Challenge Publications Modeling Magazines

Hi Richard

Scale Ship Modeler is the mag you are thinking of, I was a long time subscriber.

I've read your articles on one of the online sites that "updated monthly" with articles,,,the old format Internet Modeler? perhaps?

Rex

Hey Rex,

Yep, you're correct.  Wrote the Scaleworld column for several years.  Left when manufacturers started thinking that, with both me and Internet Modeler requesting samples, that IM was double dipping.  That wasn't true since Scaleworld was a standalone production, but you couldn't get them to understand it.

I now have a separate Scaleworld site called Richard Marmo's Scaleworld...scaleworld dot squarespace dot com...but I haven't done much on it.  Right now I'm writing for two print magazines, Toy Farmer and Toy Trucker & Contractor.  I'm also producing ebooks with subjects ranging from modelbuilding...The Marmo Method Modelbuilding Guides series...to the suspected murder...Was It Murder?... of my Great-grandfather by his second wife.  Those are all listed on my author's site that I've finally gotten around to creating...richardmarmo dot com.

Oh, yeah, I'm still an aircraft nut, regardless of what else I write about.

Then in my spare time....

Richard

I started subscribing to Military Modeler while as a young second lieutenant around the fall of 1987 and continued until its demise sometime in the mid 1990s. I remember it merging with Scale Modeler to become Scale & Military Modeler, then shortly afterwards dropped the "Military" from the title. The last few issues were just a car magazine, not even model related. I think it was around the summer of 1997 or so. I ran across the box of those magazines just last night.

I got a penpal from the magazine who was a 13 year old boy. He's now in his thirties.

Hi Rex.  I certainly remember Challenge Pubs, and did a few articles for Model Car Science and for Scale Ship Modeler.  Still cranking out model cars, ships and planes.

I must have seen some of your ship models, then. That is sort of cool, when you realize that you have been talking to someone who's models you used to look at in magazines.

that sort of thing happens at contests and the Nats, too,,,,,,,you get talking along, and someone walks up and joins your convo, and he is an author, or one of the aftermarket producers, etc

Rex

From an author's perspective, it can be interesting to see the reaction from others when they find out you are one.  The reactions to the simple fact that I am an author...never mind what the subject is...has ranged all the way from true respect to comments like "I could never build a model as good as the one you did for Scale Modeler (or Modelworld or any other magazine title)",  "That's too deep for me", "How do you think of something to write about?", "Boy, I bet you make a lot of money!" and "When are you going to get a real job?".

If they only knew!!

Loooooong before the days of FSM, as a kid I used to pick up Scale Modeler regularly at the grocery store or drug store (when I had enough money in my allowance).  Still have a few articles torn from it, saved as reference material.

I have extremely mixed opinions about Challenge. For a long time its modeling magazines were, in the U.S. at least, the only games in town. When I was in high school and college I got a lot of inspiration from them.

The very first thing I published was an article in Scale Modeler about a model of the revenue cutter Roger B. Taney, based on the old Pyro kit. I wrote and submitted the article when I was in high school. The magazine got around to publishing it when I was in my first year of grad school - six years later. And getting payment (the princely sum of $25.00) was like pulling teeth.

I was a big fan of Scale Ship Modeler during the years in which it was edited by Loren Perry (aka Gold Medal Models). But he abruptly left (for reasons that are none of my business), and the magazine went downhill.

The company had its share of critics. There were all sorts of rumors (many of them probably urban legends) about how it was really making its money. And it was frequently remarked that the bigger the ad a manufacturer bought, the better reviews its products got.

The owner of the hobby shop where I worked eventually got fed up with Challenge (I don't remember the precise reason), and quit stocking its publications. At about that time he started carrying the grand old British monthly Scale Models (from Model and Allied Publishers - which had been in business since the thirties, I believe). There was another nice British one called Almark Magazine. (Almark was a decal manufacturer who also had a line of small cast metal figures), but it went bust after a few years. The FSM arrived on the scene, and many American modelers shifted their allegiance from Challenge. I was one of them - though I continued to buy Scale Models every month for years.

People who've gotten into the hobby in the past couple of decades don't realize how lucky they are - in terms of the quality of the available kits and the informational resources as well.

You are correct in your recollections about Challenge Publications.  When their first issue hit the stands, it was to a lot of fanfare for the simple reason that Scale Modeler was...for all practical purposes...the first American publication that specifically targeted what would become known as the serious plastic modeler.

The criticisms the magazine and its offshoots received were well deserved in many ways.  Incidentally, pulling teeth with your bare hands was easier than getting your money from them.  If I had been depending on the amount they paid...as well as when they finally paid it...I could've never made even part of my living by writing for them.  As far as the 'rumors' regarding how they made their real money, that one is true... assuming you've heard the story I did or found some of their other publications on the newsstand.  If you'll PM me at my gmail address, we'll see if we're both on the same page.

Still, it can be argued that without Challenge Publications and Scale Modeler, not only would modelbuilding exist as we know it today and FSM...if it existed at all...would not be the magazine we're all familiar with.

I'll second that comment about the timing of Scale Modeler. When they hit the scene, we had two model aircraft magazines in America that were of any use to the plastic modeler.

One was Model Airplanes News, MAN was a flying model magazine, but, had scale plans inside that we could use to make conversions or balsa aircraft with.

The other was American Aircraft Modeler,,,AAM was also a flying model magazine, but, they had a feature called "Scale Techniques for the Plastic Modeler", this feature had things like a one page article about the colors of American bombs (with the correct colors, no less, I just had it out yesterday), to a three page article on building F11Cs and BFCs in plastic.

Our one saving grace back then was anyone that had a hobby shop or a friend that could get Airfix Magazine from England. They did almost all Airfix kits, but, they also did research pieces that could help with your Revell model.

At the same time as Challenge had Scale Modeler, they also had Air Classics,,,,,,those two, plus the mags I talked about above,,,,,,and the Wings and Airpower, kept us in information access until the next Aircam and Profile editions came out. There was a pub from Airfix that I can't remember the name of, but, it featured conversions of Airfix Armour and Trucks in every edition.

1969 wasn't really as big of a "dry spell" for modelers as a lot of people think,,,,,,,,,,I was buying every model magazine and paperback book concerning aircraft (and sometimes tanks), and my $0.95 an hour could hardly keep up, even though the mags had prices like $1.00 (Scale Modeler, December 1967)  or 2s 6d on them. (Airfix Magazine, April 1970)

Rex

Rex, you're very right in all that you say.  1969...along with the next few years... was on its way to becoming what we would consider the Golden Age of modelbuilding.  Today, with the plethora of model kits and aftermarket detail sets, we now call the present day the Golden Age.  In truth, the late 60s - early 70s would now be considered the First Golden Age of Modelbuilding and the current time period identified as the Second Golden Age of Modelbuilding.

The IPMS/USA was gettng its feet under it after being established in 1964 and some of us were writing how-to articles dealing with plastic models even before Scale Modeler.  I did a conversion of the Airfix 1/72 He-111H to an He-111Z that appeared in American Aircraft Modeler, as well as a 1/72 scale conversion of the Boeing B-47 into a Junkers Ju-287 for the same magazine.

Yep, in retrospect those were good times.  Sure, the minimum wage was $1.25 an hour, gas was 17 cents a gallon and a large paycheck for a week was maybe $35 after deductions.  But at the same time, 1/48 scale Aurora biplanes were 79 cents to 98 cents and magazines were 50 cents to a dollar.

Today kits that include more detail out of the box than we ever thought we'd see back in 1969 frequently carry a price tag well over $100...and then we go out and spend another $100 or more on aftermarket detail sets to make it even better...because that expensive kit still isn't good enough!

I just realized something. I just noticed your IPMS/USA number,,,,and that made me realize that in 1969, I was one of those "kids in the hobby shop" to guys like you. In 1969, I was twelve, and had been modeling for 4 years, and had just "turned serious" about it that summer. I'll be 58 just after New Year, with 50 continuous years of modeling behind me. And I was feeling pretty old. But, compared to a few on here and other message boards, I am "one of the younger guys".

I had that "Zwilling article" around for a while, but, when I stopped building German aircraft, that magazine and a book set that I can't think of the name (Gunston, maybe?), went to the guy that got all my "bf-109s and up" things.

Well, time to run out to the mailbox, I might have the decal set I ordered, Vagabond has released a sheet in my scale that gets rid of that pesky "wrong sized Jolly Roger flag" for Phantoms. Maybe now, when I build my 4th JR Phantom, I will finally "get it right"

what a hobby

Rex

Hey Rex, age is all in the mind.  As far as I'm concerned, I'm still 29.  Still writing and building models as a business (and hobby) and still trying to figure out what the current modelers would like to see in the way of article subjects.  BTW, I still have the tear sheets for the Zwilling article.  I'm tempted to post some of my old articles on a blog or website or maybe even do a collection of them in an ebook.  Problem is that a lot of them are black and white or would have to be scanned from the old magazine pages...which would not be current quality.

You're right.  What a hobby...and what a business!

I don't think anyone truly interested in history is going to mind something being Black and White, or of "old quality"

That 45 year old one page ordnance paint article was one Black and White, I have used it for 45 years now, and it is Black and "Yellowish-Brown". That doesn't hurt its usefulness one bit. It is the shape of the drawings in old articles that is important, not the shape that they are in.

Take a minute to stop and think about all the things that we have seen or read that are not yet online,,,,,even old photos of pages in a blog would get that info out there. As long as you own the copyrights yourself, that is. A lot of info that I have I won't post online because I don't want to violate the copyrights of the authors, even if they were published 20 years ago.

About the only time I will post a copyrighted image is if it is the cover of a magazine or book,,,,,my reasoning is that those photos were chosen to advertise the publication, intimating that they wanted those things to be seen by as many people as possible.

Rex

Rex,  interesting points.  Generally speaking, it's the format that is the controlling factor.  Beyond that, I have leftover photos of many of the articles that were not submitted to Challenge.  Somewhat less quality, but that can be overcome to some degree with modern editing programs.  

But this does raise an interesting problem if I produced a series of ebooks containing a collection of my articles: What would I call it?  Of course an alternative would be to produce a separate ebook for each article, but I wonder how practical that would be?  However, by doing that, there would be no need to mention Challenge or tell where the article first appeared, just that it was an old article first published in such and such a year.  This would be necessary to explain the b & W and lower quality.

Your thoughts?

"Scaleworld of the Past"? or just go ahead and call it "Marmo's Scaleworld" or "Scaleworld Musings",,,,,,I like that last one, I think.

I think a small collection of 5 or 6 articles in each volume would be worth the effort. Let them skip all over the place in each set, sort of like magazines always have. Or deliberately try to include a prop plane,  a jet, a ship, an afv, etc, in each issue.

They could be presented as an ebook or emag without adds.

I think that any attempt at getting info out to the modelers is worth the effort, especially in a medium such as an ebook or a blog,,,,,,,,look at how much Tommy has been able to put out there for Navair fans tailspintopics.blogspot.com and http://thanlont.blogspot.com/  Even if you only have a few readers, as long as you aren't spending a fortune to print paper with photo reproduction costs, that means you will have spread the info out to *someone*

I have copyright issues to worry about, so I am working at it from another angle,,,,,,as long as a reader trusts me not to make things up, I am going to present different bits of info in model form,,,,,,such as an outline of Phantom weapons pylons presented as the different pylon variants tacked onto a Phantom Mule model, just to show the differences,,,,or a Skyhawk with a bunch of different weapons hanging from the pylons to show just what a Mk 94 Chem looks like compared to a Mk 82 bomb

my only expense will be the costs of operating a camera, lol,,,,,,,so basically it is only my time invested

your stuff is already written or already gathered, so presenting it might be almost considered to be free advertising,,,,,,the next "physical print" project you present might be recognized as "oh, that is by that Marmo guy, I have his Swordfish emag"

hmmm, more rambling thoughts for you to consider, it seems

Rex

oh, and as to the photo quality

Because of my chosen subject matter, I find the trend to publish "the best" photos only, to be of little use to me as references.

Those high gloss, very pretty color photos in the 8 by 10 size of the Collings Foundation Phantom are of absolutely no use to me when I build a Vietnam era F-4C, D, or E. The old, tiny, Black and White photos in old Squadron pubs are VERY helpful to me, because they either show weapons combos that are out of the mainstream, or airframe details that help me build a model. Pretty posed Color photos of an aircraft loaded with Fuel tanks and a travel pod don't help much at all

The info in the photo is the value, not the presentation.

Rex

Regarding the rumors about Challenge's source of income - let's cut to the chase. The big rumor was that Challenge was primarily a porn operation.

Sometime back in the nineties (I think) I was surprised to see my name listed as an author in Sea Classics. (Apologies for the lack of italics.) I had made a series of drawings for the Coast Guard Historian's Office. Because they were paid for with government money, they were (and are) in the public domain. Challenge "proudly presented" a "portfolio" of them, thoroughly garbling who had drawn them and not acknowledging where it had gotten them. Challenge was charging money for material that was already available to the public for free.

The CG Historian and I talked about taking legal action, but concluded that it wouldn't be worth the trouble. I do remember the last line of the letter I sent to Challenge: "Be advised that if my name ever appears in any of your magazines again I will examine the issue in question with a microscope, in the fervent hope of finding grounds for a lawsuit." I never got an answer. Sea Classics shut down shortly thereafter.

That was no rumor about the Challenge porn operation.  The way I first heard about it is that a modeler... maybe and IPMS member, maybe not...was in Canoga Park and was all hot to trot about visiting what was then considered to be the mecca for serious modelers....Scale Modeler.

They welcomed him and gave him a tour of the place.  Walking down an aisle between a bunch of desks...with everyone working on the latest issue...the modeler looked to one side of the aisle and saw what he expected to see.  Models and model magazines.  Then he looked on the other side and got an education: Hardcore porn of the XXX variety.

Not too long after that, I was in a newsstand and discovered that a number of 'adult' magazines...the kind that could only have their title displayed while a white sleeve covered the rest...were published by Challenge.  You could tell because the Challenge logo was visible in the upper left hand corner of the cover.  And, no, I never bought or looked at any of those magazines.

Take a look at my current ebooks at  http://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/richard-marmo?store=allproducts&keyword=richard+marmo and let me know what you think of the stuff you see there.  Following your suggestion, an ebook that contained 5or 6 articles in each volume would probably be priced at $2.99 each.  Whatcha' think?

Anything that appears on B&N...and most other sites other than Amazon...will be in the epub fomat.  They would also be available in a fixed PDF format on the Smashwords site and I could also offer PDFs on my own Scale Publications website.

In any event, the articles would not be scanned magazine pages.  Instead, I would scan the photos if I didn't have spares here that I could use, and the text would also be retyped into a new document and layout.  There would be a note telling modelers when the article was published and why some of the photos are of low quality.

As for a title, they don't need to be part of my Modelbuilding Guides series.  Instead, how about Richard Marmo's Collected Modelbuilding Articles, Vol 1.?  The volume number will obviously change with each ebook.

Modeling articles sometimes get very dated. While basic/intermediate/advanced building techniques and scratchbuilding articles are forever; many articles about making a certain subject could be obsolete as new models are produced.

A very good kitbashing article about making the ultimate version of a specific subject today could be rendered useless if an uber-kit of that subject is produced tomorrow. A good article twenty years ago might be based on a model no longer available.

Or just simply wrong today....think about the for sure things you knew about what colors Luftwaffe planes were, or how the Japanese painted their aircraft interiors 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago compared to now. Old articles are good for nostalgia and sometimes a building technique or 2. As a reference, not always so much.

Then there are the articles that if someone today had "found" them, that subject wouldn't get "discovered" today.

Two items in the last year,,,,,,,,,,one was the "discovery" of the F-4D and C without any IR fairing on their radomes. These were the cover article in an Airfix magazine issue back in 1970. But, someone noticing those noses this year caused a huge thread when those noses were "discovered" (hint, look up Iranian F-4D, those noses were very well known)  The other was the "confusion and discovery" of the difference in the rear fuselage area just ahead of the engine exhausts on F-4s of different marks. Again, just look at old versions of articles and they were being drawn with those differences,,,,,,,but, left out in "newer and better" publications.

A whole bunch of this "new info" really falls into the category of "forgotten knowledge". Those old articles still can help teach those bits of information. Not to mention that most of those old conversions can still be done in the old fashioned way by people that want to save money. Also, even if you don't want to convert a P-36 into a YiP-37, the methods can still be applied to other aircraft that don't have a commercial kit available,,,,,such as building a P5M-1 from the SP-5B kit.

Just because something was written before "Wiki-researching" was invented doesn't make it wrong,,,,,oftentimes the old written work is a reference that could have fixed the "Wiki-errors" if someone had just looked it up via inter-library loan.

Rex

ps, hmm, this has got me thinking,,,,,,should I continue typing up "old info" as answers to the "what did blah, blah, blah carry on their Skyhawks in Vietnam" or "what color was the trim on an XYZ?",,,,,,or should I just loudly proclaim it all as "newly discovered knowledge"?, which seemingly would increase my Blog hits.

Rob, MJames70 and Rex,  y'all make excellent points.  Granted that the majority of articles become dated rather quickly...heck, even books do...the old articles still have value for new modelers.  The reason I say this is that I have recently run across a couple of people browsing the kits at Hobby Lobby.  Both were adults who had built a couple or three models in the past and were now looking for a kit they could help their kids with.  To make a long story short, what they were looking at were some of the old Revell and Monogram kits that had been repopped.

Granted, most of those kits aren't up to current standards, but they're cheaper and can produce very nice results if you want to put some effort into it.  They also make great starter kits.  If the older articles that dealt with those kits when they were new were available, it would go a long way towards helping them become better modelers.

Rex, as you say, what we're really dealing with here is "forgotten" knowledge.  Because everyone now uses current techniques, the way we used to do it is forgotten...in spite of the fact that some of the old methods still work today as well as they did then.  Does that mean we should forget the old methods just because the new ways have more glitz and glamour to it?  Or because that's the way everyone does it now?  I've never told anyone that they had to use a specific technique that I use to get a certain result if they have a different method that gets the same or better result and never will.

Finally, keep in mind that Round2Models is acquiring the licenses to a number of manufacturers...notably AMT, Polar Lights, Hawk and Lindberg...and repopping a whole slew of the old kits.  A lot of these kits, particularly some of the odd scale aircraft from Lindberg, don't need all the fancy methods we've developed of late.  But if the old articles were available again, they'd be a big help to new modelers who are just starting out.  

Rob and MJames70, go back to your early modelbuilding days.   Which would you have rather built as your third or fourth kit while you were still learning how to control glue and wondering what putty was?  A $150 Trumpeter P-38J in 1/32 scale....or a $19 Revell P-38J in 1/32 scale?  Granted, the Revell kit is a dog by today's standards, but it builds into a nice looking model by anyone's standards and can be turned into a prize winning model by those of us who know how.

I could go on, but I think you'll agree that there is a place for the old articles.  Remember, at some point in time, everything old is new again.

There is value in old build articles (heck even new articles) that describe how to improve old kits that are still in production. The articles I was describing are ones based on how to convert one tank into another variant that isn't available by combining two or more similar kits and plenty of scratch building.

For instance Shepard Paine's book Modeling Tanks and Military Vehicles has an article about using two kits, the kitchen sink and a whole lot of advanced scratch building techniques to create an Israeli Super Sherman. Or you can buy one of several current kits of the Super Sherman based on your skill level and disposable income and obtain the same results.

Not saying the old article has no value; there are techniques described that will assist you in improving modeling skills. And if you wanted to retrace his steps to build your own just like his, it's there for you to use.

Don't assume that I'm some Wikipedia reliant millennial - I would guess most of us are closer in age than you might think. I bought Challenge mags off the rack in the 70s, too. If accuracy is a concern, relying any one source, old or modern, is perilous. Being closer to the source date wise is no guarantee of accuracy any more than modern resources are. Mistakes are made in both. And if you're just building to have some fun, by all means go ahead and paint a violet Rufe or model the Yamato with only one wing secondary battery turret...

While technically speaking, multiple sources are supposed to be the best,,,,,,,,,that runs us up against another wall when trying to determine the facts.

A small example,,,,,,,it is stated all over the internet and in modern print publications that 16440 and 36440 are the same color. And that is true today, but was NOT true at the time that aircraft were actually painted in those two colors. We knew it was different then, and now it is *known* that they are the same.

That is the problem with the "taking a poll" method of verifying our facts,,,,,,,,the majority is not always right. We still knew it "right" as of about 1989 or so, when the Monogram Naval publication was released,,,,and ever since then, the majority has "learned" the new understanding,,,,,instead of the correct info.

For some info, "only one source" really is the correct way to go.

Rex

In sailing ship model building, many of the best sources are old - real old. The old ones fall into two categories. The primary sources (such as Steel's Elements of Rigging and Seamanship) date, in many cases, from the seventeenth, eighteenth, and nineteenth centuries. (For that matter, I guess we have to consider the twentieth century pretty old now.) They're invaluable, and always will be for people building models of ships from those periods. Thank goodness for the publishers who make reprints available.

Then there's a group of old books about modeling techniques. In recent years we've been fortunate to have quite a few good new books appear. (I'm thinking of those by Phillip Reed, for instance.) But many of the old classics are so good that they've never been surpassed. Every sailing ship modeler wants a copy of Longridge's Anatomy of Nelson's Ships, McNarry's Ship Models in Miniature, and Underhill's Plank-on-Frame Modeling. Many of the tools, materials and techniques in them are obsolete now, but the books are still extremely valuable - and inspirational.

One of the first things a history major learns (or should learn) is how to distinguish between primary and secondary sources, and to recognize that a given source may be extremely valuable in one respect and useless in others. Classic example: an eyewitness account of the Battle of Gettysburg by an infantryman who fought in it is priceless as an account of an event from his particular viewpoint. But it isn't likely to help much in placing that battle in the strategic  or political context - let alone the historical one.

All that said, I wouldn't recommend that any modeler devote a great deal of effort to seeking out articles in Scale Modeler or Sea Classics. Some of the stories in the latter, in particular, were...well, mighty basic, and sometimes pretty bad.  And I don't think many of the modeling articles covered subjects that haven't been dealt with at least as thoroughly in other publications since. And my recollection of Scale Ship Modeler (my favorite of the Challenge stable) is that many of its best articles had to do with r/c models. I know next to nothing about r/c, but I have the impression that articles about it written in the sixties would be curiosities nowadays.

It appears, from the direction this thread has taken, that there would be at least some interest and value in producing an ebook series of some of my old articles.  While the majority focus on aircraft, they do run the gamut from how to pack models for shipping to -believe this one or not- a 3D jigsaw puzzle of a Mississippi Riverboat.

At the same time, I'm getting ready to create an ebook that takes several kits of one of the oldie but goodie kits that has stood the test of time and building one as a more or less OOB version. The other two will reside on various levels of all the bells and whistles with modern techniques.

If nothing else, the old articles versus the new detail parts and techniques would graphically illustrate how far we've come.  Or at least how much things have changed.