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Erich Hartmann vs. Bob Goebel

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  • Member since
    April 2010
  • From: Green Bay, WI
Erich Hartmann vs. Bob Goebel
Posted by redraider56 on Friday, December 21, 2012 7:27 PM

I finally broke down and bought Tamiya's 1/32 Mustang.  I did it with the intention of building the "Flying Dutchman", the P-51D flown by Bob Goebel of the 31st Fighter Group.  I just finished reading his war memoir, Mustang Ace and it was a very good read.  I came across Goebel when reading Five Down And Glory which gives a complete listing of America's aces.  I wanted to learn more about some of Wisconsin's aces (my home state) outside of Richard Bong, and I came across Capt Goebel. 

Anyways, to get to the point of this thread, I came across something quite interesting after finishing up his book.  We all know Erich Hartmann was the ace of aces with over 300 victories to his credit, and all the mainstream sources claim Hartmann was never shot down once.  He did however, make some bailouts, one of which came during a July 3rd, 1944 mission over the Rumanian oil fields to intercept B-24s.  It was some of Hartmann's first action tangling with Mustangs, and after he ran out of ammunition he was jumped by a Mustang from the the 31st FG, which happened to be Goebel's P-51B.  Hartmann claimed he bailed out after running out of fuel trying to run away from Goebel and during his fall to the ground, Goebel made a pass close by to shoot him with his gun camera and to salute him.  This is what you will find in most sources.  However, Goebel's account of that day is quite different.

From the book....

"I spotted two Me-109s above at about one o'clock.  I think the leader saw my flight about the same time.  He had balls, I'll say that for him.  The two 109s started down to attack the bombers below or the four of us; it was a rash act indeed.  Perhaps he had recently come from the Eastern front and had no fear of Russian fighters, but we were not the Yaks or Migs he was used to fooling with.  We broke into them.  In thrity seconds he had realized his mistake. ......I tried to follow my man but I didn't have enough speed.  In military emergency power, I just managed to stagger over the top of the loop, but once I got the nose down I accelerated quickly......Now I began to close the distance.....I stayed slightly low in his blind spot.....the German continued his descending, high speed run.....Now the 109 almost filled my sight.  I had to be in range now!.  Surely I was no more than 200 yards away.  I had the pipper low in the center of his fuselage when I squeezed off the first short burst.  No strikes.......Quickly raising the pipper almost to the tip of his tail, I fired again and was rewarded this time with strikes quick-flashing around the fuselage and wing roots.  then his prop wash thew me off momentarily.  Before I could get the sight back on him for another burst, the pilot left his airplane......putting the gun switch in the Camera Only position I made a pass at him, being careful to break off so my slipstream would not collapse his canopy.  As I passed to the side of him, I raised my gloved  hand in a half wave-half salute and then reformed my flight.....the latest victory brought my total to four."

So, has anyone else looked into this before?  Was Hartmann really defeated by a 21 year old Wisconsinite?  I like to believe Goebel, but it still seems like a sort of mystery.  

-Matt

On The Bench: 1/48 HK B-17G "Man-O-War II"

On Deck: 1/48 Tamiya P-38H, 1/48 Revell PV-1

 

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: AandF in the Badger State
Posted by checkmateking02 on Friday, December 21, 2012 7:57 PM

Chalk one up for the Badger state.

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2012
Posted by Hasenpfeffer on Friday, December 21, 2012 8:08 PM

Well, it never confirms it's Hartmann, so it's really speculation using the facts on our part. Neat story though. From what I remember from the Hartmann book, he was a master of hit and run tactics. He almost never got into a dogfight. Also, he would have barely been 22 years old in July 1944, so Goebel's age isn't really impressive...

  • Member since
    April 2010
  • From: Green Bay, WI
Posted by redraider56 on Friday, December 21, 2012 8:26 PM

Goebel never said anything about Hartmann in his book, but the source from which says Goebel passed by Hartmann in his parachute was Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe in World War II by Philip Kaplan.  The time frame is also right though, as Goebel flew a number of missions to Romania escorting B-24s and for a short period of time in mid 1944, Hartmann flew mission over Romania to intercept B-24s. I would agree there is a certain degree of speculation though.  Perhaps Hartmann had already run out of fuel when Goebel fired.  Who knows.  Maybe it was just a big coincidence, but the pieces do fall together in an intriguing way and apparently Goebel himself believed it was Hartmann after comparing his own account to that in Hartmann's autobriography.  I guess there was an article some years ago in Flight Journal about this very topic and had the title of "Shot Down or Out of Gas?"  Interesting stuff.

-Matt

On The Bench: 1/48 HK B-17G "Man-O-War II"

On Deck: 1/48 Tamiya P-38H, 1/48 Revell PV-1

 

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2010
  • From: Colorado Springs
Posted by Geof on Saturday, December 22, 2012 1:50 AM

My thoughts on this are that it would seem that word would have spread regarding Hartmann and his planes distinctive feature. His tulip nose would be a dead giveaway and if it had indeed been Hartmann that detail would not have been missed or left out in the description...

Photobucket

On the Bench: Tamiya's 1/48 A-10a Thunderbolt 

In the Hangar:  Hmmm???

 

  • Member since
    April 2010
  • From: Green Bay, WI
Posted by redraider56 on Saturday, December 22, 2012 10:32 AM

True but I suppose it would have depended on how well known he was to the Americans since he had been flying missions against them for only a couple of weeks at the time.

-Matt

On The Bench: 1/48 HK B-17G "Man-O-War II"

On Deck: 1/48 Tamiya P-38H, 1/48 Revell PV-1

 

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2010
  • From: MN
Posted by Nathan T on Saturday, December 22, 2012 6:35 PM

He didn't always fly an aircraft with a tulip painted nose...

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2010
  • From: Colorado Springs
Posted by Geof on Monday, December 24, 2012 2:17 AM

Later war I believe he did. I've never seen an associated picture without. To include the jets... My guess is an ace like that would be known in the ranks. Particularly in the rumor mill, even though he did fly primarily on the eastern front.

Photobucket

On the Bench: Tamiya's 1/48 A-10a Thunderbolt 

In the Hangar:  Hmmm???

 

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