Art--Skill--Talent

Required reading before defining art, etc:

R.G. Collingwood, The Principles of Art

Collingwood gives what I think is the best definition of art. Most the fruits of our labors wouldn't be considered art proper, but don't fear - many creative and rewarding activities fall outside the definition of art. Definitions not withstanding, I'd rather spend an afternoon at a model show than at many art galleries.

I was going to make a post here, but then I read that Chris....Saltydog posted exactly what I was going to write. When you get to this post and start to read, just go back a page and read his. Then imagine that it's written here also.

Art----Skill----Talent----Creativity----and-------Luck

Art - well, I too liked to draw pictures of tank battles and ships on all my homework. I still have teachers say they still have some of my "work" from grade school. My 7th grade history teacher said to my mom that out of 35 years of teaching, he never got an illustrated essay of the Battle of Midway on a final exam until he got mine.

Skill - I can use an exacto knife without losing too much blood. And I can get at least half the paint on the model and only half on myself.

Talent - I can chew gum and sand at the same time

Creativity - What I use when explaining to judges why my F6F Hellcat has AIM6 Sidewinders under the wing.

Luck - This is what I give credit to if I finish a model.
Dumb luck - is when I win a ribbon at a contest.


Scott

I believe that this hobby is anything but mechanical. Anyone can follow instructions to assemble a kit, and have a nice, uniformely coloured representation. However, when it comes to painting, it all depends on the overall result. Some folks follow a formula. Basecoat, wash, drybrush, weather. In fact, I think most of us do. However, this 'formula' leaves so much to the imagination, that you consistently produce different models, different effects, and different results. I would not go so far as to call modelling an art form, as it is not. We are working with pre-made mediums and topics, so nothing is left to the creator (scratchbuilding and what-if vehicles are the exception) except the overall finish. I'd say that there is a fair amout of artistic and imaginative skill involved in modelling, but it is not an action that creates something out of nothing, straight from the individual's imagination. I hope I explained that well...

How many of us have ever painted something and said, that just does not look right. Im that way especialy when I am painting 1/35 figures and their faces. Sure its a piece of plastic, sure it kind of helps us in telling us where to put the paint, but it doesnt tell us how to make it look alive. We all have an ability to look at an object and transfer that to plastic. Granted most are better at it than I, but Im still in the fight, and Im still learning.

This is where practice comes into play. I dont think that Bob Ross was just able to sit down at a canvas and start painting the first time he tried it. I'll bet his first canvas does not even compare to his last. Just as in art, there are techniques that we use and perfect to achieve the effect that we want. I think that this is an art form especially when the modeler is able to convey an emotion with his or her work.

what a great topic of discussion! i think things are what you persoanlly make it out to be, and i make my modelling out to be less of an art but more of a skill that needs creativity, much like tinkering with appliances. however, when you design things like oldhooker's spares box airplane, then it becomes an art. i havent done much creating, but i love assembling and painting. i see it in the same way as tinkering.

For me it is a combination of all three, plus luck. When I get a new kit, the first thing I do is open it and in my mind start planning on how I will finish it. With a vast mechanical background, I enjoy scratchbuilding. I can not complete a kit SOB, I have to add something.

My paint jobs are not that good, so I do something to bring attention away from the paint to something else. I do not do any panel shading, as I have yet to see every panel on the real aircraft stand out the way most builders show it. I do show weathering but not to the level some people do. As for scale effect paint jobs, I have never really understood it. I know painting is my weak point, so I spend more time in other areas of detailing.

I enjoy scratchbuilding and adding special detail not included with the kit. I plan on building my 1/32 scale F-105G with the aft section removed, with the engine rolled back. I will have to detail the aft section as well as the engine bay bulkheads. I will show it with panels removed and the engine detailed. I hope that it will draw attention away from the less than perfect paint job.

I have a lot of kits completed, waiting for the final paint. A lot of times when I reach that point, I place it aside and start something else. Some of my friends see a completed model and comment on how good it looks, but I can see a flaw in the paint job. I can never be 100% satisified with the end result.

I use my skill and talent on scratchbuilding and detailing. Art and luck on painting.

I dont think there is a division of the 2 talents when it comes to what we do, but rather a mix of both. The mix may not always be even but its there. we paint with an artist sublety, build with an archetecks(sp) precision and enjoy it in a way no one else. There is a diffinet high when we do our hobby but the skills are acquired and honed. This is a balace of both.
-Jeff

I have to say after reading some of these post that I tend to agree to so parts others not. For one,we all have some machincal prowness about us or we would not be here.Two as for art that is a real talent for some and for other it is natural.Forturely for me it is natural.All four of us boys in my family(me and my three brothers were born with it)have a artist nature.It is a artistic nature that helps us blend colors to make these models come alive.
Three,it is skill to be able to rebuild lost parts and to scrach build a model.I have lost several parts in the past and had to scrach build new ones.When we detail a kit and add parts that we scrach build,we show our level of skill that we have and this takes time in which we all do.As you can see when we show our works to each other.Each and every time our builds improve,like fight'njoe and his B-17 or Swanny an his paint jobs.So yes we all have skills at this.
Four the talent is when you can bring all of this together and take things that you would normally forget as not being able to help you in modeling.Like going to wal-mart and taking something off the self,seeing some thing that will make your model more real.I would have never thought of using pastels to weather nor water colors.Nor using future to repair windsheilds/canopys but someone with talent did.For he saw something that would work.
So it takes all three elements art,skill and talent to do what we do.I have to say that I really enjoy this forum and that it has help me out alot.You'll just don't know what kind of blessing you'll have been for me.So keep up the good work and lte shine our art ,skill and talent forever.Digger

IMO assembling a kit OOB (including paint and decals) is mechanical assembly, it's what is done after that counts as artistic. The effects of weathering and wear, the "pose" of the subject/figures in the display, even the display base itself. even if you are working from a photo they only show one 2 dimensional view of the vehicle and all other views have to be done using artistic license.

Everyone has some degree of artistic talent as well as mechanical apptitude - tho they may not always be apparent.

Funny, I was just pondering this question last night asIwas bouncing between projects. I think model building is a combination of both artistic/mechanical aptitude. At times to solve a problem it requires both: Artistic/creativity to solve the issue with the materials at hand and mechanical to reproduce your solution.

Pure model assembly is shear mechanical, IMHO. To take it that next step
requires a certain amount of artistic ability for problem solving. When one reaches
the painting stage I believe it's more artistic than mechanical. It takes a certain
mechanical ability to apply color in an even coat, but it takes an "eye" to create depth and "life" to project.

I disagree with FightingJoe and Jeeves that they are not artists to some degree
"just for following instructions" - we all do. what I think that they are missing is
what they do with it afterwords it terms of painting, decalling, displays ad nauseum - stuff that is not called out in the directions.

I do consider myself an artist - in the 3D computer world anyways, somehow
I just can't make a true transition between modelling and modelling/rendering on the computer. Like music city, give me a pencil and "T" square or a CAD/ 3d Package I can do almost anything - but I still need to work on my techniques for model building and display

QUOTE: Originally posted by KJ200 How many times have you seen extremely accurate builds, which lack any depth of emotion? I think that it is the ability to convey that emotion in a model that is the 'Art', and that that 'Art' is not solely dependent upon scratchbuilding, or painting, but a whole host of factors, some of which are almost intangible. The Impressionists works were not decried for a lack of realism, but praised for an abundance of emotional depth, and despite what the rivet counters may cry, I rate an emotive model far above a purely accurate model. Heresy I know, but what the hell!!! Karl

absolutely brilliant Karl..........if you ever run for office, you got my vote !!!!!!!!!!

How many times have you seen extremely accurate builds, which lack any depth of emotion?

I think that it is the ability to convey that emotion in a model that is the 'Art', and that that 'Art' is not solely dependent upon scratchbuilding, or painting, but a whole host of factors, some of which are almost intangible.

The Impressionists works were not decried for a lack of realism, but praised for an abundance of emotional depth, and despite what the rivet counters may cry, I rate an emotive model far above a purely accurate model.

Heresy I know, but what the hell!!!

Karl

QUOTE: Originally posted by djrost_2000 I think that there are varying degrees of artistry in scale modeling. If one builds a model, fills the seams and accurately paints it, then I say it is craftsmanship. Where artistry comes in is in the sophistication of the paint job (shading, highlighting, etc.) and perhaps in the making of fine detail parts. Also creativity is a factor, and a skilled diorama builder who is very creative and very deliberate in placement of subjects and scenery to create an emotional effect is certainly an artist. And you can't say that the skilled figure painter is not an artist. Dave

For me the actual act of assembling a model (cutting, trimming sanding, filing etc, etc) is a skill that I think I have developed as time goes on. I believe that this part of model building is a craft, but one that does not require much in the way of artistic talent.
Weathering or painting a model on the other hand is something that definitely uses someone’s artistic skills, the amount of materials you use, or the lightness of the shading or chipping paint all rely on you using your artistic side (limited as that is in my case )

Cool thread BTW.

Cheers
Darren

i just like to create and build stuff , painting and weathering are my fav things about modeling

I think there is a fair amount of artistic ability involved in this. Take painting for example. I don't think its a whole lot different than painting a scene on canvas. I can put paint on plastic, but to have a picture, either in a book, on a box, or in your mind then to transfer that to the kit, exactly as planned, is something completely different. And I don't think it is merely a matter of learning techniques. Certainly I will improve as I practice, but without that artistic ability, I will never be a master modeler, just as I will never be the next van Gogh. Doesn't mean that I don't enjoy what I do, just that I recognize that I have limits out there somewhere.

Depends of where you look at it I think...

Art-- I don't consider what I do--like joe says-- foloowing instructions to put together plastic pieces that I didn't create, to be art. But people who scratchbuild a whole model, like boybuddah does with his Star Trek models-- yes I would say that's art!

Skill-- Sure-- some of what I do now I do better than I did because I have done it over and over again. This experience leads to skill. The fact that Pix can freehand the camo schemes he paints-- that's skill (and talent). Or the way Swanny builds up techniques that he the shares with us.

Talent-- This is something you are born with...I am not sure I was born to be a modeler...but I sure do enjoy it. Do I see anyone here with talent-- sure I guess...but it is hard to differentiate skill from talent...unless you have known someone for their whole life. If Pix was freehanding his camo schemes since age 5, then I would say that's talent LOL The fact that I have been able to play drums so well for 15 years with no formal instruction-- I consider that talent.

Not sure if I answered anything...but I did get out my LOL

I've worked at engineering companies for over 30 years as a designer. Give me a set of drafting instruments, or more lately a computer, and I can draw anything. But, engineering is mostly black and white. Everything can be calculated and evaluated, and there are no gray areas. As such, my artistic skills are virtually nil. On the other hand, I've dabbled in photography for around 40 years, and I can see shadows and shades in photographs. I just can't put the two together and develop any artistic skills. This shows in my models because they don't have the "Life" that many people's models exhibit. They may be technically correct, but don't look "Real" in some respects.

a GREAT thread.....Gil...
sure ain't no easy responses to this one.....
imo..........what we (y'all) show in this forum is 3 dimensional art..........encompassing, learned skills......mechanics.....perception.....creativity..........&.....developing (developed) talent.
for me the presentation of the end product IS the sum total of all elements, none of which is any less in proportion than another......

i've an appreciation for the fine arts (Impressionism) & writing but, no or little talent to participate & that could very well be the impetus for modelling in that this is where my meager talents & creative interests have their outlet........

I think that there are varying degrees of artistry in scale modeling.
If one builds a model, fills the seams and accurately paints it, then I say it is craftmanship.
Where artistry comes in is in the sophistication of the paint job (shading, highlighting, etc.) and perhaps in the making of fine detail parts.
Also creativity is a factor, and a skilled diorama builder who is very creative and very deliberate in placement of subjects and scenery to create an emotional effect is certainly an artist.
And you can't say that the skilled figure painter is not an artist.

Dave

I'm not so sure you can differentiate between skill levels and the "artistic talent" -
Sure, there might be some who can assemble and/or scratchbuild very well and can't paint to save their lives - and vice versa........but I'd bet that 99% of builders have those skills develop at a fairly even pace.
The "artistic talent" really comes to fore when someone is scratchbuilding, and when they are detail painting and then final weathering.
I've seen many pics of models on this forum that are technically very good builds but are "two dimensional" - meaning they don't appear to be a "scale replica" of an existing machine, but are more of a "model" of an existing machine because of the lack of "artistic talent" that went into the final weathering effort.

Creativity is certainly a must when you've got a lousy set of instructions.

Otherwise, it's an artistic talent applied with skill. (Did I use all the words right?)

Every kit for me is a unique experience. I always try to visualize how I want it to look as a finished product in broad terms and work the mechanics of the assembly around that aspect. I think there's skill involved in building/correcting techniques, painting, finishing/weathering, etc. that has to be leavened with experimentation in order to get beyond a step-by-step process. A good example would be applying self-made zimmerit...I've never done it, but I've read about several different techniques, and when I summon enough bravery will attempt it myself but even with a solid set of instructions in front of me, it takes some subtlety/skill to get it right.

The art aspect usually introduces itself in terms of how the finished item will look and feel, both to me and to other people looking at it. The subtleties of shading, the color schemes, the presence/absence of figures, static display or a diorama, all of these are subject to interpretation at various stages along the way.

I personally view each and every kit I build, good and bad alike, as a unique representation of my skill levels and artistic expression in the chosen medium. I have some backgroun in the fine arts in that I could sketch draw some as a kid, learned piano and spent time in the high school band, and am married to a choir director. This hobby can be viewed mechanically from the perspective of assembly and following steps to get to an end-goal, but I'm the type of modeler that looks at the instruction sheet as a guide only...it's been years since I built a kit exactly in the order called for by the kit instructions.

honestly all i do is follow the instructions on the kit. i dont consider myself to have either skill or artistic ability. i cant scratchbuild like others, i cant paint like others, i dont have the ability to use my imagination like others. all i do is put glue on plastic. if it turns out to look like the subject i want then i feel good.

joe

i used to draw all of the time when i was in highschool, and people really loved grabbing my note books and junk after class and thumbing through all the scribbling. teachers often scolded me for not paying attention, but i swear, i could listen better while doodling on a pad...............it did distract from taking notes as i should've. i've always had a love for art, mostly pen and ink or charcoal, i'm not that good with color. i can even remember when my mom would drop me off at day care when i was too young for school, the only way the day care attendants could get me to stop crying was to get a piece of typing paper and a pencil, and i'd be good to go for a long while just drawing things. my facination is with facial expressions, hands, and comic book type drawings. i think this passion for art does contribute to recreating a scale rendering of a 1:1 subject, after all, most artists use 1:1 references to capture something of interest on canvas/paper/clay ect.. i would say that yes, having artistic ability does give a modeller and edge. i like to replicate weathering effects, and i think in order to do this, you need an "eye" for subtlety, control, and attention to detail. like mike, i wish i could make myself practice my artistic abilities. i've won alot of hardware with my art work, as well as a scholarship to college, so yes, i have a definate interest in fine art. to go along with artistic ability, i thing manual dexterity plays a key role in modelling, to fool with tiny parts and get them in the right location accurately is a challenge, and patience to sand, fill, and do it all over again as well. yes, while manufacture's do an excellent job moulding styrene kits, it is still up to the modeller to make it come alive, so my conclusion that the finished product is a work of art. later.

Gip,

I see it as both mechanical apptitude as well as artistic creativity.
I have good mechanical apptitude as does most of my family and I have some creative artistic ability in that I can airbrush things that I see and match the colors and shadows fairly close. I am no artist in the sense of someone like Alberto Vargas but I have some artistic creativity that may be even greater than I think it is, if I could just make myself practice it.
I think there are some who are more mechanical who also build great models, but when it comes to subtle things like shading, freehand camo, exhaust stains, or other more complex paint schemes, like Tiger Meet paint jobs freehanded, that would bring more artistic ability into play then mechanical apptitude.

Mike

As for me it gos beyond just building or putting together.I want to create a piece of art.Digger