idf models

This would make a fascinating discussion in social history.

The Israeli's are in a historically unusual position, and they understand (or perhaps understood) that position very well—they are completely surrounded by people who, at best, would not mind at all if the Israelis fell off the face of the planet, and, at worst, want to actively eradicate them. They also have a cultural "advantage," in that they have a long history of antipathy with nearly everyone else, at one time or another. This generates an "us or them" attitude that serves them very well in all matters related to warfare. Everyone involved in their weapons programs, from the highest to the lowest, sees their work as a matter of immediate physical survival. An Israeli machinist would sooner loose a hand than turn out a substandard part for a weapon. They also have limited resources—they must get the absolute most out of everything they have. This is also a cultural advantage—for centuries, the Jews have found themselves in circumstances of having to do more with less, because they often were not permitted to have more. Those are, I think, the fundamental reasons for their weapons prowess.

But I think you err on the second point. An army marches on its stomach, and a nation makes war the same way. Israel does not have the ecomomic strength of even the weakest western European country—a fact of which the Israelis are keenly aware. They are doing their utmost to improve that situation, and their export arms industry is an excellent example.

Again not a political satement, but I think if the US stopped paying for their military it would become substantially weaker.

"they take what others think of as outdated and make it better than ever"

That's because they're surrounded by countries whose defense forces aren't up to par. They have no need for stealth bombers when their foes are still using out of date MiG-21's and T-55's.

"i think they are on par with this country in strength or even better"

I don't know what country you are in, but they could not rival the United States by any stretch of the imagination, considering the fact that they get billions upon billions of dollars from the U.S. a year, which they spend of defense.

PZL P.62 wrote:

"i think they are on par with this country in strength or even better" I don't know what country you are in, but they could not rival the United States by any stretch of the imagination,

my statements if read properly  and not just certain words you want to see was qualified  [ it was stated on a square mileage and population basis]they are 1 of the most powerful countries in the world only based on those given guidelines. not based on words you don't want to pay attention to

Well, I must agree with the others in that Israel wouldn't be around if it wasn't for the billions in US aid that they get every year, but I know what you're trying to say. Pound for pound they're a tough little country, and quite equal to their enemies abilities, as have been proved over the years. Of course universal and compulsory military training, and a per capita military budget that dwarfs the US's has a lot to do with that.

OTOH if there was a conflict between Israel and the US, it would last about an hour, but the US would be licking quite a few wounds! My feeling is that Israel will fight to the last man, woman and child, before they accept surrender. After dealing with the pogroms of Europe and the Holocaust, I can't say as I blame them on little bit.

Bgrigg wrote:

My feeling is that Israel will fight to the last man, woman and child, before they accept surrender. After dealing with the pogroms of Europe and the Holocaust, I can't say as I blame them on little bit.

That's pretty much been proven—in 60 CE. While they didn't fight to the last man, woman, and child, it was a very tough fight at a time when the Roman treasury was at a low point (thanks to Caligula and Claudius) and there was another, serious war going on at the other end of the empire. The Roman solution was to dissolve the nation of Israel. They did not kill or enslave all of them—they were exiled. To the Roman mind, this was worse than death, or even slavery.

I have no fear for the survival of Israel, as long as they have external enemies. Historically, peace, and the lack of a sufficient external threat, has lead to internal dissention, weakening them to the point that their enemies can overwhelm them.

Triarius wrote:

Bgrigg wrote: My feeling is that Israel will fight to the last man, woman and child, before they accept surrender. After dealing with the pogroms of Europe and the Holocaust, I can't say as I blame them on little bit. That's pretty much been proven—in 60 CE. While they didn't fight to the last man, woman, and child, it was a very tough fight at a time when the Roman treasury was at a low point (thanks to Caligula and Claudius) and there was another, serious war going on at the other end of the empire. The Roman solution was to dissolve the nation of Israel. They did not kill or enslave all of them—they were exiled. To the Roman mind, this was worse than death, or even slavery. I have no fear for the survival of Israel, as long as they have external enemies. Historically, peace, and the lack of a sufficient external threat, has lead to internal dissention, weakening them to the point that their enemies can overwhelm them.

Ross

I was thinking of Masada when I wrote that line!

I agree, Israel is strongest when they have an external enemy (we all are, actually!), and I don't think either of us will need to worry about Israel for quite some time to come.

I don't pass out admiration lightly, and Israel is one of the countries that I do admire for their philosophy towards militarism and survival and their willingness to do what is necessary to insure that survival.  From the day an Israeli child is born he, or she, is instilled with values necessary for the survival of the country as a whole.  As has been stated, they use what they have and get the best out of everything for as long as possible.

This is, I think, what prompted Durr's comment about the strength of the country as a whole.  Whereas the military of the United States, as an example, is probably about 1% (or less!) of the entire population of the country, the military of Israel is 100% of the entire population.  On a per capita basis they are probably one of the strongest countries militarily simply because every citizen of the coutnry is concerned with their survival and is effectively part of their military strength.  An enemy trying to assault Israel would be faced with the certain knowledge that they are going to have to fight the entire population of the country, not just those in uniform.

I have a great deal of admiration for any country that is willing to state, "This is OUR country and these are OUR people." and truly mean it.

It is of course, hard not to get political when discussing one countries involvement with another.
Durr's points are well made and understood as intended.
Israels entire outlook can be simply summed up in two words: "Never Again."

Don

"They take what others think of as out-dated and make it even better."  Or words to that effect.

 TRUE. They are the ultimate scratchbuilders on a 1:1 scale. The Israeli military rocks. No two ways about it.

                                                                                                         -60

DURR wrote:

PZL P.62 wrote: "i think they are on par with this country in strength or even better" I don't know what country you are in, but they could not rival the United States by any stretch of the imagination, my statements if read properly  and not just certain words you want to see was qualified  [ it was stated on a square mileage and population basis]they are 1 of the most powerful countries in the world only based on those given guidelines. not based on words you don't want to pay attention to

 

You seem really loyal to Israel for some reason, because you are picking a fight over a non-issue. Israel would be nothing without the billions of dollars a year it receieves in U.S. aid. It's just something you're going to have to deal with.

Ummm, but it appears as if you are picking the fight?

Durr expressed his opinion. You replied by asking what country he is in. Tad bit belligerent, if you ask me.

Freedom of speech is perhaps something you need to deal with.

"(please no politics here)"

Rhetorical question: Why can't you separate Jews and politics?

Reb Tevye answers: Because the Hebrews have made an art form of debate.

One question + six Jews = eight opinions—cubed.

And yes, I'm laughing because I'm married to one.

Now, let's all calm down. This is not the place to debate the relative merits of the State of Israel. The courage and dedication of the members of the IDF is beyond question, and worthy of everyone's admiration—even their enemies.

But there is always another side to the coin. And this is NOT the place to debate it.

Hmmm, stentorian voice works well, Ross.

Okay, okay, I'll back off!

"Freedom of speech is perhaps something you need to deal with."

 

Yeah, freedom of speech for anyone who is pro-Israel. Simply opposing Israel is a crime. I guess Israel is above criticism?

Again you come picking a fight? Triarius made a good point, one which I was willing to go along with. You apparently did not get that point.

You are free to voice your opinion, but leave the ad hominem attacks at home. Everyone is free to voice their opinion, but not at the expense of others. This is one reason political debates are not wanted around here.

man i thought this post was a good NON political well thought out       statement i did here

but wow

DURR wrote:

man i thought this post was a good NON political well thought out       statement i did here but wow

You tried, but it was sort of like opening the door for the cat—you never know what will get dragged in…

Shame though. Interesting political discussions can be fun and insightful, but you have to tread carefully. Some stomp instead.

PZL P.62 wrote:

"Freedom of speech is perhaps something you need to deal with." Yeah, freedom of speech for anyone who is pro-Israel. Simply opposing Israel is a crime. I guess Israel is above criticism?

If I understand Durr correctly, he was expressing an opinion about the IDF and their equipment. Unfortunately, it is difficult to separate the Israeli culture from any discussion of their military, because the two are intimately intertwined. The same is true of Switzerland, although few people outside of Europe appreciate that.

Perhaps you find it difficult to understand that admiration for a nation's military, or their attitude toward their military, has little to do with their conduct as a nation. Many of us admire the German military of the Second World War, and the excellent soldierly qualities of the Germans in general—very few admire the nation of Nazi Germany. Many admire the Soviet military of the same era, and the heroism of the soldiers who served—but very few do not understand that Stalinist Russia was as bad, if not worse, than Nazi Germany.

Many of us love our respective country, our people as a whole—it's our governments (or rather the people in them) that we loathe and fear!

If you want to discuss politics, statecraft, or anything directly related to those, there are an abundance of forums where such debates are welcome. However, bear in mind that making deliberately provocative statements is more likely to garner either passion (as opposed to reason) or a label of "troll." Both, eventually, result in you being ignored.

"You are free to voice your opinion, but leave the ad hominem attacks at home."

Please quote me where I attacked someone's character as opposed to their opinion. DURR stated that the Israeli military is comparable in strength to "this country's" (I assume he means the United States), when adjusted for population size. I disagreed, because Israel is dependent upon American tax payers to subsidize their military.

I also meant my last post quite literally. It's a crime in Europe and Canada to criticize Israel. So, no, I'm not free to voice my opinion, at least not in public where people know my real name, phone number, ect.

 

 

well i did learn something here i really did not know

i did not know about it being a crime in canada or europe to say anti isreal things

for that    thanks

PZL P.62 wrote:

I also meant my last post quite literally. It's a crime in Europe and Canada to criticize Israel. So, no, I'm not free to voice my opinion, at least not in public where people know my real name, phone number, ect.

Slightly
Interesting to note, if true, that in places where the right to bear arms has been lost, the right to free expression has also been lost.

You accused him of picking a fight, when in fact it is you that has done so. You stated that he seems really loyal to Israel for some reason. You ask him what country he is from. When you attack the person and not his statements, that is an ad hominem attack.

DURR clearly stated that he was basing his comparision on a population and square mile basis, and considering that Israel has compulsory military service and a much higher per capita military budget (regardless of where they "get" the money) than the US. On that basis alone he is quite correct in his statement.

Don't forget that America is also dependent on American tax payers. However on a per capita basis the US spends far less per person than Israel does.

I live in Canada and it is NOT illegal to criticize a country, even Israel. It is, on the other hand, illegal to spread hate and dissemination about ANY race, creed, or color. In other words I can easily state that the countries politics are terrible, but I cannot specify that it's citizens should be rounded up and shot. I doubt it is in Europe also, though again try to claim the holocaust didn't happen, or that there is a Zionist conspiracy, and you deserve what you get.

Freedom of speech is an interesting concept. Anybody who actually believes they have it should try yelling "FIRE" in a theater complex, or state that they would like to shoot a politician. We all know what we can say, who we can say it about and who we can say it too.

PZL P.61, you seem to be a reasonable person. I have read some of your other posts and view them quite favorably. I just think you're off the mark here.

Ross, Ben Franklin said it best "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Canada for some reason has decided to declare war on guns (which is rather punny, but not funny), our ardent legislators will not rest until only the government has the guns. Of course the bad guys will too, as they aren't interested in following the law. Once the government and bad guys have all the guns, how do you tell them apart? I can think of only three governments where the ruling party has been able to claim awareness of who has the guns, none of them I consider good company: Nazi Germany, Communist Russia and Communist China. One reason I took both my sons to the shooting range for the first time. I don't own a gun today, but I am planning on getting one for the future, and will encourage them to do so when they are old enough to own their own legally.

Bgrigg wrote:

Ross, Ben Franklin said it best "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Canada for some reason has decided to declare war on guns (which is rather punny, but not funny), our ardent legislators will not rest until only the government has the guns. Of course the bad guys will too, as they aren't interested in following the law. Once the government and bad guys have all the guns, how do you tell them apart? I can think of only three governments where the ruling party has been able to claim awareness of who has the guns, none of them I consider good company: Nazi Germany, Communist Russia and Communist China. One reason I took both my sons to the shooting range for the first time. I don't own a gun today, but I am planning on getting one for the future, and will encourage them to do so when they are old enough to own their own legally.

That's good to hear! I sure wish the sheople would wake up.

"You ask him what country he is from. When you attack the person and not his statements, that is an ad hominem attack."

 

I know what an ad hominem is. However, I did not ask him what country he was from to be hostile. He stated that Israel's military could rival "this country's" when adjusted for population size, so I simply wanted to know what country "this country" was referring to. It is also interesting to note the correlation between loss of gun rights and the loss of other rights.

 

"PZL P.61, you seem to be a reasonable person. I have read some of your other posts and view them quite favorably. I just think you're off the mark here."

 

That's fine. No two people are going to agree on everything. However, I am glad that you understand that I came here with the sole purpose of discussing the fine hobby of modeling with other modelers, and not to cause trouble or be a "troll."

Hey I would like to add somthing here.  Everyone would have to admitt that the IDF has some very imteresting subjects to model.  Unfortunately, I don't have the money to buy the conversion kits to make any.  Have you seen what they did with the m113, WOW.  Or, the T55s that they captured 30 years ago.

Also, I like what was said about gun issues.  I am a firm believer in the Second Ammendment.  I give you one of my thoughts.  How is it that Porn can be protected by Freedom of speach but, the original INTENT of the second ammendment was simply because of the militia?  Meaning we can make movies that we wouldn't want our children to see but I can't own a gun.  Long live the red states.  And, no I do not think W is God's gift to the USA but, I don't think he is the Evil others would potray him as. 

I don't want to take away from the original thread I just had to add that.

Grizz

The IDF has done some very impressive work with their armor, and is certainly worthy of discussion. But please refrain from politics.

Thank you!
Amanda Bothe
Assistant Editor
FineScale Modeler

Amanda Bothe wrote:

The IDF has done some very impressive work with their armor, and is certainly worthy of discussion. But please refrain from politics. Thank you! Amanda Bothe Assistant Editor FineScale Modeler

Yes Ma'am!