Super detail, time, and money

USMC6094

I've gotten away from the aftermarket parts completely, unless theres no way to correct an issue. Case in point the Hasegawa F-4Bs rear cockpit is completely wrong, so I have no other choice.

Lately I've gotten into scratch building and detailing with styrene or other things, solder, wire, and what ever else looks good and does the job. Most of my detailing has been to make my builds less "see-thru" because I like building the older kits.

I hope you are checking out the scratchbuilding forum, the last forum in the Modeling Subjects hierarchy.  We need more participation in that forum.

I've gotten away from the aftermarket parts completely, unless theres no way to correct an issue. Case in point the Hasegawa F-4Bs rear cockpit is completely wrong, so I have no other choice.

Lately I've gotten into scratch building and detailing with styrene or other things, solder, wire, and what ever else looks good and does the job. Most of my detailing has been to make my builds less "see-thru" because I like building the older kits.

I read a lot about kits being super detailed in areas that once build is completed, you will never see the detail and most people will never know its there. I might never attain "master" status, but I dont believe in going completely over board either.

Now dont get me wrong, I love to look at some of these truly masterful builds, but I cant justify to myself the time or monetary expenditure for some of the things they do with resin and PE.

I am with you 100% Barret Duke.  I build models for my own satisfaction.  When they are finished, I want them to look like the real thing ( within reason , wich includes my financial limitations)  not a toy.   I enjoy repurposing " houshold items" to incorporate into my models and the fun of it to me is discovering things like a ball point pen barrel ,when cut up, makes a better more realistic Bofors gun shield on a ship

than the molded in 1

I have 1 "long term " project going . The ship my Father served on in WW II in 1/350 scale, and it has been a trial to say the least so I only work on it occasionally.  In the mean time, I have bought an auction lot of 9  1/72 aircraft for cheap.   I use these to learn new and better techniques in order to improve my long term project but at the same time I'm having fun learning and improving my skills . At my age I am no longer an athlete, no longer a musician but I can still be a scale modeler in my own right.

The larger hobby shops in my area do have some PE and resin accessories, but certainly not a whole lot compared to what is available. If you want generic stuff like seatbelts or such, you may find them at LHS.  Otherwise, for specific detailing sets, you need to mail order.  Squadron, Roll Models, Sprue Bros, etc.  Are good places to try.

I buy most of my stuff from Freetime Hobbies, Squadron, White Ensign and Floating Drydock. (Obviously, I am a ship guy!) All have online websites to order from. You can find most of it on Evil Bay too.

My favorite AM companies are:  KA Models, Pontos, Eduard, White Ensign, Tom's Modelworks and Veteran Models. All have their various strengths and weaknesses  and most will put competing detail sets out for the same kit.  

Lets say I wanted to jump down the super detail rabbit hole.  Where do you guys buy these parts?  I haven't seen them in my local hobby store or at plastic-models.com   are there specialty online retailers?    After looking at the jpegs Chango posted, my mouth dropped.   Luckily my wife and I chose not to have children, and my disposable income is fairly healthy.   I want to see what I can add to my current models.   I've always been an out-of-the box guy, but that is just because I don't know where to get these after market pieces.

I'm not much for competitions, though the few times I've entered my stuff in local shows I've done OK. To each his own, I suppose.

As for detail madness... I've got the bug in a big way. I've already spent an extra maybe $400.00 on my current project (a 1/200 Missour) and the aftermarket has hit new levels of insane for this kit. I know some may see AM stuff as "cheating" but trust me... It usually isn't. AM is a quick way to triple or quadruple the complexity of a build and make builds last years instead of months, especially with ships! Nor does it eliminate the possiblity of scratcbuilding stuff... if nothing, it adds to the load.

I just got a bunch of Veteran Models Bofor quad mounts... almost 40 parts per gun and the gun itself fits nicely within the diameter of a quarter. I hate to tell you how long it takes to build just one.

http://i.imgur.com/rBZT33V.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Zl4TyhE.jpg

The bottom right gun is an "out of the box"  (and ultimately VERY inaccurate) kit bofors for comparison.

Once you've gone down the superdetail rabbit hole you can't come back!

I know I'm crazy but this level of detail is very satisfying and fun for me. Along with getting accurate Bofors I spent a fair amount of time researching the real thing online; now I know more or less how they work too. For me, superdetailing is a learning experience... not only to acquire the skills to play with the scale stuff but to also learn more about the history and technology of their 1/1 counterparts.

Anyway, my rule of thumb for modeling is: do what makes you happy!

Don't build for others, build for yourself... however simple or complicated that may be. That's the nice thing about models... they cover a wide spectrum of subjects and difficulties. If modeling is purely a competitive sport for you, you WILL get frustrated and burned out as there will ALWAYS be somebody better than you and/or with more money/time/experience/dexterity/ better tools/ect. to devote to building than you can muster. Thanks to the internet, you are now competing with the whole world instead of the builders in you region.

Remember, if you aren't having fun, it isn't a hobby!

The competitions were just an excuse for like minded individuals to get together and share their builds with one another. While there are "trophy hounds", most participants just want to let others see their kits and to look at other people.

I used to never think I was good enough of a builder to compete. I just went to shows and like to browse the vendors and look at the outstanding works of others. Then I brought a few kits to local shows and won some plaques. I only entered because some of my club members convinced me to do so. It was fun, but I haven't entered any in quite some time.

For some modelers, their passion is in completing models in time for a show and doing well. It might be different for you, but that's why some people like the color blue and others prefer red or green, etc. Different tastes for different people.

Bottom line, without guys entering models, there wouldn't be a show; no raffles with great prizes, no vendors with great deals, no piles of hard to find stuff, none of the seminars that some shows have, etc.

Although I used to be a detail nut, I began to think about backing off, and modeling in larger scale, as age began to make it harder to see and especially handle small detail. I found many optical aids available to handle the vision problem.  The finger agility is something else.  Attempts to do small finger work sometimes causes finger tremors to start.  But, I remembered that old saying about "use it or lose it."  Am just finishing up a 1:350 heavy cruiser with lots of PE and fine rigging.  I am just about complete.  Sure, it was harder than it used to be, but I feel in doing the work I am prolonging the length of time I will be able to build models.

I also found that while the first few attempts at some task (like rigging the signal halyards) were almost traumatic, my muscles became trained to the work again on about the third or forth pair.  Not only do we need to acquire skill initially, I find many tasks that we have been able to do in the past require some retraining- some coming up to speed again if we have not done it for awhile.  So if we just accept this as a fact of life, it becomes less burdensome. It may not be fun while we are training or  retraining, but once we have, the fine detail we start putting on the model is definitely fun!

I have generally tried to stay away from too much crazy detailing, for a few reasons, one I have never and probably never will have the advanced skills to get the complete worth out of the detail parts, two, the money factor, I cant justify buying a hundred dollars in resin for a twenty five dollar kit, and three, I like to have good reference materials and decals.

I've tried my hand at basic scratch building, but I'll expand my skill base eventually.

On a personal note, all this hype about PE,resin, and contests ran me out of the hobby in 2007. I was a member of a club that was a contest organization at the time, it has since changed drastically though, and if your builds weren't the newest, latest, greatest, and full of PE and resin, they had nothing good to say about your model, no matter how well it turned out. That can wear on a person, so I called it a day and went on to more interesting things. Well now I have returned and am enjoying it, I'm building to suit me, PERIOD.

Okay I'll stop rambling, but build as you can and your skills will grow, but remember what opinions are like, if you like your finished product that should be good enough, and if you want to do better on the next one ( as I believe all modelers do) try something to push your skill set on the next one.

Competition is natural in humans. It probably is in our hardwiring from hunter gatherer days. It exists in one form or another in nearly everything we do. As far as it pertains to modeling one has no need to compete against other builders, but using your F-117 example, don't you want the "best" kit of that plane in your collection? We even compete against ourselves. Are we not all trying to improve our modeling skills so that our latest build is done better than our first ever?

this is kind of a tough subject.  I generally don't understand why Adults feel the need to compete.  I build models because of that feeling you get when you finally finish it and just stare at it for hours.  Thats why you should be in this hobby.  My favorite aircraft of all time is the F-117, it has fascinated me since I was young.  I have built 5 or 6 different F-117's.   I do it because I love the airplane and I love building models.  Competition kills the passion and fun.  

geez, Silver,,,,,,,,,you took 4th/Copper at a few shows, we get it.  (except the one that you entered the Die-Cast in)

I was just joking with some Modelers and Vendors (and Modeler/Vendors) at a show in Alabama on Saturday about how serious some take the competition aspect of the shows.

We laughed and agreed that we pretty much build at the 4th-25th or Copper down to Lead levels with our "normal" models, and then try for 1-2-3 or G-S-B with certain models when the urge strikes us. But, we were pretty sure that we didn't want to judge that day, and then later, we agreed that the "best model won" in each category at the show.

Sometimes a judge might make a mistake,,,,,,,,but, more often than not, if you "built a 1st place model, guaranteed" and it took 2nd, 3rd or 25th, it was because a judge saw a mistake that the builder missed.

Rex

(it is 2014, and this is the internet, so, here is some optional reading. I do know that awards aren't given for 4th to 25th, and I do know that there is no Copper or Lead level at a GSB event,,,,,,,,but, we were rushing to claim the lowest build level we could, in the spirit of joking and having fun,,,,,,,heck, Anne suggested that my models were really "Sulphur level", because they were worse than Lead, and stink when burned)

Nathan T

Your second point Don is what held me back from scratch building for quite sometime. It took me awhile to build up a collection of different shapes and sizes of Evergreen plastic, as well as different tools such as razor saws, more drill bits, more hobby knives, punch sets, wire, and lots of brass and aluminum micro tubing. And don't forget bare metal foil, as well as ref books. And now I can't live without these!

I find I need those supplies even for kits (other than an OOB build).  The tools are something else. I still do not have a decent set of very small punches (been modeling for over 65 years).  Building a decent miniature punch set is on my to-do list. One thing I find about scratch builders is that we tend to build a lot of our own tools, too.

Hi ;

  Even if they are " Pipe Dreams " it keeps you plugging along ,  doesn't it ? I too , at 71 and am on a fixed income (very decidedly Fixed ) it is a dream on most of them .Do I pay rent or buy that very expensive ship kit  (.Well , buy the ship kit , of course ! )  Just kidding there , It's pay the rent and continue building what's in front of me . Ah , well , it's still good  .I am here and I am still modeling !

Don Stauffer

If we mean the cost per hour as meaning at ordinary building speed, then building slowly doesn't accomplish anything.  My whole point is that we sometimes shy away from buying an expensive kit just because of the price.  If it is a long and complicated kit, you can sell it to significant other on the cost per year basis :-)  

And I would strongly argue that scratch building improves both the cost per hour and the cost per model.  The one hiccup might be if the scratch project requires some expensive tool that you don't need for kit building nor for normal activities around house (I occasionally build some furniture, so the woodworking tools can be amortized over that as well as my scratch modeling).

Nope, financially I can not sell buying an expensive kit to mama, because if we can not afford it, we can not afford it. Be it $50 or $250. Financial times are tight right now with no prospect of improvement on the immediate horizon. And I am one who knows that "Hope" is not a method. One of the guys in my AMPS Chapter ribbed me about that if instead of building all those older less expensive kits, I could afford to buy one or two new expensive kits. I had to explain to him that most of those older kits were bought when: 1) I was in a better place financially, 2) they were the only game in town available, and 3) those new expensive kits that he was referring to were only pipe dreams.

Your second point Don is what held me back from scratch building for quite sometime. It took me awhile to build up a collection of different shapes and sizes of Evergreen plastic, as well as different tools such as razor saws, more drill bits, more hobby knives, punch sets, wire, and lots of brass and aluminum micro tubing. And don't forget bare metal foil, as well as ref books. And now I can't live without these!

If we mean the cost per hour as meaning at ordinary building speed, then building slowly doesn't accomplish anything.  My whole point is that we sometimes shy away from buying an expensive kit just because of the price.  If it is a long and complicated kit, you can sell it to significant other on the cost per year basis :-)  

And I would strongly argue that scratch building improves both the cost per hour and the cost per model.  The one hiccup might be if the scratch project requires some expensive tool that you don't need for kit building nor for normal activities around house (I occasionally build some furniture, so the woodworking tools can be amortized over that as well as my scratch modeling).

Hi :

Well I do have to say this .I don't look at " Cost per hour " at all . I look at time well spent doing what I love . That is creating ships that no one makes in model form and believe me there are lots of those  .Now going back to Don's last comment  .I do build from wood as well as plastic and paper ( that's right , I said paper ) in a lot of scales too  .My real pleasure lies in the little speed boats that you see in my avatar .Take one block of aspen or basswood and then see if I can get the classic shape of a 1948 " barrelback " twin cockpit classic boat with mahogany over planking and all the cockpit details too !That is a big break from the ordinary .

  Let this be a reminder though .Don't think in " Cost per hour " think in terms of  " Gee , what a pleasure that was to build , I didn't think  I've been working on it that long .Time flies when you are enjoying yourself " After all,  with or without the A.M it is a Hobby , isn't it ? I only worry about cost per hour when it is a commission piece .

Well I build slowly enough nowadays, whether OOB, adding AM, or scratching my own super detail work. So that argument of cost per hour does not really fly with me either. If I add a ton of details that I made myself from wire and sheet/strip/rod styrene stock, it will likely take me longer to create and at a lower cost, than if I buy a PE fret to do the same thing at a higher cost.

I don't know if I buy the whole cost per hour philosophy in modeling. It's like saying "if you want to save money, then you must build slowly". I'm concerned about my cost per kit. If I can learn to do without a bunch of fancy aftermarket and yet still add extra detail using cheaper methods, then I can save money on each build regardless of how many hours it takes me to finish.

Haha, as a former ship modeler, I have to say, there have been a couple of ship kits that require us to "re-invent the hull"  In fact they are quite famous throughout the ship modeling world.

I have to fess up, when I sold off my unbuilt ship collection, I kept about two dozen of those Destroyer and smaller ship models, and enough PE to build them.

They are cool little diversions from the Aviation related stuff, and are cheap to super-detail with PE and resin parts, but, at 1/700 they don't take up a lot of room. I use them to get my "tiny parts" urges filled, that way I can build the aircraft models the way I described in my previous post. And I get to build 1/700 Sherman tanks for the Landing Craft type of ships.

The real trick with all of this,,,,,,,,no matter what level you choose to go to,,,,,,is to actually stick to that level once you decide it. If you decide that almost all of your models will be OOB except for one type, say one you worked on, then don't buy 400 aftermarket kits for the other models.

It is extremely easy to start buying cockpits for this, seats for that, PE for those, resin turrets for that ship, decals for everything,,,,,,,,and books.

I don't know if this would help anyone else, but, I typed my "modeling objective" out and printed it. It has actually acted as a brake when sitting at the PC, where all the "click and buy" action happens.

Rex

re invent the hull? ;-)

My original post was meant to apply to ship kits, but since I do dabble in scratchbuilt ships now and then, I'll comment on this too. I think scratch built ships are quite economical!  I also find it takes a year, even more, for a scratchbuilt ship.  I build them from basswood or clear pine or aspen, widely available and reasonably priced material.  I even use the wood for larger deck structures, but use the styrene for smaller stuff.  All pretty inexpensive material.  Since I specialize in Great Lakes ships, there is not as much aftermarket material available, so don't buy many commercial fittings nor PE, though if it is a scale where railings are available in PE, as in 1:192 or 1:350 I do often buy the railings.  But a set of pe railings is still not that expensive for a project that takes a year or more.  When I am doing one of these kind of products my expenses are pretty low!

Let's face it, scratchbuilding of ships was the original modelbuilding, long before there were firms selling model kits.  And, before there were airplanes, cars, tanks, and such.  So we have a long tradition and a history to look back on and not have to reinvent any wheels (or masts?).

Hi DON :

  Well you certainly hit the nail on the head here .I will take maybe a year to do one or two ships with the works and then in between I do OOBs mostly . I find that my ships that are 1/160 and 1/87 are the most fun though . It takes about three years to finish one using only found materials or crossover parts cheap at a model railroad show . I have railed both ships I have this way . Deck details are in my K&S brass and Evergreen bins . More fun and cheaper that way . I still will do stuff no one sees unless they ask . Then off comes the bridge , 02 deck , 01 deck and Deckhouse to show that glorious engine room . I know ,kind of anal ,but I enjoy the looks when I do this .Detailed cabins , you bet !