Hey guys,

This thread has played itself out. Everything that needed to be said has been said.

Tim

As I tell my dogs, "put your fur down".

Geez. Talk about hackles being raised.

The way I see it, it's simple.

First, I think it's common courtesy to compose posts in a way that others can understand. This being a forum, things can certainly be more casual, but being understandable should be a goal everyone can get behind, surely.

Second, I think it's common courtesy to give those who don't post understandably the benefit of the doubt, and ask them to clarify.

If this were a bar, and someone you were having a drink with said something that you couldn't make out, you wouldn't just turn your back and ignore them, or have them tossed out. You'd just say "what was that?"

well, Dr Brownii, you understood perfectly what I meant

and yes, it is a strong opinion,,,,,,my opinion is strongly biased towards all the folks that fall short of having a Doctorate being able to post and talk about models in a public forum of people that share the same relaxing hobby

I also wrongly believe that a hobby is "something to do that gets a person away from the stress of daily life",,,,,,so, I also wrongly believe that the hobby itself shouldn't add undue stress, instead of removing same

but, since you already knew all of that is what I meant, before you parsed comments, and then posted your laughing smileys at those posts,,,,,,,,,,you see my agenda, plain and simple, and loud and clear,,,,,,,,,your's just seems to be a bit more obvious than you think

again, I will type slowly,,,,,my agenda is inclusionary, your's is exclusionary (let me know when you meet a lot of inclusive people that are elitist, lol)

Well said Tim.

Hey guys,

Some of this will sound familiar, as I posted it in a similar thread by Tanker.

First, let's start by backing off the throttle a bit. No one is roving the forum with a copy of the "AP Style Guide" or the "Chicago Manual of Style" in hand and clubbing transgressors for their misdeeds. (However, if someone was, I'd recommend the CMS, because it is a weightier tome.) Further, no one is getting banned because they misspell words or confuse commas and apostrophes.

Also, commas baffle many people, including experts. All you have to do is look up the argument over the serial comma. (And while I've driven this bus to Comma Town, let's not stay for a visit, OK?)

As I said in the other thread, we all come to the forum with different skill levels, no matter if it's modeling, typing, grammar, spelling, or nose blowing (which I am exceptionally good at). Sometimes we rattle off responses on the keyboard at 22,000 words per minute because we have only a short time to get an idea out before it's back to minding the store. It's not always possible to reread a post and go back and correct the little mistakes, nor do we always want to.

Don't worry about it. I look at the posts on forums, ours included, like normal conversations that we might have in person. Often, we don't speak in complete sentences. There are pauses and ums and errs. There are exchanges of ideas, modifications to earlier statements, and reversals in opinion.

We do prefer people don't SHOUT in posts as a normal means of communication. It is harder to read and is part of our forum guidelines. If it is a persistent problem, we will talk to a member about it. But it's usually self-correcting because you guys are good about letting people know proper decorum.

Can posts be too cryptic? Certainly. Can they be written that way on purpose? Sure. However, what's awesome is that if we don't understand something that another member has written, we can ask for clarification. If it remains cryptic, don't answer it.

So, everyone, from an editor at FSM, let's cut each other a little slack when it comes to spelling and grammar and typing. If something doesn't make sense to you, just ask for clarification.

We're going to let this thread ride for the time being. You guys seem to want to hash some things out and have opinions to share. That's cool. It's been civil for the most part. Let's keep it that way. Don't deride other members or toss around accusations. It's really not worth it and just gets everyone's dander up.

Oh, and let's not hack on the forum either. If you're posting here, it's obviously still a place good enough for you to hang your hat. If you've got concerns, PM Aaron or me and we'll do our best to work it out for you.

Tim

TarnShip

true opinion?,,,,,,,I think that the friggin' Elitists with their snobby agendas should be banned,,,,,,,and the normal modelers that do this for a relaxing hobby should be encouraged to type more

Ummm, I'm just a little curious though... by its very definition, isn't casting out a whole group of people becausee they see the world in a slightly different way than you do an elitist attitude? So would you not be banning yourself? Seems kind of extreme to me...but that is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

true opinion?,,,,,,,I think that the friggin' Elitists with their snobby agendas should be banned,,,,,,,and the normal modelers that do this for a relaxing hobby should be encouraged to type more

OK, here we go...

I don't care about grammar, punctuation, or hanging whatevers. If I need information on a P-40 cockpit, or have information on a B-25 cockpit, and that information is passed on to someone who needs it, that's all I care about. After all, this is about sharing information, not about writing a thesis.

so very tempting to remove all temptation of clicking the FSM link again

we all know how,,,,,,,,just type very clearly and precisely,,,,,,,,one or two words

me am muchly sowwy that me am fawl fer twick of watching this thread sliddddddeeeee right back to where it was before da warnin' was a posted, doncha know

but, the cool part is,,,,,,it was done with "perfect diction, spelling and grammar",,,,,,,without a lick of comprehension on the part of the poster that he is just a "tad on the transparent side"

I wonder if there is a way to find out what the lurkers think of this?,,,,,,,most prolly won't type if they don't think they will type it "perfect enough" for about THREE people

professordeath

Think about it. When you meet someone in person their first impression of you is based on your appearance. Like it or not, that's how it is. I'm not suggesting that it's right or fair, but that's why being well groomed and dressed well is so important. When the first, and only in the case of forums, impression you are giving someone is based on your writing you'll just have to forgive me for forming a negative view because you can't type out "b4" or "l8tr."

You are exactly right. And that is why, to me, in my personal opinion, grammar and spelling and punctuation and all that stuff do matter. Since I am not meeting you in person, my opinion is based on your typed word. Does it have to be flawless? Of course not - I can't meet that standard, I won't hold anyone else to it. But I still prefer to read well written, concise, logical posts. It makes it easier to comprehend and, yes, I'll admit it, it impacts the 'image' I have in my mind of the person who wrote the post.

It seems like we simply draw our line for forming negative opinions in a different place. You reserve yours for those who use 'texting lingo'. Apparently, I'm not so forgiving (or perhaps I have higher standards - just kidding! It was a joke! Don't lose your &%#@ on me!!!!)

hasn't happened to me

I can write just fine if I am writing a chapter, or various chapters scattered all over the book series, heck, I even "switch tech terms" to match which deployment I am writing about at the time,,,,,,the vacuum tube era had different terms than the solid state era, and topics that no longer exist

I even remember not to say "prolly" or use the comma ellispisese,,,,,,,,,,,,,when I am "writing for real"

when I post a technical item, I write it in proper TechSpeak for the time period of the aircraft I am writing about, then switch back to "Bug, Bug, SuperBug and ElectricBug" era when posting about today

        The problem with that theory, as I see it, if you write improperly here, you get in the habit of it and write that way all the time. There was a similar discussion over at ARC a few weeks ago. I have seen letters written inquiring about job opportunities written just like that person writes in texting and or the 'carefree' manner seen in forums. Granted, they were menial labor jobs, but.......  Typos and the like are one thing, but just being lazy and looking ignorant because you can is something entirely different.

I understand and agree with most of the posts here.  However, when reading my local news paper, my head just explodes.  Misspellings, wrong words being used, because of auto correct, and ABSOLUTELY  no proofreading, before submitting the articles.

I have no idea how the OP has his head wired, but as the parent of a gifted dyslexic, I've learned over the last 20 years that while language skills seem to be the most commonly understood measure of "intelligence", they are in fact highly over rated as a true measure. Some people, maybe 10% of the population, just cannot perform well in writing.

TarnShip

in person, these convos don't get to this point,,,,,,,,right after someone says something that gets taken the least bit wrong, they either clarify right away, or the other person says "what was that?", and then the speaker changes the way he says it

Exactly!

See, you and I really do agree!

shrug, I see spelling in the title,,,,,,,,,and I don't see grammar in the title

but, yeah, I probably took "more offense than you intended"

in person, these convos don't get to this point,,,,,,,,right after someone says something that gets taken the least bit wrong, they either clarify right away, or the other person says "what was that?", and then the speaker changes the way he says it

I am still going to "shut up a bit" though,,,,,,,,,the next 47 things I think of to say go "against what people have always known" so much that they will just argue in defense of their own reps instead of adjusting the actual historical record online

TarnShip

yeah, I am the one being obtuse,,,,,,,,I have explained it, in the smallest words I can

I know you can't or won't get it,,,,,,,,,,and I no longer care,,,,,,I know that I can read it, and you just go right ahead with your agenda,,,,,,,I am done

Tarnship

I don't get it. Why do you seem so ticked off at me about this. The point I was trying to make in my last post (apparently none too clearly) is that we see this differently, so we are basically talking about different things. I wasn't trying to be belligerent, I was just making a quick observation. No need to go all "in the smallest words I can" on me...

Look, you want me to concede that there are certain people, "of a certain age" is the phrase that I think you used, who struggle when using the internet to communicate. Fine, I've got no problem with that. But the entire topic of this thread is grammar, punctuation and diction in general, at least according to the title that the OP chose. That is the perspective I have been taking.

I'll take Aaron's advice and walk away, but I did at least want to try to clear the air because I feel like you took this as a greater offense than I ever intended it.

Gents,

This conversation has taken a somewhat ugly turn. As an editor, misspellings and bad grammar are part of my job description ... in the magazine. The Internet is a different kettle of fish and I don't think anyone should be criticizing anyone else on FSM's public forums for errors. This is an unproductive discussion that seems intended only to make other users feel bad about their use of language and/or typing skills. How's about we drop it and get back to what we're really here for: Constructive criticism and discussion of modeling.

For the sake of clarity, this note should be considered a warning. Any member posting inflammatory or abusive posts in this thread after this one will have their account suspended.

Regards, Aaron

I'm all for good spelling and grammar but I think we need to accept that not everyone has the same level of understanding of grammar and spelling. With that said, a poorly written post won't convey it's message and everyone will ignore it. Then the person gets discouraged that no one reads their posts.

Texting is killing spelling and grammar as ppl try 2 get as much said in as few characters as they can. Or they use interwebs slang like boi and what not. That may be fine when texting u bros, but it isn't when posting to a public form full of strangers that you want feedback from.

TL:DR: some basic mistakes are fine; we aren't all English teachers. but writing error filled posts because you're lazy is considerate to your fellow forum mates.

Another forum I belong to has a grammar/spelling police and he is known to criticize others for the lack of grammar/spelling skills.  Unfortunate for that man, he doesn't know the difference in between Their,  They're, Your, You're and so on, so only time I bust someone for the grammar/spelling error is when he makes those mistakes.    I try my best to use proper grammar, spelling and punctuation as a courtesy and respect to others who might be reading my post, but English being my second language, I do slip up more often than I'd like to admit.  

yeah, I am the one being obtuse,,,,,,,,I have explained it, in the smallest words I can

I know you can't or won't get it,,,,,,,,,,and I no longer care,,,,,,I know that I can read it, and you just go right ahead with your agenda,,,,,,,I am done

TarnShip

it is a typo (word spelled wrong), in a thread about misspelled words

And once again, you are proving my point. To you, this thread is aboutt misspelled words. To me, it is not. It's about effective communication.

and you are completely correct,,,,,,I am sure neither of us set out to argue with each other about this

but, there is also a very logical reason for a person typing in All Caps

as a Mod on another site, I once had to learn NOT to ban a certain 65 year old English lady for constantly typing in all caps,,,,,,,,,and I wound up encouraging the chat room members that were her friends to go ahead and type in all caps while she was in the room

at the time, you didn't have a simple scroller on your keyboard that enabled everything on the screen to be enlarged for you,,,,,,,,,the default font we are using right now would just wind up looking like gray lines to her

granted, most modelers can see pretty well,,,,,,,but, there are still some old people out there that "have always modeled" and still haven't quit,,,,,,,,that can't see all that well anymore

heck,,,,,,,,,,,,,I should probably apologize for using the "comma ellipsis" so often,,,,,,except that I mostly used a computer for "really big deal stuff" or in a chatroom,,,,,,,,a lot of people used ellipsises(?ellipsi?),,,,,,,,I developed the habit of using commas in mine to stand out to friends in the chatroom

Browni, "Arguement" is really funny,,,,,,,,,but, only for two reasons,,,,one, it is typed and not verbal, verbally, it wouldn't sound any different

the other reason is the reason I pointed it out,,,,,,,,,it is a typo (word spelled wrong), in a thread about misspelled words

I am merely trying to stand up for a guy that I have learned is "of a certain age", and belongs to a group of people that learned to type in a completely different way than I myself learned, and in a completely different way than anyone younger than my almost 56 years

all of those guys that learned on Underwoods have it different than those of us that learned on Selectrics and Selectric IIs,,,,,,,,and the Selectric group learned differently than the ones that took "Keyboarding" in 8th grade, instead of High School typing class (or gasp !!!, didn't take typing until college)

the bottom line is a simple question,,,,,,,if you ask at 11am saturday what color of yellow to get at the hobby shop before you run out for an hour's drive to get the color, and someone types up an answer,,,,,,,,,can you read it well enough to know that you want a bottle of "Yellow, RLM 4"

if you can, and you get Gelb RLM 04,,,,,,,,,,then the message was typed clear enough by the old guy that painted the yellow cowls on a 'Schmidt before I was a teen able to "just buy a tin of Humbrol or a bottle of Pactra"

It's not about grammar. It's about effective communication. 

Now...I'm no stickler for grammar. I love starting sentences with "but" and hurl massive quantities of adverbs and overuse the ellipsis and yes, even use the dreaded passive voice.

But (see, there I go) this is the internet. Text is how we communicate with one another. And so it has to be comprehensible by others who read it. 

People say that going all caps is the equivalent of screaming. Fair enough. By the same token, I think messy communications are the same as slurring your speech to the point where people can't easily make out what you're saying.

Hmmm... I don't think I said what you think I said... and that is actually kind of funny. Here we are, actually posting pretty clearly worded replies to one another, and still we are talking past one another. Your growing frustration with me indicates that I seem to be missing your point, and I feel you are missing mine. The funny thing is, I don't think either one of us set out to get into a spat with the other - but that is what happens when you only have the written word to respond to, absent emphasis ans facial expression and body language.

That, to me, is why all that grammar 'stuff' is important - it's already hard enough to communicate through this imperfect medium.

PS: "Arguement"... that's funny. Hey, I never claimed to be perfect...

nope, based on my argument,,,,,,you already understood the post a-okay enough (well enough to read, understand, and respond to it)

that was my point, not anything else about Polish, Greek, or Mandarin

and I clearly stated that the WHAT is important,,,,,but, you are still parsing away

hmmm, I thought something was wrong, but, couldn't quite catch it,,,,,,it should have made the post above completely impossible to read,,,,,,,but,,,,,,,,well,,,,,,here, this speaks for itself