Out Of the Box Builds

DC, I am sure you could use the plastic in the box to fill in gaps and seams. The rule only says "may fill in seams and gaps", it doesn't spell out any specific substance that HAS to be used to do so. (if you look closely at the rules, it doesn't allow "using everything in the box", if says "parts that come in the box", everyone knows that the sprues are not "parts")

I'd enter OOB, just to get more models done to take to the show. Then, the best way to actually compete is to build a nearly OOB kit, and add whatever "NOOB" weapons or add-ons that I want, that are made from plastic or simple resin shapes. (such and bombs, etc) (NOOB is "not out of the box", lol)  You enter the Not-OOB builds into the open classes.

Since the IPMS judging is "who has the least mistakes", that puts plastic models with very basic add-ons, on the table competing with Photo-etch, Resin, Vac parts. It is easier to make an error when you have 3 or more different media, especially if you have to cut plastic out of the way for the resin and etch.

So, it is sort of a "race not to get there first", with "first" being the errors being found by the judges as they make their cut. Putting almost all plastic models up against the resin and etch enhanced builds in the open categories almost seems like 'cheating', sometimes,,,,,,,,but, is completely within the rules and spirit of the contest.

So, I take a few with me,,,,,some for 1/72 jets, some for 1/72 props, then some OOB, just to have a mix. Even though most of my models are OOB or OOB+a little. Conversions I just will keep at home,,,,,,,,it is too easy to miss a ridge between some nose and fuselage, or sand some soft vac parts too deep after they are glued to plastic or resin.

Just for grins, print that "OOB page" of the rules I linked to, cut off all the parts that aren't OOB rules,,,,,,,,and make letters or numbers next to each part,,,and then write down some thoughts you have about any certain model. By going from your list back to your numbered lines, you will see both how much you can do in the pursuit of a "good model", and all the things that the rules obviously spell out that you can't do.

I did just that back in 2013, I had read so much about how the rules didn't work to build good models if they were going to be OOB. After taking those notes, and comparing my ideas, I discovered that building "a competitive OOB model" was going to IMPROVE my models, not detract from them. Taking a couple of models to a G-S-B contest will open the eyes a bunch, too. Especially if you think you build "10-point" models, and you get model score sheets from the judge that you only scored 6 out of 10 points on. That is a real reality check.

I routinely tell people at the shows when we get talking and joking around, that I am one of the best Copper, Lead or Pewter modelers in the show hall.

Rex

(a note, CAPS aren't being used to shout in this post, just for emphasis)

TarnShip

DC, don't get me wrong,,,,,,,I think we need to have the wording changed on OOB, somehow.

Right now, it is possible to build an accurate 1/72 BFC-2  OOB, with a resin cockpit, a resin conversion part, and photo-etched biplane rigging. (all of it was sold in one package)

But, at the same time we can't build an accurate Naval Hasegawa F-4 Phantom in 1/72 and OOB, because of parts that aren't included in the boxes. (Naval Phantoms had to carry missiles or bombs or pods for anything except ferry hops)

So, to enter the OOB category I can't build a "shake n bake" Hasegawa kit (no missiles at all), but, I can build a 1960's vintage biplane with resin and photo-etch parts.

I am sure that was not he intent when the category was created,,,,,,and I don't build inaccurate models, just so they'll fit a contest division.

Rex

Rex,

            I totally understand where you are coming from.  And I think that everyone should be able to build their models how they see fit.  If they want to build it “pure” i.e. no aftermarket parts, or scratch building that is how they should build it.  If on the other hand they want to go out and purchase EVERY aftermarket part that they can find, and/or scratch build any and all details that they feel is/are needed.

            Question, I get what you said in your last post about not using sprue to scratch build “missing” details, but what about the question that I had asked.  Using sprue to fill in a large gap?

TarnShip

I flat out don't believe that any IPMS judge has dinged an OOB model for having the seams puttied and the sink marks and ejector pin holes filled.

The OOB rules are very carefully spelled out for any IPMS competing modeler (and you don't have to even be an IPMS member to compete). They are spelled out beforehand, and the judges are given training. And just a side note, OOB doesn't mean "use Anything you find in the box", the "can't substitute parts" and "no major surgery" rules keep you from taking the Kit's Sprues and making your own missiles for under the wings, or for gluing sprue onto a wing to give it more chord or span, or gluing 18 carved sprue bits so that you can make a pilot.

As for paint (and aftermarket decals while we are at it),,,,,,,those have also always been covered in the IPMS OOB rules,,,,,,they are the "finish" on the model. That is why they are allowed. Aftermarket decals aren't considered to be "cheating", because you specifically are allowed to use decals or paints to put the entire finish on a model, which includes anything from a complete paint job, a combination of painting and kit decals, or painting and any decals you choose.

The category was never intended to be restrictive as to what your model looked like,,,,,it was just intended to be a "build it from a kit, only" type of category, without $147 worth of resin, etch and aftermarket underwing stores. (this has changed lately, you can now buy a kit for OOB building, and it comes with the $147 of "stuff" added right in that box)

It really is supposed to be a "you build your's, and I'll build mine, and we'll see who does it best" competition,,,,,,,,without all the constant "workarounds" that people come up with. It allows for rigging, for radio antennae, and for seatbelts, as long as they are within the OOB guidelines for adding those things.

OOB, as it was designed, was just a competition to see who could glue the best seam, who could fill it best without loosing details, who could paint without defects, and who could decal without silvering. (etc)

We could do the same exact thing with Evergreen sheets for each of the judging criteria, but, that lacks the visual appeal of having models on the tables.

Some people think we need to get rid of this category, I think it just needs to have some more wording added to it, and get it back to "just plastic" again. It could be so much fun, if people would just "open the box" "glue the model together" "putty and sand where needed" and "paint and decal it any way you want to"

2014 rules,,,,page 3 has OOB on the right,,,,,2015 rules will be slightly different, but, I don't know if OOB has any changes or not.

www.ipmsusa2014.com/2014_IPMS-USA_National_Contest_Rules.pdf

Rex

Tarnship,

            I’m only going by what the person who made the video said.  Personally I do not have any first hand experience with IPMS, or entering anything in their OOB category.

            That is good to hear.  Although I have to admit that from some of the stuff I’ve heard in the past about IPMS’ OOB builds some modelers didn’t seem to be too happy with the rules.

            That sounds like a good idea, and I do like that idea.  NOT that I have anything against anyone either scratch building new/replacement parts or purchasing whatever level of aftermarket parts that suits their fancy.

            Again, that sounds like a good thing.  As it stresses skill over purchasing all sort of aftermarket parts.

            As to whether or not the category should be gotten rid of or not, I’ll just repeat what I said a couple of years ago.  And that is that and keep in mind that this is just my opinion.  That any model contest should have enough room for all types of models, whether they’re OOB, scratch built, have aftermarket parts, or both scratch built AND aftermarket parts.  And that’s not to say that an OOB build should be judged against a scratch built model or a model with aftermarket or both.

Here's an interesting question.  A few years back I got a kit that had been reboxed as a Val U Pak (by Squadron, I think), with masks and resin cockpit and wheels, and a vac canopy.  No special instructions, just a bunch of aftermarket in the box.  It all came in the same box, so is it eligible?  Now, if mine was OOB, can anybody else say theirs is OOB using the exact same items?  Perhaps in lieu of instructions you need the box with listing of extra stuff.  

Yes, I remember coveting that Desert Storm USMC M60A1 RISE/Passive Gunze Sangyo kit. When I got it, it was the Esci M60A1 with white metal ERA and some photo etch, definitely not worth the three figures they originally sold for and the kit wasn't complete to make a Desert Storm era tank.

The Gunze multi media armor kits are the oldest ones that I recall coming across. And those were quite pricey by the standards of the years that I first saw them, I want to say early to mid 80's or so...

stikpusher

I am pretty sure that when the OOB category was created, the multi media kits that we see today did not exist. Aftermarket was far more of a cottage industry when compared to the kits, and much of the add ons added to kits were created by the model maker. What we have available to us now compared to 30 years ago is mind boggling.

Peerless Max of Japan released some multimedia kits in the 70s. The one that jumps to my mind is the 155mm M1 A1 howitzer that included a metal gun tube, metal recoil springs and vinyl tires. It's been reissued by Testors/Italeri with the metal parts replaced by plastic.

Most OOB contests require the instructions to accompany the kit so that judges unfamiliar with that particular model can use them to verify the kit is constructed OOB.

Some OOB rules I recall off hand are that you can add straps and seat belts, but you can't cut the head off of an included figure, hollow out the head from the helmet and use the helmet as stowage or an item on the vehicle.

stikpusher

. What we have available to us now compared to 30 years ago is mind boggling.

I am pretty sure that when the OOB category was created, the multi media kits that we see today did not exist. Aftermarket was far more of a cottage industry when compared to the kits, and much of the add ons added to kits were created by the model maker. What we have available to us now compared to 30 years ago is mind boggling.

DC, don't get me wrong,,,,,,,I think we need to have the wording changed on OOB, somehow.

Right now, it is possible to build an accurate 1/72 BFC-2  OOB, with a resin cockpit, a resin conversion part, and photo-etched biplane rigging. (all of it was sold in one package)

But, at the same time we can't build an accurate Naval Hasegawa F-4 Phantom in 1/72 and OOB, because of parts that aren't included in the boxes. (Naval Phantoms had to carry missiles or bombs or pods for anything except ferry hops)

So, to enter the OOB category I can't build a "shake n bake" Hasegawa kit (no missiles at all), but, I can build a 1960's vintage biplane with resin and photo-etch parts.

I am sure that was not he intent when the category was created,,,,,,and I don't build inaccurate models, just so they'll fit a contest division.

Rex

I flat out don't believe that any IPMS judge has dinged an OOB model for having the seams puttied and the sink marks and ejector pin holes filled.

The OOB rules are very carefully spelled out for any IPMS competing modeler (and you don't have to even be an IPMS member to compete). They are spelled out beforehand, and the judges are given training. And just a side note, OOB doesn't mean "use Anything you find in the box", the "can't substitute parts" and "no major surgery" rules keep you from taking the Kit's Sprues and making your own missiles for under the wings, or for gluing sprue onto a wing to give it more chord or span, or gluing 18 carved sprue bits so that you can make a pilot.

As for paint (and aftermarket decals while we are at it),,,,,,,those have also always been covered in the IPMS OOB rules,,,,,,they are the "finish" on the model. That is why they are allowed. Aftermarket decals aren't considered to be "cheating", because you specifically are allowed to use decals or paints to put the entire finish on a model, which includes anything from a complete paint job, a combination of painting and kit decals, or painting and any decals you choose.

The category was never intended to be restrictive as to what your model looked like,,,,,it was just intended to be a "build it from a kit, only" type of category, without $147 worth of resin, etch and aftermarket underwing stores. (this has changed lately, you can now buy a kit for OOB building, and it comes with the $147 of "stuff" added right in that box)

It really is supposed to be a "you build your's, and I'll build mine, and we'll see who does it best" competition,,,,,,,,without all the constant "workarounds" that people come up with. It allows for rigging, for radio antennae, and for seatbelts, as long as they are within the OOB guidelines for adding those things.

OOB, as it was designed, was just a competition to see who could glue the best seam, who could fill it best without loosing details, who could paint without defects, and who could decal without silvering. (etc)

We could do the same exact thing with Evergreen sheets for each of the judging criteria, but, that lacks the visual appeal of having models on the tables.

Some people think we need to get rid of this category, I think it just needs to have some more wording added to it, and get it back to "just plastic" again. It could be so much fun, if people would just "open the box" "glue the model together" "putty and sand where needed" and "paint and decal it any way you want to"

2014 rules,,,,page 3 has OOB on the right,,,,,2015 rules will be slightly different, but, I don't know if OOB has any changes or not.

www.ipmsusa2014.com/2014_IPMS-USA_National_Contest_Rules.pdf

Rex

Yes, all IPMS judges are not alike. Where there are humans involved, we have all of their subjective interpretations coming into play. Some guys do get creative by using say cut up instruction sheets for straps or ground up box for mud effects, etc. Technically both are part of OOB. Again, the judges take on the rules is what comes into play.

[quote user=“plasticjunkie”]

As per IPMS rules, OOB means you are not using pe, resin, scratchbuilding etc. unless those parts are included in the kit as some of the Dragon and Eduard kits. You are allowed to fill seams and correct things like mold sink/marks etc.  I believe that aftermarket decals are acceptable in this category and even paper or tape belts too.

As for kits containing glue and paint, yes I have seen them and as a matter of fact, I have one in my stash which is a Revell/Monogram F-14. The paint is junk and the glue is the tube kind which I don’t use so I tossed them out.

[/quote]

Plastic Junkie,

Thank you, for your reply.

In another thread I’d mentioned a person who has a YouTube video showing him filling in such “defects” and was saying that even though he had been assured that it was “legal” according to IPMS, that it also came with the caveat that it would also depend on the judge as to whether or not it would still be considered to be a “true” OOB build or not.

If you would go back and re-read what I had posted I had said that even though I personally haven’t seen any kit(s) that came with both glue and paint that I was sure that there were such kits out there.

Yeah, PJ nailed it on the OOB category for IPMS. That being said, there are kits that come with paint and glue, or even kits that come pre painted! These are usually geared towards newer/younger model builders, and are not too widespread. But they do exist.

As per IPMS rules, OOB means you are not using pe, resin, scratchbuilding etc. unless those parts are included in the kit as some of the Dragon and Eduard kits. You are allowed to fill seams and correct things like mold sink/marks etc.  I believe that aftermarket decals are acceptable in this category and even paper or tape belts too.

As for kits containing glue and paint, yes I have seen them and as a matter of fact, I have one in my stash which is a Revell/Monogram F-14. The paint is junk and the glue is the tube kind which I don't use so I tossed them out.