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nazi symbols on competition entering models

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  • Member since
    November 2005
nazi symbols on competition entering models
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 3:09 AM
Hello:

I saw the other day a subnote (in a German model building magazine) to a modeling contest announcement that models which show nazi or ss-symbols will not be accepted.

Not that I object such a restriction. For me such a thing would be somehow clear because at least in Austria you may not even have stored such symbols at home.

For some reasons I would be interested in whether such restrictions also would apply in America. I mean why would one to build a model which was related to the SS?

I once saw a nice looking sailing ship in a catalogue. It got my attention and I even considerd it to buy it, but then I saw the old sailing ship was a typical slave ship were slaves had been tortured. I canceled my project plan in the following of ordering it then.

I am also in the process of building the Junkers Ju/3m. Revell has decals for three types. One of them the Junkers of 1936 who transported passengers to the olympic games 1936 in Germany . I decided not to build that version; I will use the decals from British Airways from 1948.

Regards,
Katzennahrung

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Bicester, England
Posted by KJ200 on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 3:28 AM
Katzennahrung, I realise that the Swastika is a highly emotive symbol to many people of all nationalities, and some consideration is required when displaying models which feature it.

However, we should not lose sight of the fact that our models are exactly that, models, they are not a statement of support for the regime that spawned them, regardless of what others may think.

Karl

Currently on the bench: AZ Models 1/72 Mig 17PF

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 6:27 AM
could not agree more.
such banning is stupid and unacceptable,
these symbols existed anyway so it is ACCURATE to represent them.
what happens next should we ban christmas or call it festive season, should jewish or moslems not allowed to have synagogues or mosques, should boys not flirt girls just in case it is considered abuse...? the list is endless. I can not accept that because i have a dozen german planes I am the new fuhrer or kaizer in being.
similar for my jap, soviet planes......
Such attitude applies only in regimes like N Korea, and Communist era Albania.
It is sad to see such attitudes in societies that they pride by calling themshelves democratic and open.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 6:44 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by thyamis

could not agree more.
such banning is stupid and unacceptable,
these symbols existed anyway so it is ACCURATE to represent them.
what happens next should we ban christmas or call it festive season, should jewish or moslems not allowed to have synagogues or mosques, should boys not flirt girls just in case it is considered abuse...? the list is endless. I can not accept that because i have a dozen german planes I am the new fuhrer or kaizer in being.
similar for my jap, soviet planes......
Such attitude applies only in regimes like N Korea, and Communist era Albania.
It is sad to see such attitudes in societies that they pride by calling themshelves democratic and open.


Hello:

I do not think it is that easy.

Consider: what would you think if one enters a competition with the aircrafts which led to 9/11?

Surely, in a distant future people will also model such kinds. I think it depends on the circumstances: a museum should be entiteld to display a lot of things. However, what would think if you enter an office and you see a model with SS-emblemes on the shelves? What would you think about such a person in such an office?

Regards,
Katzennahrung
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Charlotte
Posted by Daprophet on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 7:32 AM
I think the swastica affects people differently, while most of us being historians of a sort understand and can relate to the attrocities committed under the Nazis, the general American people don't relate to the symbol in the same way European people will. As I understand it, there are many European nations where the swastica is not permitted. I certainly understand why.

Dave
  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 7:34 AM
This subject has been brought up a few times in this forum and in the RC forums. Here in the US, we have been subjected to some restrictions in showing our models. When displaying at a school a few years ago, I was told to remove the Confederate Jacks off my CSS Alabama because it was against school policy to show symbols of "racial" intent.

I asked them where they keep their history books on the Civil War? They showed me and sure enough, the flages had been blanked. It amazes me here in America how instead of teaching our children the true meaning of the symbols and to use respect, we hide them and let the children draw their own conclusions.

Some places, however, may not be too appropriate. I was at a show where a Tamiya Bismark had a tissue over the bow and stern. The reason was that the show was being held in a Jewish Family Center. They repsected the fact to let the modeler enter and the modeler respected the requests of the hosts.

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Back home in Blanchard
Posted by wroper11 on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 7:54 AM
Producing a historically accurate and significant model has nothing to do with support of the regime that used such symbols. Merely a limitation on artistic freedom in the name of being politically correct.

I have been to Germany and know that you cannot display, sell or use the swastika or ss symbols. Suppression of past events will only lead to the diminishment of their historical significance.

Wade
USAF PRIME BEEF ENGINEERING READY...ANYTIME...ANYWHERE! HOORAH!</font id="blue">
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:20 AM
I think if we start to analyze our model projects by including moralistic views we may as well give up. Model making is one unique way of portraying historical events in a truly 3 dimenshional way, model making can portray the horrors of war, life & death but it can also show lifes lighter side. I for one am against any form of censorship and if a plane, tank, ship or uniform displayed a swastika in real life for historical accuracy then a model should depict that image.
It is also interesting to note that the swastika is also a hindu symbol representing good luck or fortune and is still in use to this day in many hindu communities around the world.

Regards

Dawnrazor
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Back home in Blanchard
Posted by wroper11 on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 12:44 PM
The 45th ID of Oklahoma had a swastika as it's original patch however the hooked cross was not tilted like the nazi one. The swastika has been used by native american tribes as a good luck symbol.

Wade
USAF PRIME BEEF ENGINEERING READY...ANYTIME...ANYWHERE! HOORAH!</font id="blue">
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 12:53 PM
I am all for historical accuracy in modelmaking, especially as while researching for my models invariably leads me to study the events, the people, the context of the subject of the model project. I don't make models of Nazi/Wermacht/Kreigsmarine/Luftwaffe subjects. And when I hear some 'justifications' from those that do, it makes me squirm. But I would never stand in the way of anyone else who did want to make such models. If they learn more about the hows and whys of their subject matter, whatever it is, that can only be good. Censoring people, and 'protecting' them, keeping them ignorant of the past, is the surest way of repeating the past. All totalitarian states just love to burn books. That is not so far removed from covering over illustrations of flags......

wunwinglow
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 12:59 PM
I find myself looking at this issue from several viewpoints. When I build models I'm a hobbyist; when I teach courses and read and write books and articles I'm a professional academic. In that capacity I feel professionally and ethically obligated to cover any historically important point, pleasant or otherwise, that's connected to the subject under discussion.

I once heard a parent of a high school student launch into a diatribe against her kid's English teacher because (she said) the teacher was trying to convert her kid into a war monger by requiring the class to read All Quiet on the Western Front. (The parent thereby demonstrated, among other things, that she'd never read the book.) My response (ignoring for the moment the fact that it's one of the most eloquent anti-war testaments ever written) was, "I'm a military historian, and I don't think wars are nice things. I also don't believe in wife-beating. Does that mean I should pretend it doesn't happen?"

I understand Katzennahrung's observation about the emotional associations that go along with the swastika - and I think he has a legitimate point in making a distinction between such institutions as museums, on the one hand, and recreational events on the other. Surely we can agree that the Second World War and the Holocaust - and, for that matter, 9/11 - are events that should be remembered. But there's "remembering," and then there's "glorifying."

At the hobby shop where I used to work we had a couple of customers who bought all sorts of American and British WWII aircraft and armor kits and painted them in crudely-rendered German markings. The two of them apparently spent a great deal of their time building big, strange dioramas around vehicles with German markings. Asked why, for example, they were showing off photos of a Sherman tank with black crosses and swastikas painted on it, they sort of smirked knowingly and said, "it got liberated." I was never sure how seriously I ought to take these characters. Mostly they gave me the creeps.

I'm afraid Nazism does have a certain attraction to some people today. (For several years we had a middle-aged student at our university who refused to take exams on Hitler's birthday.) I don't want to think of the hobby industry as encouraging such people - and I don't think the hobby industry intends to do so.

Such issues come up in unexpected contexts. Some years ago I was thinking about building a model of the steamboat Virginia, a lovely old vessel that used to run between Norfolk and Hampton carrying passengers who'd gotten that far on the C&O Railroad. (That's one of the many projects I've never quite gotten around to finishing.) The Virginia, like all other modes of public transportation in most states of the American South during the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, was required by state law to maintain "separate but equal facilites" for "white" and "colored" patrons. Visible quite clearly in photos of the ship are signs reading "Colored Passengers' Lounge" and "Colored Water Fountain." I showed the photos and the ship's plans (which also identified the "Colored Crew's Quarters" and "Colored Showers") to an African-American member of the model club I belonged to at the time. I said, "John, I'd like your opinion on something. If I build this model should I or should I not put those signs on it?" He thought about it for less than a second before answering, "Absolutely. I wouldn't be offended by them - and I might argue with you if you left them off."

I guess my inclination in dealing with this sort of thing is to vote with my feet. If I came to an IPMS competition and found that somebody had built a diorama depicting a Nazi Party rally in a glorifying context (I've seen that happen, as a matter of fact), or, for that matter, a diorama depicting the aftermath of 9/11, I don't think I'd be inclined to urge that the builder be arrested. I would, however, turn my back on that particular exhibit and walk away from it, without dignifying the builder by speaking to him.

All this is highly personal. Somewhere or other each individual has to decide on his or her position - on the issue itself, and on whether the government should be involved in it. It's certainly a good topic for discussion in a forum like this one. I'll be most interested in reading what other members have to say about it.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by lenroberto on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:22 PM
To all-

This is a very interesting topic. I agree with Jtilley- it is highly personal and best left to the individual. However, good judgement should be exercised about what and where you are "displaying" a model.

I have written over 40 build reviews for a few websites and on the very few German ships I have done (Bismark and a U-Boat) I DID NOT put the swastikas anywhere on these models. A few folks emailed me and asked me why I did notmake the models "accurate." I kindly replied and said, no model that I build will ever have a swastika on it. I am only 34 years old but have read extensively on WWII since I was a boy. I refuse to look at a swastika on something I built.

As it does to jtilley- it creeps me out too- the guys who ONLY BUILD German WWII armor? or the guys who build only ME-109's? I will never understand that fascination. I have never built a German aircraft and doubt I ever will. My choice...

If you have a subject that portrays a symbol like a swastika or some other historical icon- I think it is up to the modeler to exercise sensitivity and tact in whether to show it in public.

I would never want to see at any model show a WWII veteran or a Holocaust survivor look at a model sporting a Rising Sun or a swastika and experience 1 second of anguish....

Just my thoughts...

Len
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 2:24 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by lenroberto

I would never want to see at any model show a WWII veteran or a Holocaust survivor look at a model sporting a Rising Sun or a swastika and experience 1 second of anguish....



Okay, now to play devil's advocate....

Isn't this POV sort of like the victor's writing the history? What about a Japanese vetran or survivor of the internment camps here in north America experiencing anguish from seeing the USAAF symbols? In many cases, those who fight the wars are not of necessity those who support the policies that led to them. Were Nazi, or Japanese conscripts any different from American conscripts in Vietnam? In many cases disobeying the order to fight could get one imprisioned or killed.

In the end, IMO, what we do doesn't glorify war--hell as a former soldier the last thing I would ever want to see again in this world was war, I think if the soldier's profession could be retired forever, many of us who are/were in uniform would be happier than anyone. model building is about history and rememberance and stories and, yes, in some cases we salute those who are considered heros--but we should never 'glorify' the warriors. They are all killers, if by choice (as I was when I enlisted and thankfully, I never had to kill) or not. there is no glory in that.

The real villians in war are the flase leaders who take us there of their own ego or for their own glory.

"In the nuclear age, the true enemy is war itself." - Denzel Washington, Crimson Tide

Just IMO, so take it for what it's worth Smile [:)]

Sean
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Pensacola, FL
Posted by Foster7155 on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 2:48 PM
[Text deleted by author]

Robert Foster

Pensacola Modeleers

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 3:36 PM
I wonder why the military machinery of the Third Reich features so heavily in the catalogues, magazine articles, books, websites, let alone entries in modelmaking competitions? Just look at the thread titles on this very forum! My modern, humanitarian, anti-censorship 'live-and-let-live' upbringing makes me say each person should be free to choose whatever they want to model. Fascist subjects still make my skin crawl though......

wunwinglow

PS Any other Brit forum members see the BBC program on Auschwitz last night? A series worth watching, I think.
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: United Kingdom / Belgium
Posted by djmodels1999 on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 4:01 PM
I probably will not add anything new in here, but representing a Nazi war machine without some of its national markings only makes it worse.. It's like saying to ourselves, it did not exist, did not happen. Yet it did and it must be remembered. Not that humankind learn fast, mind you, if we only look at what happened fairly recently in Rwanda and, closer to home, Yugoslavia..

There is a certain fascination with the 'bad guys', always. Just look at Star Wars: there are more Star Wars models depicting the Empire than the Rebel Forces... It's got to be human, something deep into the ancient reptilian part of our brain where emotions such as property, sexual or moral dominance, and violence are 'born'. I do build Nazi war machines in scale; given the choice, I'll represent a Wermacht, a Luftwaffe or a Kriegsmarine subject rather than a SS one. I recently 'visited' a concentration camp in the Czech Republic and I do not think I'd be happy to build a SS model again, other than one that is part of a diorama and showing some Allied 'supremacy' over the fallen Nazi subject. I've said it before and will doubtless say it again, but banning svastikas will not help anything. If we ban svastikas, then let's ban Belgian roundels too. What we did in Congo was not any nicer. Let's ban Hinomarus for what Japan inflicted on the world during WWII. Let's ban the Soviet star for some attrocities commited by Soviet soldiers during WWII too! Let's ban the Stars and stripes for what a few US soldiers have done in Irak. Let's ban all models, even airliners that kill because of technical and human errors, cars for drink and drive related issues, for pollution for all the evils of the world!

I see this hobby as an incarnation of my interest and love of history. I want to represent things how they were (as close as poss in any case!), not how some books or some modeling judges want us to do it. I can not and will not force people to follow my 'way' but when it comes to it, I can not really appreciate a model that has half of it's identity hidden or sripped away.
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 4:28 PM
I reading this, I must agree with Foster 7155. The showing of such symbols in some countries is ILLEGAL. It is not up to us to judge such laws, but up to the people in those countries. That is the reason many model manufactures show that square on the box art(so they can sell in those countries). It is up to those countries to make their own laws on this subject.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 5:32 PM
Also have to agree with Foster7155, it all depends on the local laws where you build and exhibit your models.

Some countries now forbid showing of cigarette ads and some kits are now sold without those or sold as black-box Item. For me it is the same thing, and I can see competitions turn away models that have "illegal" cigarette ads on them.

Lets also not forget that building for yourself and for others is different and governed by different laws and regulations.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 6:08 PM
As a graphic designer, the best way to start deniying historical events is to blank out or dismiss the symbols for which you stand, and the best way to make them popular is to censor the image.
Does anyone remember the Sex Pistols? Sid Vicious (bass player) wore a swastika t-shirt,
it was worn to provoke anger, I remember in the 80's many people here in the uk wearing the same t-shirt......but I also remember mainstream music acts wearing t-shirts featuring the rising sun and also bandanas......All these thing are done to shock, but us as modelmakers, we are only trying to be as accurate as possible and if a model requires a swastika, rising sun, or whatever then it needs to be on that model...for histories sake and also for the reason that 'we shall never forget'! if we eradicate the graphic symbols of the worlds enemies then how do we know what our forefathers were fighting against?

Denial of history is a denial of the past...and I am shure that my grandfather who fought for what is right and died believing he was right, would like me to portray the events as historically accurate as possible...swastika included .

Regards

Dawnrazor

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: PDX, OR
Posted by Umi_Ryuzuki on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 6:58 PM
I am all for freedom of speech. And I understand why some countries might ban
Symbology from WWII. However I do see modeling such graphics as accurate depictions and records of history.
In the US, the removal of tobacco advertising struck me as very odd. Then this year, the ban on hard alcohol advertising was lifted.

I find that if people look for something offensive, they will eventually find it, no matter how innocent the item, phrase or intention.

I also found the following statement very ironic.

"Political correctness is just another form of censorship."
Nyow / =^o^= Other Models and Miniatures http://mysite.verizon.net/res1tf1s/
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:28 PM
I knew that the swastika was a banned symbol in several countries, but allow me to ask, is it a universal ban? I mean if a photo from the Nazi period were published in a history book, would the image of the swastika be excised?

Al.
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Pensacola, FL
Posted by Foster7155 on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:47 PM
[Text deleted by author]

Robert Foster

Pensacola Modeleers

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Where the coyote howl, NH
Posted by djrost_2000 on Thursday, January 13, 2005 12:42 AM
I finished a model of a U-boat a few months ago. I did not include the Kriegsmarine naval ensign (flag) on the jackstaff and the model looks fine without it. Of course it is accurate because they wouldn't have the flag raised most of the time.
But a German plane or ship with a swastica painted on would not be accurately depicted by a model without the swastica.
The Kriegsmarine was probably the least "nazified" of the German military arms. Did the painting of the swastica on the deck of the Bismark make it an evil ship? No, and most of the officers and crew of the Bismark were not evil either.
I think what really matters is who you show it to.
Of course doing a model or dio of something like an SS Totenkopf soldier in a glorious post is questionable.

Dave
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 13, 2005 1:19 AM
this subject has been going around in modeling circles for many years now.

I doubt there are a bunch of anti-semitic neo nazis running around building models to push their agenda. They are ususally involved in other activities.

If it makes you feel good to make your models without the symbols, then by all means, do it. If you think that an FW-190 or a Tiger tank without markings isn't going to offend a Jewish person every now and then, you are a moron. If you are offended by these markings, then you are an even bigger moron.

Pretending it didn't happen doesn't make it so. When we model it, we aren't celebrating it, just doing our best to capture a moment in history as accurately as possible.

Katzennahrung,
If you want to model a vessel that could have been a slave ship, then do it. Have that respect for the subject you are modeling and make it a model worthy of the heavy subject you have chosen. Just don't start buying slaves and keeping them in the backyard. Buidling a slave ship doesn't make you pro-slavery. Are the people that made Amistad white devil slave masters and racists? Of course not.


A historically accurate model of the Bismark isn't a celebration of Adolf Hitler. Don't forget about the crew and the nation of people that served in factories and died, not for Nazism, but for their country. Thousands of German soldiers and civilians served in WWII out of fear of a leader that would have them shot or hung on a meat hook for non-complience.

That symbol and it's history should remain as a constant reminder for the suffering it caused on both sides of the pond. Both axis and allied.

In my opinion, the European stance on Nazi symbols is a weak attempt at making an apology for something that they shouldn't have to apologize for.

My Grandfather was a Staff Sgt during the Normandy landings at Utah beach. I can tell you, he has no harsh feeling towards Germans and would gladly look at a model of a German tank or plane. He would probably tell you a really good story or two about an experience he had or what was inaccurate on the model.

Long rant, but this stuff frustrates me. If you have a little maniac laugh going while you place your deacls, then maybe there is a bit of a problem going on inside, but otherwise make good models. Make them the best you can.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 13, 2005 1:32 AM
Well said Hatewall.

Sean
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 13, 2005 2:37 AM
Personally, I build accurate German war machines out of respect not for the people who were fighting to further the Nazi cause, but to honor those who were fighting to defend their country. Probably a strange point of view for an American who's grandfather was a radio operator on a medium bomber in WWII (don't know which type, he didn't talk too much about his involvement in the war and he died a few years back). I could only imagine what the common German people went through during our strategic daylight bombing raids over their homeland. I know, I'm strange.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 13, 2005 3:03 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by alenam

I knew that the swastika was a banned symbol in several countries, but allow me to ask, is it a universal ban? I mean if a photo from the Nazi period were published in a history book, would the image of the swastika be excised?

Al.


Hello:

I have to add some comments otherwise I feel people get a wrong perception of Germany or my country Austria (which has a different government by the way).

I think you mean by the "swastika" the "Hakenkreuz". There is no prihibition of such kind of things in our history books. However, what you are not allowed to commit: you may not use it lets say on your bag or on your car. People are also sensitive to things like "Ehre, Treue, Vaterland" (glory,faithfulness,fatherland). You may use such words in single circumstances but not all three at once because that would be considerd as nazi-speech and is banned and will put you to court in extreme cases.

After all: in Austria we are living in a free country but our free speech is sometimes not that free speech of Americans. Surely, you may say what you want in Austria but in some situations you rather need a good laywer too which costs money.

Regards,
Siegfried Gonzi
PS: The last issue of "Tamiyas modeling magazine from Great Britian" was quite brutal. First they featured an outstanding "Bergepanzer" (the model won the gold medal). Then they discussed a so called "Schnellboat" ("fast attack" boat with a swastika symbol) and last but not least they featured a SS Totenkopf Scharfuehrer. I can somehow understand when one builds a technical device but I cannot understand why one is building a figure of a SS-Scharfuehrer.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 13, 2005 6:06 AM
Katzennahrung, maybe this will help. In the U.S. there are laws against certain things being displayed for the public to see or something’s being said in public. And there are some guidelines. If the item or thing is considered to be art or a historic representation than it gets more freedom. And if it is found to be offensive or bad than you can get fined or in some cases sued. In modeling contest rules are rules and if you want in you follow the rules, or you don’t pay and you don’t play. I have to agree with Hatewall, but that’s just me. American's are supposed to be tolerant, or at least that’s what my Government teacher would say.
BTW, A really good friend of mine, who is still in the Air Force, told me something very disturbing. While in France, not more than 6 months after 9/11, he was at a big park that was having some kind of outdoor event. He described it as a carnival type of atmosphere, were people were all dressed up in funny costumes. Well, he saw two people there dressed up as the Twin Towers. With the planes smashed into them and the whole 9 yards. And they would dance around and falling down, it took everything he had not to injure those people. All I can say is different people different POV.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 13, 2005 6:55 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Skarpotchi
BTW, A really good friend of mine, who is still in the Air Force, told me something very disturbing. While in France, not more than 6 months after 9/11, he was at a big park that was having some kind of outdoor event. He described it as a carnival type of atmosphere, were people were all dressed up in funny costumes. Well, he saw two people there dressed up as the Twin Towers. With the planes smashed into them and the whole 9 yards. And they would dance around and falling down, it took everything he had not to injure those people. All I can say is different people different POV.


It has nothing to do with model making but I may add some comments. A lot of people in Europe are rather anti-American. Not so much in a radical way and they wouldn't take force against any Americans. But a whole lot of people believe that Americans do not have any culture. Or they often do not believe me when I tell them that indeed a lot of Americans do model building; they are not solely on Earth to play games. If I enter a bar in Austria I will bet that none of them in such a bar has ever heard of Kant or Hegel or philosphers like kind of. So, we still have people in old Europe who are more interested in playing video games or drinking or,...

I can only say for myself: I am believing quite the conrary. People around me are often astound when I tell them that in America there a lot of amateur astronomers and they have some assoziations against light-pollution.

I haven't took part in German speaking newsgroup dicussions for years because how can I say: they are more bussy with all kind of strict usenet rules than any discussions at all. I personally like it much more to discuss with Americans they are in my opinion much more open in a whole lot of things.

After my PhD in physics I will apply for a grant and would like to go for some years to America if possible; I have some colleagues who took that way (one of my former colleagues went to MIT even and is now back in private industry in Austria).

Regards,
Siegfried (Katzennahrung)
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Bicester, England
Posted by KJ200 on Thursday, January 13, 2005 7:04 AM
Siegfried, ein swastika ist ein Hakenkreuz.

History is written by the victors, but it is not the victors who object to the Hakenkreuz, but the losers, and understandably in some instances the victims. The Nazis cast a stain on European history, and the swastika is a reminder of the the guilt that many older Germans still feel for what happened, regardless of whether they were involved.

Every nation has any number of skeletons in their closet, even the victors of WWII. If you deny the events of history, you leave to door open to making the same mistakes again.

Karl

Currently on the bench: AZ Models 1/72 Mig 17PF

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