back slapping verses face slapping...

I know what you mean. Heavy Arty was very helpful to me with a Vietnam dio I built some time ago. His advice was very clear and constuctive, I was very greateful to him as with his help, my dio became much improved. I am sorry to hear someone took offense to his comments, he certainly did'nt deserve that. It still surprises me how some folks get so defensive about their models.

To my mind, this is another good arguement for my suggestion of a new critique forum. I really would like to see it happen. 

I agree, but it is nice to hear some real feedback.  Sometimes you will post a work in progress, and then see it has 16 replies, and you get ready to read some good suggestions to help you....and you open the thread.....and its just compliments.  Its nice and I appreciate it, but It really is nice to hear something you can fix or change.  Im not saying all you can do is tell them stuff to fix, but if you have any ideas, they would be nice.  Ive noticed Ajlafleche and HeavyArty are both great at this.  Their posts are usually filled with feedback, whether its good or bad, that can help you fix something.  Ive also noticed a few times with HeavyArty, just as an example, whenever he says something thats taken wrong, some people get way too defensive. I remember one time someone was looking for the names of some modern wheeled LAV's or something, and someone posted a list of tracked LAV's.  When HeavyArty simply pointed out that these were tracked vehicles, the person seemed quite angry and acted as if he had been called stupid for not knowing, when this was the opposite of what had happened.

/forums/733949/ShowPost.aspx#733949

Here ya go, Darren! Hey, I think it's a great idea!

OK, I have posted a new thread over in suggestions and feedback asking for a critique forum. The idea being if you just want to show what you built, you can post on the model forum of your choice, be it aircraft, armor, auto's etc.....

If you want constuctive criticism then you could post in the critque forum. I think  it would be a very poplular forum and  with all the experience and knowledge on this board it could prove to be a great resource too.

Sooo........if we want it we need to let the mods know. If you like the idea, show your support here:

/forums/733949/ShowPost.aspx#733949

Sorry guys, I can't get a live link for the above address.....I don't think my browser and FSM get get on that well. 

 

 

JeffW wrote:

On the other hand, I've never heard of "mindless praise" causing anyone to put away their tools and stop modelling. I have heard and have seen "criticism" (or rather, just plain ego and/or social ineptitude which seeks to hide behind the lable of criticism) cause modellers to simply drop from the hobby, either for a while or forever. If we are going to make a mistake, I say that it is potentially less harmful to be tedious to some, rather than lose a modeller because someone else might be having a bad day, logged on the computer, and "criticized" them. If in doubt, err on the side of being polite. The new/returning modeller might not learn anything earth-shattering from an "attaboy" but you can be sure that giving one - even for a standard to mediocre result - will not prevent them from modelling again.

*applauds* Excellent post, Jeff. You hit the nail right on the head. This is the point many of us have been trying to make....to encourage modelers.

Also, permit me to reiterate that 'attaboys' are not intended to teach. The modelers here are smart people. They will learn by doing and by asking, if that is what they desire.

On the other hand, I've never heard of "mindless praise" causing anyone to put away their tools and stop modelling. I have heard and have seen "criticism" (or rather, just plain ego and/or social ineptitude which seeks to hide behind the lable of criticism) cause modellers to simply drop from the hobby, either for a while or forever.

If we are going to make a mistake, I say that it is potentially less harmful to be tedious to some, rather than lose a modeller because someone else might be having a bad day, logged on the computer, and "criticized" them. If in doubt, err on the side of being polite. The new/returning modeller might not learn anything earth-shattering from an "attaboy" but you can be sure that giving one - even for a standard to mediocre result - will not prevent them from modelling again.

I don't know that, given that people are people, there is a solution to this. More and more I think I like the idea of a critique board. Not too sure how it would work, however.

Didn't the car modellers go through something like this in the context of their meets/shows? I think that is how NNL modelling meets began. 

 -Jeff

I find mindless praise tedious in the extreme, mostly because it prevents me from saying what I really feel without coming across as "the bad guy". Besides, "That's so awesome!" never taught anyone anything.

This has been a very interesting thread, and I have enjoyed reading the opinions of others. Personally, I rarely comment on a build unless I have the kit in my stash or if I find it a very intriguing subject/technique. It's not because I'm self-centered or anything, I just feel that unless I'm bringing something constructive to the table, I don't want to spam up someone else's thread. I'm introverted in real life, so I tend not to change online.

Of course, if I could actually finish a build and get pictures up, I'd probably want my ego stroked with nothing but praise.

Just kidding, I'd rather advice to apply to future projects. If you praise a single project, you'll help a man for a day. If you reinforce and help improve a man's techniques, you'll help him model for life.

wooverstone8 wrote:

ruddratt wrote:  TANGO 1 wrote: All I ask of all of you here is don't get too serious-this is our hobby, its fun! Lets keep it that way. I couldn't agree more. The best way to keep this hobby going and growing is to encourage, not discourage. Remember why we started doing this? Ask yourself where you would be now if your earliest pieces were put through the mill. I Completely agree.   When I was very young, I was always taught to be nice and considerate to other people. I am still like that now at age 19. I'm not a phony or trying butt kiss peoples work when I leave nice comments. I am just trying to be considerate. I'm really surprise that some people took "nice" comments as an offense. It caught me off guard. I'm just here to have fun and to enjoy hobby.

 

This is why this forum is a good place to be, why I like it here and why I like the people here.

The really great thing is that we do have people here of all abilities and skill levels, some of us are clearly experts, some of us are new to the hobby and a whole load of us are in-between. We should'nt feel bad about compliments and constuctive feedback. I for one will make more of an effort to offer feedback as well as praise.

As mentioned previously, there seems to be a very fine line between constuctive criticism and what can be percieved as blunt advice, I don't have all the answers, but I do think we owe it to ourselves and fellow model builders to encourage and help others when we feel we are able to. If some folks don't like the way appreciation is shown, I don't know what to do about it, I personally don't see any harm in praise if its sincere. If someone asks for feedback they should be mature enough to take the rough with the smooth. I still think a new forum for critiques would be a good idea. Maybe if enough of us asked for it, it might happen.......

 

Waffle over.

Tango 1 breaking formation.

ruddratt wrote:

TANGO 1 wrote: All I ask of all of you here is don't get too serious-this is our hobby, its fun! Lets keep it that way. I couldn't agree more. The best way to keep this hobby going and growing is to encourage, not discourage. Remember why we started doing this? Ask yourself where you would be now if your earliest pieces were put through the mill.

I Completely agree.

 

When I was very young, I was always taught to be nice and considerate to other people. I am still like that now at age 19. I'm not a phony or trying butt kiss peoples work when I leave nice comments. I am just trying to be considerate. I'm really surprise that some people took "nice" comments as an offense. It caught me off guard. I'm just here to have fun and to enjoy hobby.  

 

TANGO 1 wrote:

All I ask of all of you here is don't get too serious-this is our hobby, its fun! Lets keep it that way.

I couldn't agree more. The best way to keep this hobby going and growing is to encourage, not discourage. Remember why we started doing this? Ask yourself where you would be now if your earliest pieces were put through the mill.

This is a very interesting topic and for me a real eye-opener. I am a solitary modeler, I live in a small village and only one of my friends is into the hobby. Everyone else I talk to about my builds is here on this forum. So whenever I post pics of a finished build, I ask for comments good and bad.

I've been here for a while now and have to say that everyone here has been kind to me and the  models I show. I have recieved criticism from time to time and it has always been polite and contructive....which is what I really appreciate.  Thats why I come here, I feel comfortable enough to share my work here in a friendly place. If you want to point out a flaw, please do so! I won't get all hot and bothered about it. I'm here to share and learn. 

I agree that sometimes we go over the top with praise and maybe I am one of the guilty ones here, but I only give honest feedback. If I think it looks great-I say so.  

The only thing I don't like is when someone tears someone else's work to shreads-there is no need for that or the attitude that goes with it. Thankfully, I have not seen that sort of thing here. Maybe we should have some knd of indicator in our posts for those of us who would like serious criticism? Like "serious criticism welcome-won't get offended" I don't know, its just an idea....

If this is topic really bothers folks, why not ask the Mods for a Critique forum? That way you know that when you post your latest build, you are asking for pointers on improving your work. I mean , honestly is there anyone here who is perfect? I am certainly not! I still ask daft questions and I am still learning...much like the rest of us I dare say.

All I ask of all of you here is don't get too serious-this is our hobby, its fun! Lets keep it that way.

Right, end of waffle. Tango1 singning off........................................................ 

JeffW wrote:

Rob Gronovius wrote: This is the one site on the web where a novice modeler has little to fear regarding harsh criticism of his or her kit. And thank goodness for it!

And I think that's the point of FSM in general. All are welcome, regardless of skill level. A lot of modelers hate FSM as a magazine because they think it's too light in its featured projects and genaral content.

It seems for net forums, modelers often belong to more than one. You come to FSM for light, pleasant postings to see what the general modeling public is doing and you'll got to your hardcore, specialty site for your down and dirty masterful projects where you can say, 'dude, you really screwed up that paintjob something awful'. 

Rob Gronovius wrote:

This is the one site on the web where a novice modeler has little to fear regarding harsh criticism of his or her kit.

And thank goodness for it!

You are correct that some modelers will build at a certain level while many younger modelers will surpass them early on. You should build for yourself and your own enjoyment and no one else.

There is nothing wrong with building a kit to whatever standard you are comfortable with and posting photos of it on the forum. If you do this though, then you are bound to get either the faint praise "great jobs" as well as the minor critiques. You can chose to ignore them or make a note of them.

It is difficult for viewers to know if you just want to post the kit for all to lavish faint praise upon or if you are looking for serious constructive criticism unless you state your desires along with the pictures. I've seen plenty of modelers in the armor forums post pictures and several days later post something along the lines of "156 views and no comments?"

I don't think anyone who does give pointers insinuates that doing it their way will make you as good as them. Some people are limited by budget, availability of materials, or have physical limitations (eyesight, all thumbs, etc.) or mental limitations (patience). Most people post pointers to help you do something better. Again, you may chose to ignore the comment, but I rarely see any harshness or malice in a critique. Critiques are just one method of increasing your knowledge base. As you point out, reading "how-to" responses are just as valid as are reading modeling books.

I personally find modeling books and magazine articles where the author takes you step-by-step through the construction phase using photographs and text to be the most valuable to me. But that's just my personal preference.

I also believe some people are pre-disposed to be better modelers than others, just like any art form. I also believe that the modeler who builds model after model will eventually increase his or her skill level just by repetition alone. Will the so-so modeler who builds hundreds of models be as good as the pre-disposed highly skilled modeler who is on his 10th kit? I don't know, maybe maybe not. It's hard to tell because it depends entirely on the individual modelers.

But getting back to the original point of this thread, I rarely see any face slapping critiques and the FSM Courtesy Police have fostered an environment of gratuitous back slapping praise on this site, regardless of the skill of the modeler. This is the one site on the web where a novice modeler has little to fear regarding harsh criticism of his or her kit.

Rob,  I take your point, and you've expressed yourself in a concice and logical fashion thus far.  IMHO though, there seems to be a vein flowing through some of the comments/criticism/advice that intimates "Do it this way and one day you'll be as good as us" Obviously there are modellers at varying standards of proficiency.  The work some of the young guys are doing absolutely blows me away. (I'm 43) I think its fair to say that some modellers may well build at the same standard forever ? Is that a bad thing ?  As long as they enjoy what they do. Personally, I've learnt heaps on the forums.  Doesnt mean I will ever build at the standard of some others, who are way beyond my abilities.  And all the stuff I've picked up came from guys posting threads like "How do I ... ?" , Not comments someone has posted about a build. Whats makes a great modeller ?  Hand/eye coordination, good eyesight, patience, imagination, an eye for detail, etc.  Some people are great artists, some will never get beyound drawing stick figures.  IMO the same goes for modelling.  There will be plenty of people that will argue that good modellers are made, not born.  I disagree.  I reckon you've got a core group of maybe 100 modellers who regularly post pics on the forum.  There are no doubt hundreds more not wanting to post for fear of the unknown.  Yes it is a tough world out there, but do we have to buy into it on the forums ? 

Wirraway wrote:

I recently saw pictures of a finished build that were b-a-d.  I was cringing while looking at them. (and I've only been back in the game for a year) I thought, "this guy is really going to cop a baking".  I sat back and waited for the avalanche, but it never came.  Gave me a nice warm, fuzzy feeling. And reinforced my estimation of the decency of the guys and gals on the forums.  As my granma used to say "if you cant say anything nice, dont say anything at all"

The problem with Grandma's way is the builder will not get any better if he thinks his sub-par or mediocre model is "super", "great" and the "best kit you've ever seen." Then he wonders why his 'pro-built' model isn't getting $50 bids on eBay. If the builder wants to get better, he will ask for and take note of some of the pointers.

Again, when most people here critque, they do it nicely, not mean spirited or harsh.

The whole issue of constructive criticism at this forum is not directed at the builder who posts his work or at the critiquer who gives a good pointer. It is the self-appointed FSM Courtesy Police who defend the modeler by attacking the critiquer that is the problem. It is their actions that have led to an environment of faint praise within the forums.

I've been watching this thread and think some of you worry too much. You can't control what others are going to say. You also can't control the pics being taken or any of that stuff. You 're right the camera does show show flaws very easily and can mask others. Bottom line call it as you see it. If you can see it others can too. You'll always have a few who are thin skined, what can you do. If you post pics then you should be prepared for comments, both good and bad. If I see a model and it is an average or uninspiring then I will just leave it alone, unless the builder is new or trying something new or what have you. This is where it does get tricky. Everyones skill level is different it is unfair to judge a members who has 5 models under his belt VS a modeler who has 150 models and won shows. You will expect him have small gaps, paint work maybe not quit right and some slopeness in areas. Now from the other guy that's just unacceptable. You can't look at both with the same way. For the less experienced find something he did well and tell him about it. Then pick out 1 or 2 bigger flaws and tell him about it. Next time he post those problems will most likely be fixed (he's gotten better) now move on to smaller errors. I would never lay down a laundry list of flaws on a newbie and pick his work apart, but I will educate him and make him a better modeler over time. 

 I do think some people do just scan the pics quicky and post a that a boy. I would rather them post something eles. If I post something to pictures I almost always try to put down what I like and sometimes what I fell need improvement. It shows I actually took the time to look at what they were showing me and forulmate an opinion on the work.

Funny thing crockett (sp) was the only one in my fw190 post that posted he saw the canopy was substandered compaired to the rest of the build. I chose photos that did not zero in on that small flaw (the close up in one pic you can see it). But I didn't even catch it when I edited them. He must have been studying them on a 52 inch screen. My spitfire had a gap under the windscreen in one pic. I post this pic just to see who would pick it out. none caught it. I actually fixed it after I saw the pics. 

For all of you who do not post to pictures because you fear that I or others will get bent out of shape. Post to mine, I don't get mad. I would rather you speak your mind. Heck if you think you can get a good joke in at my expense by all means go for it I'll laugh.  your here to enjoy the hobby now worry about who might be easily offended, they'll get over it. As a judge I usually offend people by walking in the door.   

I like what you said in your post Wirraway ! I wish i would practice what your grandma said more often myself . It easy to caught up in a moment and forget such sound advice .

SHL

I recently saw pictures of a finished build that were b-a-d.  I was cringing while looking at them. (and I've only been back in the game for a year) I thought, "this guy is really going to cop a baking".  I sat back and waited for the avalanche, but it never came.  Gave me a nice warm, fuzzy feeling. And reinforced my estimation of the decency of the guys and gals on the forums.  As my granma used to say "if you cant say anything nice, dont say anything at all"

Well... I'm one of those people that say: "awesome job" and "looks great". Am I bad person for saying that? I've only been acquainted with this hobby for a few years and consider myself a novice at building.

I'll be very honest, when I started the hobby I took the criticism as punch right between the eyes. Even though I took the criticism as an insult I still followed the criticism (good advice) and learned to improve from the feedback given to me. Now I don't mind receiving criticism at all from other modelers because it has improved my skills immensely. With all the good advice/criticism I have gain enough confidence to start scratch-building my own multiple projects (one is over-half way completed). None of it would have been possible without the constructive criticism. I'm really glad I decided to continue the hobby and this forum.

Well i agree with all of that espins !!! ( some of it sounds like me , not sayin what part though )

Comments, be they positive or negative, can be taken totally out of context or in the wrong way when we're posting in online forums.  We've seen many times things get taken the wrong way, or someone will be quick to react and then you end up with two "bandwagons" with the "you're either with us or against us" mentality.

I know there are many on these forums that have a lot of talent and continuously produce stunning work.  Many of us are intermediate or advanced beginners and even beginners for that matter.  I like to encourage and focus on the positive aspects to further encourage participation and help them feel good about what they have accomplished.  I know my first few builds that I posted I was a little nervous about posting them as I didn't think my builds were anywhere near what some of you have done.  Recieving the positive encouragement made me feel much better about posting more builds and continuing to participate in the forums, and I learned to take constructive criticism in a positive way as I really want to improve my modelling skills.  Getting that positive reinforcement also encourages asking more questions, and sharing ideas. 

Some people can take constructive criticism better than others.  Remember that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I think each of us tends to judge anothers work based on our own subjective feelings on what it should look like, and what technique we should have used, or the minor flaws or detail inaccuracies that should have been corrected.  It's a very subjective thing for us to judge another's work.  Some people go for 100% accuracy down the every nut or bolt.  Others (like myself) are big picture guys, and I look at someone's work as a whole, and can appreciate the effort and subtle things as well that make the model more than just the sum of it's parts. 

Part of the problem with giving criticism of any sort is that some people have very thin skins, and get defensive really easily.  It's hard to convey sincerity in these posts and it's hard to tell sometimes how someone really means something. 

Anyway, that's my

 

I build because I enjoy it, I post because I wish to show my work, I read any comments so that I might improve my work. If someone posts a reply to my work that just tears it apart without saying anyhting constructive or positive I will discount that person's post. When I was an art student I went through many critiques of my renderings and the only critiques that were truly helpful were the ones that pointed out what was done right and what was done wrong together. I am not going to tell someone I like their work if I do not like it, nor am I going to critique it unless they ask for it, and then with politeness. 

I should think it better to encourage someone than to discourage them. We get better at what we do by repetition and trying new techniques and then more repetition. I build because I enjoy it not to win first place at the show. 

Cheers ,

Eric  

DURR wrote:

but  bbrown  i understand what your saying  but to  me (in my mind only) i will not comment on a bad job  because i feel my lack of ability does reflect on what (again  in my mind only) i can or should cast neg comments on i hope you understand my thought here

DURR,

I absolutely understand your point...  I just don't know if I agree with it...

Several years ago, a member on this site posted pictures of a P-51D in natural metal finish.  The paint job was great as well as the decals.  But each time I opened the pictures all I could see was the large gap under the windshield.  He received several pages of praise, and all I could think was, doesn't anyone see that large gap.  When I mentioned it in a post, I cought it from both ends.  Someone even told me it was about the paint job, not some trivial comment about possible flaws.  It soon turned into a heated argument.  That is why I do not reply to most of the posts when someone only wants praise, not suggestions on how to improve their builds. 

 

  

   /

Oh absolutely. I choose not to comment on people's builds, but will help help out somebody who asks for help.