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Copyrights and Insurance Woes

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  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: ...Ask the other guy, he's got me zeroed-in...
Posted by gringe88 on Saturday, March 26, 2005 10:37 PM
we need a 'fight club' of our own to stop all this
====================================== -Matt
  • Member since
    December 2004
Any way to support IMMA in this?
Posted by vfxart on Saturday, March 26, 2005 6:40 PM
Just got the latest FSM and it has a quick statement courtesy of Fred Jandt. I'm wondering if there's a way to support the efforts of the IMMA and Mike Bass et al, directly? Is there a legal fund to contribute to, etc? These decisions are going to impact, and could be used as precedent for, similar scenarios in a range of arenas.

FSM November 2004's news section and now to May 2005, page 8 if you want a bit on it, or of course refer to the links in this thread.

I can't help but think that this is going to be quite important down the road, perhaps more than we currently realize.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 11, 2005 7:24 PM
Hey Lufbery,

You're right, it is a pretty complicated issue.

I'm don't know of any cases where the government commisioned an airliner. That might be a question for someone who knows more about commercial aviation. I know that Congress bailed out airlines, but not a case where they did a manufacturer.

Legally, any arguments would depend on the specific aircraft, or, more like the time-frame. Say, for instance, a P-51 Mustang wouldn't be very protected because nobody ever really required licensing for it for years, so it has fallen into the public domain... Kind of like kleenex did.

For a newer aircraft, you couldn't make the same arguement. For that you have to rely more on the funding of the project. Not necessarily if the company who made it received govn't funds, but if they received govn't funds specifically for that project and if it was created in response to an RFP.

There are other issues like trademarked names and patents. For instance, patenting the specifics of how an aircraft functions and that's what it can't be duplicated by another manufacturer, but that doesn't cover modeling...

Anyhow, there is a ton of other stuff. I just need to sit down and type it all. I've been talking to the lawyers at work, but there are only one or two who work on intellectual property and I haven't talked to them yet... And tax lawyers sure don't seem to know much about this stuff Smile [:)]

Keep checking out the site as I'll continue updating it and if any of you guys want to post what you've researched or written, let me know.

OK, off to my IPMS meeting.

~ Garth
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Harrisburg, PA
Posted by Lufbery on Friday, February 11, 2005 1:10 PM
The thing is, Garth, I think a lot of the commercial aviation stuff is subsidized by the government as well. I know Congress has passed some bail-out legislation in the past few years for the airlines -- especially after the attacks in Sep. 2001.

But beyond that, I think that Boeing and others have received tax breaks, and/or tax incentives etc. for many, many years. The question is whether that's enough to make the argument that the design is in the public domain.

And, of course, those designs aren't in the public domain. Airbus can't get blueprints for a Boeing airliner without paying for them and asking permission to use them, regarless of how much government or private corporation money went into the design and building of a plane.

I understand the point about military planes being in the public domain because they're funded by tax dollars, but the rights to the design still belong to the company making the plane. When Lockheed sells export versions of the F-16, Lockheed gets the money. The transaction is really little different from a legal point of view than Boeing selling a 727 to United.

I think the real crux of this argument revolves around the purpose of licensing fees. As I understand the concept (and I'm no lawyer), when a company licenses a design, it is trying to control the use of that design to avoid generating competition with its own products.

So General Electric may license some of its technology to Raytheon to be used in an air to air missile (a made-up example, but it illustrates my point), so that the two companies form a partnership instead of competing with one another.

The thing is, scale models don't compete with the full-sized item. This seems like such a basic idea, that it has gone without saying for all these years. So, it would be interesting to know a few things:

1) How do model companies get the information to make their models? Is it from the manufacturers?

2) Just how much is the licensing fee? Just how much does it drive up the cost of a model?

3) What rationale is used to justify the licensing fee?

4) Just what is being licensed? The overall design?

5) What about the assertion that the real problem is liability insurance? Is the fear really that somebody will buy a Monogram F-16, choke on a missile, and sue Lockheed?

This is a complex issue, and I think we're just scratching the surface. I, for one, would like more information before writing to my elected representatives.

Frankly, I think a petition drive or letter-writing campaingn directed at Lockheed, Boeing, etc. may be pretty effective too.

Just some (jumbled) thoughts.

Regards,

-Drew

Build what you like; like what you build.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 11, 2005 11:36 AM
Hey Lufbery,

Ya know, I've been thinking a lot about that and I haven't been able to come up with a good arguement aside from I just think it stinks... Which it does. With really any commercial venture, companies have the right to license however they feel appropriate (within bounds).

With the military stuff, it's a little different because they are responding to an RFP and getting government funds to design and build the aircraft. So, essentially, they are building stuff for us and then trying to license it after it''s paid for.

If someone can make a convincing argument to cover commercial aviation, I'd be more than happy to add that. I just couldn't figure out what to say.

BTW, thanks for checking out the site and for resparking the mersh aviation stuff. If you have any other ideas let me know. I'm always up for ways to make this stuff better for us modelers.

~ Garth

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Harrisburg, PA
Posted by Lufbery on Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:28 PM
Garth,

I like the letter that you have posted on your site, but I wonder if it's not too narrowly focused on military vehicles. Doesn't the letter imply that it would be fine that Boeing's 747, for instance, should have a licensing fee?

I'm not trying to be too picky, I'm just curious as to what we, as modelers, want to accomplish.

Regards,

-Drew

QUOTE: Originally posted by garthbender

M1abramsRules,

Save yourself the trouble of writing one and download the one I posted today on http://www.saveourmodels.com.

I know that sometimes letter writing campaigns and the like go unheard, but we can't go down without a fight.

~ G

-Drew

Build what you like; like what you build.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, February 8, 2005 8:00 PM
I think writing to congressmen is a good idea, and I probably will write a letter to them, but who do you think they will listen too: A group of hobbyists who's hobby is mostly manufacutred overseas or a large company in the US paying US taxes?
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, February 7, 2005 6:01 PM
M1abramsRules,

Save yourself the trouble of writing one and download the one I posted today on http://www.saveourmodels.com.

I know that sometimes letter writing campaigns and the like go unheard, but we can't go down without a fight.

~ G
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Sunny Florida
Posted by renarts on Monday, February 7, 2005 5:58 PM
Senators and congressmen make it to their positions helped significantly by lobbyists and corporate donations from these same corporations. Do you really think they'll bite the hand that feeds them?

BOHICA baby........
Mike "Imagination is the dye that colors our lives" Marcus Aurellius A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
  • Member since
    June 2003
Posted by M1abramsRules on Monday, February 7, 2005 5:39 PM
I am going to write my senators and congresswoman tonight. (I am a US citizen, and last place of residence in the good ol' US of A was SD.......... if anyone was wondering)

I think its pretty stupid!!
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Pensacola, FL
Posted by Foster7155 on Saturday, February 5, 2005 1:36 PM
I've already sent 3 e-mails...1 to my US Representative and 2 to my state Senators.

Here's some new information from the Internet Modeler Webzine:

http://www.internetmodeler.com/2005/january/columns/editorial.php

Robert Foster

Pensacola Modeleers

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Where the coyote howl, NH
Posted by djrost_2000 on Saturday, February 5, 2005 12:58 PM
Perhaps a large petition would have some impact?

Dave
  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: Arizona
Posted by ua0124 on Thursday, February 3, 2005 7:32 PM
Perhaps it is time to contact our representives in Congress...though to be honest I do not have much faith in there ability to get things done. Its doo bad Tamiya gave in.
Ernie If I can not do something about a problem, it's not my problem; it is a fact of life...
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 31, 2005 5:29 AM
Start to think that the lawyer jokes are too kind to them.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 31, 2005 3:51 AM
I think you will find that LM will say that it is our plane regardless of the markings.

In the end LM will licence the plane and the USAF the markings, now try to build the same kit sans marking or plane. Big Smile [:D]

This is nothing new and even was part of a long dispute(15 or so years) between Hobby Japan(Bandai) and Nitto regarding the SF3D kits, as HJ ownesthe SF3D rights and Nitto the design rights.
In the end the kits were reissued under a new name.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 31, 2005 3:04 AM
here comes an interesting (I hope) thought.
Let´s say and agree that the design of the let say F-16 belongs to Lockheed Martin .
But the F-16 No 92xxxxxx belongs to the US Airforce which is not in my knowledge subsidiary of LM but is under the control of the US gov. and in effect the nation.
So if you built a nameless (no decals) F-16 it can be claimed that it belongs to LM but when you put the decals on the ownership is transferred to the nation in effect YOU.
So you can claim that you are not buliding a kit of THE F-16 but the US Airforce plane no 92xxxxx which HAPPENS to be an F-16.
So logically speaking LM and the rest of the companies can go and &%$# off......
Having said that logic and common sense is something alien to profit makers.
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Perth, Western Australia
Posted by madmike on Sunday, January 30, 2005 10:38 PM
another sacrifice at the altar of the great God profit...

When will this sort of greediness end....

cheers

Mike
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 29, 2005 9:19 PM
Anyway to make a profit for there share holders and the companiesEvil [}:)] , I wonder if any of the share holders build models , if they do then the profits that they make they will loss when they buy there models .. Taped Shut [XX]

mike
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Harrisburg, PA
Posted by Lufbery on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 3:39 PM
Hi all,

I've enjoyed reading Tom Cleaver's articles, and respect his opinions. However, some additional information would be great. This would be the perfect subject for some investigative reporting from FSM.

I know they ran an article on the subject last year. Is it time for a follow-up?

Regards,

-Drew

Build what you like; like what you build.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 1:53 PM
It's not just modelers that it's happend too.

The flightsim industry has been delt the same blow, with northrop/grumman and a few others not allowing the use of their aircraft.

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Green Bay, WI USA
Posted by echolmberg on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 12:50 PM
I wonder if the problem is with the lawyers or is it with little Johnny's parents who hire the lawyer to sue because their dumb kid decided to swallow a part WHICH the parents shouldn't have been letting him play with in the first place.

Eric

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Modeling anything with "MARINES" on the side.
Posted by AH1Wsnake on Monday, January 24, 2005 10:19 PM
My credo for these times:
"Common sense has become uncommon."

 

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and those who have met them in battle. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Where the coyote howl, NH
Posted by djrost_2000 on Sunday, January 23, 2005 2:44 PM
I wonder if big companies forcing model kit makers to get licenses can constitute extortion?SoapBox [soapbox]

Dave
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Where the coyote howl, NH
Posted by djrost_2000 on Sunday, January 23, 2005 11:49 AM
I'm worried that the kit makers will start making kits of generic-looking subject matter so the big industries can't say "that's our tank, start paying up!". So perhaps it is the end of accurate kits of a specific subject. Maybe the future of models lay in very old subjects that no one can claim legal rights to.Disapprove [V]

Dave
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Sunday, January 23, 2005 10:52 AM
I can only say two words and some won't like them "Tort Reform"
  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: USA
Posted by MusicCity on Sunday, January 23, 2005 9:44 AM
QUOTE: all part of the "victim" mentality I am afraid... people need to start taking responsibility for their actions like when I grew up... mom always said be careful when opening a tin can so you don't cut yourself... still applies today.

I'm not sure that it does still apply today. When you start seeing lists of emergency phone numbers including the number for an attorney something is just plain wrong.

QUOTE: And I think if I scalded myself with hot coffee from McD's because I had it between my legs when driving, I would probably curse my stupid move and immediately go out and buy a cup holder... never sue McD's

Yeah, but that's the difference between a "Responsible Person" and a "Moron". A ReP looks for something to stop the burning. A Moron looks for the attorney's phone number.

Funny thing about most of the instances of idiocy I've read about is that nobody tries to sue the person who is actually responsible. If little Johnny swallows some of the parts from a model airplane, nobody bothers to ask the question, "Why was little Johnny able to get into the kit in the first place? Was it because Big Johnny left it out where he could?" This nonsense will impact everything, and has been for years, but as Robert's post pointed out it is just now rearing its ugly head here.
Scott Craig -- Nashville, TN -- My Website -- My Models Page
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: SETX. USA
Posted by tho9900 on Sunday, January 23, 2005 9:20 AM
all part of the "victim" mentality I am afraid... people need to start taking responsibility for their actions like when I grew up... mom always said be careful when opening a tin can so you don't cut yourself... still applies today.

And I think if I scalded myself with hot coffee from McD's because I had it between my legs when driving, I would probably curse my stupid move and immediately go out and buy a cup holder... never sue McD's
---Tom--- O' brave new world, That has such people in it!
  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: USA
Posted by MusicCity on Sunday, January 23, 2005 9:17 AM
Sad, so very sad. It won't be long before the base price for any model will start around $50 just to pay for insurance and licensing fees.

And what's really sad is that it's only the tip of the iceburg. Given time we won't even be able to mention the name or post pictures of copyrighted items on public forums such as this without paying a licensing fee. We won't be able to buy a can of soup for under $20 because some moron cut himself opening a can so the manufacturers had to start purchasing exhorbitant product liability insurance.

A sign of the times, and one that is just plain wrong.
Scott Craig -- Nashville, TN -- My Website -- My Models Page
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: SETX. USA
Posted by tho9900 on Sunday, January 23, 2005 8:20 AM
::sigh:: well we felt it coming.. now the other shoe has dropped...
---Tom--- O' brave new world, That has such people in it!
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