the building. I'm sure there'd be a market for 3D printed already-built replicas, just like there's a market now for die-cast cars and aircraft. But there'll also be a market for kits.

I guess I just view 3D printing as another medium. Like styrene or resin or photo-etch or turned brass. It's just another way of making parts in miniature. I'll bet within five years we'll see one or more of the aftermarket companies offering products made via 3D printing. Probably limited-run kits as well. And we'll buy these and be very happy with them, if for no other reason than hey, no more sawing off those annoying resin pour blocks.

The bigger question, in time, is what this does to kit design, manufacture and distribution. As cool as the technology is, I don't know if we'll ever see the day that home machines like the MakerBot gain any major adoption. Heck, even as cheap as they are, not too many people buy home photo printers, when it's cheaper to just order prints or pick them up at Costco or whatever. 

But what about big, main-run kits? Will Tamiya still manufacture kits in on location, then ship them worldwide? Or would it make more sense to have one design shop, then print-and-package locations in each major region? Will 3D printing ever reach a point where it's more cost-and-time advantageous than injection molds? Right now, those molds can pop out 60-ish units every minute. How long does it take a 3D printer to create something of similar complexity?

Honestly, the longer-term idea that people have - of being able to buy a file and print the kit of your choice at  home, or at your LHS...I don't see it happening. Possibly for something like the old Revellogram kits, maybe. But the kitmakers will want to ensure quality control (and not have to deal with people printing out dozens of copies and then selling them, etc), so I imagine they'll keep the printing, packaging and distribution within their oversight.

On the Bench: 1/32 Trumpeter P-47 | 1/32 Hasegawa Bf 109G | 1/144 Eduard MiG-21MF x2

On Deck:  1/350 HMS Dreadnought

Blog/Completed Builds: doogsmodels.com

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by Nickg on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 10:06 AM

Don Stauffer
If your reason is to create an art object, that is one thing. If you are intending to make a duplicate of an original object, in smaller size, but as accurately as possible, that is something else

In my opinion, duplicating an original object, in smaller size, but as accurately as possible is just as much an art object as any other. They all take skill, sweat and discipline. These are all aspects of ART.

There is nothing wrong with using machine made parts (I would use them too - happily) as long as you are the one building the model. Now, if a machine built the completed model, that's another story.

Let me add that if you build an exact replica down to the finest detail, and someone else does the same, there would still be differences between the two because of the nature of HAND BUILT. This would never happen if two models were built by a machine, they would be exact, and how boring would that be.

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Utereg
Posted by Borg R3-MC0 on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 8:38 AM

And those infernal tractors will never replace the need for a well bred horse...Stick out tongue

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 8:36 AM

This brings up the question that we occasionally discuss- what is the intent of a model.  If your reason is to create an art object, that is one thing. If you are intending to make a duplicate of an original object, in smaller size, but as accurately as possible, that is something else.  I see this in ship models quite a bit- some folks use exotic woods and varnish the model whereas the prototype was painted. I am of the later disposition.  My object is to make the model as accurate as possible.  Thus, I would like to ellminate individuality as far as it affects accuracy.  To me the individuality and craftsmanship may lie in what detail you choose to model, whether you weather it or not, and such.  If I can use a machine to make a part I will do so, if by doing so it makes a more accurate part.  

I use resin and PE aftermarket stuff, for instance. I still scratchbuild, carving major parts from basswood.  However, when I do, I hope the contours are so accurate that no one notices it is carved by hand from wood.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    September 2012
A little ranting about automation and 3D printing ...
Posted by Nickg on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 8:13 AM

One thing that everyone should understand from the start is that the HUMAN FACTOR CAM NEVER BE DUPLICATED BY MACHINE.

The fact that humans are all different equates to human made "things", even the same "thing", ALWAYS being different as opposed to machine made where the "thing" is ALWAYS the same.

1. There are chess programs out there that can play at grandmaster strength, but that doesn't stop chess players from competing with each other. There is a bigger thrill of beating your human opponent over a chessboard then there is in beating a computer. Matter of fact, we know the popularity of computer games, why not just play them against the computer and be done with it? No, you still have human beings competing against each other for the highest scores, showing off there skills. That's the thing,

2. There are music programs that can duplicate a symphony orchestra with real sample sounds, but that doesn't stop musicians from practicing hours-on-end to improve there technique and perform on there instruments. Try listening to a movie sound track created by computer and sampled sounds, sounds great, I'll admit it, but then listen to a real orchestra perform the same thing...you will be amazed at the difference. The difference the HUMAN FACTOR makes.

3. There are programs that can duplicate great master painters or replicate real paintbrush strokes, but that doesn't stop art from being created with actual paint, by hand, by human beings.

4. Digital photography is a great innovation and helps us record things much quicker and, like on this forum, allows us to post our projects. The downside of digital photography is that we no long have to think as much. For example, when I started in photography, I took several rolls of film with me when I went to make a shot. The film only had 24 to 36 exposures on each roll, so I had to really think about the shot before taking it. Now with digital film, all I do is over and under expose thousands of shots, then go home, download on my computer and select and fix them up in photoshop at my leisure. Easy (for me anyway). It took more skill when using real film then digital because you actually had to know something about how light reacts to the film emulsion etc... Yes, you still have to know many things when using digital film, but one thing you have with digital that you don't have with real film...This is the great UNDO button.

5. There are sewing machines that automatically create embroideries, but why do fine sewers still hand make them.

6. You can buy models already built...they call them toys or collectibles, but there are still great modelers out there who spend days, weeks, months maybe even years on a project. Why? because they challenge the brain and develop human skills, inspire research on the subject at hand and in turn learn more about the history, which, in my opinion, makes a human - a better human.

I can go on and on but...

Don't get me wrong, I love technology, but I also understand the difference that the HUMAN FACTOR makes. When human beings have nothing to strive for they merely exist, but when they have something to strive for and work at it, they live.

There has always been a GREAT distinction between HAND MADE and MACHINE MADE. because every hand made object is different and shows the great craftsmanship and skill that a human can strive for whereas machine made is identical and has no human effort or skill behind it except for the the engineers and programmers involved.

3D printing is a great technology but whether the parts come in a box or downloaded for 3D printing, that's just the first step. The art is putting them together, sanding, filling, painting and detailing by HAND, learning the history and using the skills you've mastered to create a one-of-a-kind "THING" that can never be duplicated by machine.

Machine made is disposable because they can always be replicated when needed.

Hand made can never be replicated, thus will live on when we're gone.

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