jgeratic

Don't need violence in order for there to be a crime.  Piracy is a very apt discription of what is being discussed here.    The meaning of piracy certainly orignates back to the times of bucanneers, but today the word applies to all sorts of illegitimate doings against others and it does not require physical contact between the two parties.

That is an interesting point about countries having different laws when it comes to copyright.  Does that mean one's ethics change depending on where they shop?

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

I would put forward that it is the usurpation of the word piracy. “Copyright infringement” or similar terms do not sound so dramatic. The folks who really started making such a hubbub about this originally were the entertainment industries. They chose a more dramatic name for it, said it enough times and it stuck. I’ll bet that their lobbyists were behind the wording in the laws passed by Congress. Then it becomes official.  Think of pirate radio- no theft or piracy involved. Just unlicensed radio stations broadcasting music that often could not  get past local censors of their times. The cool “outlaw” music that could be considered subversive by the government and society establishment. Yes there was a risk involved. But being a “pirate radio” station gave a dangerous romantic aura to it.

Just like other words in English have been usurped to give a more “pleasant” sound or term, or vice versa a more dramatic word, for the same condition, event, act, etc.

Do ones ethics change based upon where they shop. I suppose for some folks they can and do. “What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas” or “When in Rome, do as the Romans do”. That is human nature. Folks sample the forbidden when and where they can, if they are inclined to do so by their personal nature. Amsterdam anyone? One can purchase products and partake in various activities that are not legal elsewhere. And I’m willing to bet that a certain percentage of the tourists who do just that abide by all their local laws and societal standards when they are at home elsewhere. 

jgeratic

Not wanting to hijack an extising thread, have started this up after seeing a discussion on cheap prices found at a vendor overseas concerning 1/35 scale figures.  Not mentioning their name as I do not believe in promoting them.

For sure I, just like anybody else, would want to save money whenever possible.  The situation with these recasts though, are totally different from say, Italeri reboxing a Tamiya kit (and vice versa) for example. 

Pirated copies brings no cash to the original brand/sculpter, it neither rewards their work nor funds future work on new subjects.  Literally, you are handing your money to a criminal.  What say you?

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

Both Academy and Trumpeter began life with pirated copies of Tamiya kits. Academy was particularly bad back in the day with many kits being exact copies, but not as well fitting, as the Tamiya kit it represented. Even the decal sheets were identical, but out of focus. It wasn't until the late 1980s that they started making slight adjustments so the kit wasn't a direct copy. Even today, some modelers think that they were just licensed re-pops.

My first Trumpeter kit was the M60A3 I bought in 1999 or 2000. It was a copy of a mixture of the Tamiya and Academy tank kits. Even the instruction sheet was a copy. The instruction sheet showed placement of original kit parts that Trumpeter molded in place. The upper hull looked like it was made from a melted copy of the Tamiya kit.

Don't need violence in order for there to be a crime.  Piracy is a very apt discription of what is being discussed here.    The meaning of piracy certainly orignates back to the times of bucanneers, but today the word applies to all sorts of illegitimate doings against others and it does not require physical contact between the two parties.

That is an interesting point about countries having different laws when it comes to copyright.  Does that mean one's ethics change depending on where they shop?

regards,

Jack

GMorrison

No I wouldn't. I have been victimized in graphic design in the same way, and it is a crime.

 

Just remember that laws stop or change at borders. Borders matter. What is a crime in one place is not in others. And in the case of international situations, as most of these “pirates“ are, it requires a host government that actually stands by such laws.

Personally I think knock offs or rip offs is a better term, as true piracy usually involves uses of force, violence, and often results in the loss of life. The guy casting resin copies of whatever in China has committed no violence.

And as was said earlier, would someone who bought a knock off, have bought the higher priced original? Some of course would, but some no. Simply for the fact that it is out of their budget. So, for arguments sake and legalities aside, does the original producer suffer any loss if Po’ Boy buys a knock off because he could not afford the original, never would have bought the original, but can afford the knock off?

jgeratic

There is no original molds involved with the pirating situation, and it's the figure industry that is most vulnerable to this.  What happens is the 'pirater' will purchase a legit figure(s) and use that as a master to make  molds from which lower quality castings are made.  Quite often they will display the original boxart on their sales page, but will only send a photocopy of this along with your product in a plain box.

 

Ah, thanks. I thought the thread was about repops using original molds.

jgeratic

I might be guilty too of obtaining some 'garage kits' as I'm not that well versed with that scene.  

As for supporting a site that hosts multiple vendors (a mix of legit and knockoffs) - well at least the legit ones are getting paid for their original work, or at least I would assume they are?

regards,

Jack

 

 

Thanks Jack, interesting. Guess to me if I buy legit stuff off a site that also sells pirated merchandise it's like buying legit stuff from a store that also sells bootleg and stolen stuff- so I am in a way supporting them... 

On the other hand I have bought models OF pirates... 

Okay;

 Interesting this . Copying someones's work without Permission is not morally legit or legal . Academy ( Mentioned , I might add ) has been around for a while . What the situatioun is there would be hard to say .Any agreements , which Legally we cannot be privy to Would be unknown. If there some same thing . Maybe they have agreed to run the molds until ther are NOT useable and whilst doing so are paying a royalty .You could not know .

  Purely Pirated Stuff . Oh Yeah , it's out there in all forms of the hobby . You cannot , unless you're real observant spot the fake . Aunt May wants to impress her Nephew . She sees this box with a picture of something nephew has talked about incessantly .So she buys it at this " Cheapo " store . Half the price of the one at the hobby store .He'll be so proud of her . Get the Picture ? Pirates operate on the assumption that most folks won't know the difference . That's how they get by with it .

ugamodels

If you buy a pirated kit, but you would not have bought the real thing, is any damage done?

 

ugamodels

If you buy a pirated kit, but you would not have bought the real thing, is any damage done?

 

No damage to oneself, but that decision to support the criminal just enables them to do more pirating.

regards,

Jack

No I wouldn't. I have been victimized in graphic design in the same way, and it is a crime.

Hi,

I guess in order to answer a question like this, its probably important to ensure that everyone is talking about the same thing.

For a resin model, I can see that if someone takes an original that someone else develioped and used it to make his or her own molds to cast stuff for resale, that would seem to fit the definition of a pirated kit to me.

As far vacuformed models, I guess if someone were to take parts from an existing injection molded kit or even parts from an existing diescast model, I'm also guessing that that may likely fit the definition of a pirated kit.

And as others have noted if someone directly copies the existing parts of an existing kit to back engineer his or her own molds that can also probably be considered a pirated kit.

However, that leaves alot of other areas uncovered.  Specifically, last year I bought a 1/600 scale model of an RN WWII destroyer from a company called Mister Craft in Europe.  Leter on some forum I saw some suggestions that this kit was just a copy of an old Airfix kit.  As it turned out I had a copy of that kit also in my stash so I took a closer look.  At first examination the parts from both kits looked very similar.  But as I looked closer I could see several differences as well.  In particular, the part tress were laid out completely differently, the Airfix kit was molded with recessed portholes while on the Mistercraft model they were actually molded as "raised" dots on the hull (and their locations varied between kits), and other parts varied in size by a bit (in particular the hull depth aft varied noticeably).

As such, in the end, while it looked like a good case could be made that whoever developed the Mistercraft kit likely was very aware of the Airfiz kit, and chose to break the model into nearly the same general pieces (such as molding the lower superstructure to the main deck ), none of those pieces appeared to be identical between kits. 

As such, I'm not fully sure that I would consider this kit to be a "pirated" copy of the Airfix kit, though if the kit uses the same parts breakdown is that some form of "piracy", or is it just a case of both companies using the same approach for such a small vessel model?

Regards

PF

PS.  Here is a previous thread where I had some images of the two kits. http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/7/t/180641.aspx

If you buy a pirated kit, but you would not have bought the real thing, is any damage done?

I might be guilty too of obtaining some 'garage kits' as I'm not that well versed with that scene.  

As for supporting a site that hosts multiple vendors (a mix of legit and knockoffs) - well at least the legit ones are getting paid for their original work, or at least I would assume they are?

regards,

Jack

Generally no. 

But I did buy a recast garage kit years ago. Guess the price should have tipped me off. On the other hand the original company hadn't produced that model in years so it was the only way to obtain it. 

And if it's the distributor in the tread I think you mean Jack I did think about looking at them to see if they sell any Chinese hobby products you can't normally find in the West. Even if they're original products I would be still supporting a pirate site if I do buy anything... (sigh) 

There is no original molds involved with the pirating situation, and it's the figure industry that is most vulnerable to this.  What happens is the 'pirater' will purchase a legit figure(s) and use that as a master to make  molds from which lower quality castings are made.  Quite often they will display the original boxart on their sales page, but will only send a photocopy of this along with your product in a plain box.

Some people will rationalize that it is fine to buy these since it is lower quality - but they are missing the point.  Sadly, threads like this won't stop the situation, but I think it's important to make people aware, and it's up to the individual to do decide what is the right thing to do.

regards,

Jack

Don Stauffer

I'm not sure I understand a pirated kit.  If a major kit manufacturer uses someone else's old molds, isn't there an agreement between the two firms?  Otherwise, how does the repopping company get ahold of the molds.  I thought pirated kits were people who make RTV casts from a kit and sell resin copies.

 

 

I am surethats what Jack is reffering to, which is why he said subjects not kits. Though if i recall, didn't one mainstream company rip of some tamiya armour kits without permission. As you say Don, not sure how youcan do that, unless they can make molds useing the kit as a referance.

I'm not sure I understand a pirated kit.  If a major kit manufacturer uses someone else's old molds, isn't there an agreement between the two firms?  Otherwise, how does the repopping company get ahold of the molds.  I thought pirated kits were people who make RTV casts from a kit and sell resin copies.

I would not knowingly do it, but i imagine the price differance's can be tempting. A few years back i bought an 18inch Vinyl Darth Vader figure. I never gave it any thought when i ordered it, it was only after a got it i realised it was a poor knockoff of a Screamin kit.

I've done it. I have been real short on cash and have bought Tiwanese recasts, They are bad quality too.

jgeratic

It can be difficult to tell if something is a 'knockoff' right away, but usually a huge price drop is the main give away.  Combine that with familiarity with the brand and no mention of said brand on the product page layout, that becomes a dead give away.

Clint, that is an interesting example of something being copied and made available after the original is no longer in production.  Being open minded, I think that in a way, is not as bad since it really can't be counted as a sales loss to the original.  Still though, the 'new' seller is profiting over someone elses work.

regards,

Jack

 

I totally agree we didn't know the doll was a recast when she bought it. It even had the original company photos up and so cheap. They claim it's because they get direct from the factory that makes it so cheap. But once it came it didn't have the certificate claiming it was authentic and no production number on it either since everyone of them that are made get their own number. If you look at that sight you can get the big Lego sets for as low as $50 but they call them Bego or something like that.

It can be difficult to tell if something is a 'knockoff' right away, but usually a huge price drop is the main give away.  Combine that with familiarity with the brand and no mention of said brand on the product page layout, that becomes a dead give away.

Clint, that is an interesting example of something being copied and made available after the original is no longer in production.  Being open minded, I think that in a way, is not as bad since it really can't be counted as a sales loss to the original.  Still though, the 'new' seller is profiting over someone elses work.

regards,

Jack

Never. 

No, I would not knowingly deal with pirated merchandise. Hopefully, I'm intellegent enough to know the difference.

I completely agree! I don't deal with pirates.

Tom

I agree Jack. IMHO, handing money to someone who didn’t put forth the time and effort for research and development of that product just doesn’t sound right.  The companies like Tamiya, Airfix, etc.. need our dollars to develop more great kits and accessories.  The more we give to the “pirates”, the fewer new kits we get in the long run.