i am just wondering what you think

The Tamiya 1/48 line could, I suppose, be seen as an extension of that idea. Certainly, they're easier to build than comparable larger-scale releases.

As I suspected above, the real problem might be one of perception. If you take a look at kitbuilders' galleries online, you see a wide variety of excellently painted models that most noobies find intensely intimidating. I know because I am one. Not one of the models you see featured in such places has anything less than hundreds of hours of intense work and painstaking detailing put to it.

I'm sceptical, but I think what should, perhaps, be done is to further promote the other sort. Because there are people out there without airbrushes, MiG pigments and Friul tracks. Because there are people out there who need to be told that no, the possession of all the above is not a prerequisite for having a model to be proud of. Because when you look at the state of modelling on the Internet, it's very easy to forget about that. While pro-quality models serve as a great inspiration, to a beginner they seem like the Mona Lisa might have seemed to a troglodyte cave painter.

Agamemnon wrote:

Unless, of course, you're an entry-level hobbyist, in which case about 95% of new releases are hopelessly out of your skill level.

It's true that we have seen some very complicated releases over the last vew years. But, as always with trends, there is a counter movement. The Eduard weekend releases has been called as an example for this trend. But also the new Hobby Boss 1/72 line ande the 21st Century 1/32 line of aicraft can be seen as such. Both lines are kits derivated from prepainted and pre assembled models. Their reception in the modelling community has been good as they broading the types of models that can be purchased.

Here's my 2 cents.

 I come from the background of having friends in the toy and game industry, as well as friends who are ardent toy/game collectors and customizers.

The biggest challenge for any product is shelf space. In retail, you ARE paying by the square inch. No "Ifs, Ands, or Buts" about it. Every inch of shelf space holds a product, and as a retailer it is in your interest to pack it with the material that will move best. This applies whether you are Dave the independent Hobby Shop owner, whose wife patiently tolerates him barely breaking even every month, or Colosso-Mart, who needs to send back a pallet of unsold 1/48 scale "Obscure Mobile Field Kitchens of WWII" models to the warehouse after three months.

As far as the model makers are concerned, unless they want to run a DTC (Direct to Consumer) market on the side, there is no benefit to redundancy in their market, unless they have a model/figure/product that will fly off the shelves in any minor derivation.

I LOVE my local model shops, but I also know that they are hard pressed to stock six different types of Japanese WWII bomber, three types of MI Abrams (Cold War, Gulf 1, Gulf 2) or two different Tiger models with slightly different camouflage and accouterments.

 If they can fit all of that modeling goodness in one box, and actually move the product, rather than have an obscure incarnation gather dust on the shelf, then power to them.

Moreover, if I really need a kit, I can always special-order through my LHS if I am a regular customer, particularly if I put a few dollars down.

Moreover, I would argue that the desire for customization has been a great boon to some of the Garage kit builders who have done a great deal to create some very accurate and well crafted aftermarket kits. Truth be told, I think that aftermarket kits are an entirely substantial and valid new economy that adds value both to the original model creators and to the end consumers. You want an accurate improvised Russian machine gun and stowage in order to turn your 1/35 Panther into a piece of captured amour for a Russian 1943 Diorama? Better bet that there's someone out there who can help you to realize this vision in crisp detail for just a few dollars.

 
Just a few thoughts. 

Agamemnon wrote:

alumni72 wrote: Hopefully more manufacturers will go down that road in the near future.  I looked at the Tamiya website recently and I wondered when was the last time they came out with an honest-to-goodness NEW kit?  Cars, maybe, since there are new ones every year.  But ships, armor or aircraft?  When was the last time? Hm, the Char B1?

alumni72 wrote:

Hopefully more manufacturers will go down that road in the near future.  I looked at the Tamiya website recently and I wondered when was the last time they came out with an honest-to-goodness NEW kit?  Cars, maybe, since there are new ones every year.  But ships, armor or aircraft?  When was the last time?

Hm, the Char B1? 

some interesting views here

one thing a couple of you said was about skill levels

this is why i think edward has the best idea the same plane packaged as a weekend build, regular build , and profipack

each not only applies to diff skill levels but diff pocket books as well

and by apealing to each level of skill/pocketbook the have the potential to sell more product than a company that packs all in one

This reminds me of the house construction business.  Why build small houses for entry-lever (first-time) homeowners when you can build huge mcmansions and make more money?  Heck, there are plenty of older small houses out there already for people who can't afford a huge house.  This is the logic - to get as much money as possible for their work and investment into materials.  It seems to be the same with model manufacturers (along with many, many other businesses) - why make an entry-level kit like the old Revell 1/570 Arizona, that will sell for $15, when you can make a high-tech 1/350 USS Missouri that will sell for 5 times that much?  For any kit, as soon as you recoup your investment, the rest is profit.  It's just a case of wanting more profit, more quickly.

I like the idea of a 3-in-1 kit - it gives the modeler more say in what he is building and what the final product looks like.  One single kit with parts to make any of 2, 3, or 4 variations would save both the manufacturer and the builder money.  And a fanatic who wants to build all the ships in a single class, for example, would buy enough kits to do just that.  With 3-in-1 kits - or even a single basic kit with additional parts for variations, available at a decent price, would be even more affordable and make it easier for more fanatics to build an entire class of warship.

Hopefully more manufacturers will go down that road in the near future.  I looked at the Tamiya website recently and I wondered when was the last time they came out with an honest-to-goodness NEW kit?  Cars, maybe, since there are new ones every year.  But ships, armor or aircraft?  When was the last time?  I'm not talking reissues, either.  They have the quality - everyone knows that.  But their selection seems to me to be quite stagnant.  What would it take for them to take the bull by the horns again, like they did with their 1/350 series?  That was what - 30 years ago?

I can give my point of veiw as a model car enthusiast.

Now that I am older I find myself trying to build stock replica's of the cars. Occasionally it is nice to add a set of chrome aftermarket rims and wide tires or a hood scope, etc... to a build. But it seems most of the car kits released now are either lowriders, California Customs or some alteration of a "stock" version. I find it nice having the option of a 2-in-1 or 3-in-1 kit which hopefully includes a stock version. That gives me the option to sometimes purchase more than one kit. I'll sometimes buy two, build one stock and then customize the other one. With the little extra parts included in the kit, it makes just enough of a custom build without going out and spending substantially more money for add-on aftermarket parts.

I mean, I can purchase a 3-in1 kit for less than $12.97 at Wal*Mart. It comes with two to three options for rims, tires, engines, decals, interior, etc. If I was to go online to purchase a set of custom rims and tires, alone they would cost more than the price of the kit by the time they were sent to me.

Just my thoughts.    

Fine, I guess it's my perception of the community that's the problem, then. I don't see simple kits being built nearly enough. Everyone keeps making a huge number of their latest projects using aftermarket parts from half a dozen brands (and they're entitled to that), but far too few people post pictures of something they just bought and built one weekend.

For example, I am by far the worst tank painter I know. Why? Because nobody posts pictures of badly painted kits (and why would they, it's depressing). I've never seen anything painted worse than anything of mine, ergo, I am the worst.

What I see, and I suspect any Muggle would see, when I look at these forums, particularly when it comes to armor models, is a community of modellers with insanely high standards both in terms of selecting kits built and the actual finished articles. Every time Dragon releases a new masterpiece, someone builds one and posts pictures detailing their build, showing off all the hundreds of tiny details they did, the PE wingnuts they placed, whatever.

So, when the only interface between yourself and the greater modelling community are forums like this, it's easy to forget that there probably are hundreds of people there who fail at builds, who paint their Shermans with the wrong shade of OD, tension their Tiger tracks wrong or use brush-on acrylics. They don't post threads all that much. They certainly don't show off their builds. And so, you can't see them or detect their presence in any way, they might as well not exist. Same with kits. If nobody makes any noise about some simple, easy-to-build kit, it becomes similarly undetectable, falling under the radar, as it were.

Of course, it's nobody's fault. It's just the way things work out. I don't think you can do anything about it, either.

I think to say that "about 95% of new releases are hopelessly out of" the skill level of an entry-level modeler is probably a bit of an overstatement. Within certain genres and sub-genres, sure, many new kits are not designed for a true beginner. However, within all modeling genres, there are literally hundreds of new model kits released every year and at least half of these (if not more) would be perfectly acceptable recommendations as a first kit for a youngster or even an adult who had never built a model.

Would a DML 3-in-1 kit be a good first kit for an armor modeler? Probably not. By the same token, I certainly wouldn't recommend a 1/96 scale Revell USS Constitution or a 1/350 USS Hornet as a first model for someone interested in ships. It wouldn't make sense. You certainly wouldn't ask an "entry-level" woodworker to produce a completely built-in home entertainment center or an "entry-level" electrician to completely wire an office building. 

Hobby shop shelves (and online stores) are littered with thousands and thousands of model kits which would make perfectly appropriate entry-level models. This has been true for a long, long time. After a modeler gets three or four of these "easier" kits under their belt, they can move up to the next level and try something a bit more challenging. This is exactly what I did just 5 years ago when I started modeling at the "entry-level". When I speak of "choices", I mean that "intermediate" and "advanced" modelers are now getting nearly as many choices as "entry-level" modelers have had all along.

Foster7155 wrote:

I, for one, think this is one outstanding time to be in this hobby with more choices available than ever before.

Unless, of course, you're an entry-level hobbyist, in which case about 95% of new releases are hopelessly out of your skill level. 

I have that Hasegawa Spitfire IX..... I noticed the extra parts. Took about 2 minutes with Google to figure out I had an VIII and a IX.

It'd be nice if they just sold it for what it was- a very flexible kit.

I don't know much about armor modeling, but I've seen the same sort of thing in other phases of the hobby. I have several biases, one of which is the fact that I spent several years working in a hobby shop.

I agree that this is a great time to be a scale modeler; the range of high-quality kits, aftermarket parts, etc. has never been greater. On the other hand, we're currently witnessing a phenomenon that, I think, we all agree is pretty sad: the death, or near-death, of the local hobby shop.

There are many reasons why the local hobby shop is becoming extinct. One of them (not the most important, I admit) is the fact that it's physically and financially impossible for one local shop to stock all the wonderful things that the manufacturers are producing. It seems to me that the approach taken by Dragon with its "3-in-one" kits, or perhaps a variation on that theme, would be of big benefit to the hobby shops.

An example with which I'm more familiar: the 1/72 Spitfire kits from Hasegawa. The Spitfire Mk. VIII kit was released first, as I recall. A few months later came the Spitfire IXc. The latter kit contains every single part that's in the Mk. VIII kit; it's just as easy to build a Mk. VIII from either of them. The only differences between the two kits are in the instructions and on the decal sheet. The difference between the decals amounts to less than one square inch of paper. But if a customer walks into the hobby shop wanting a Spitfire VIII, and the shop only has the IX on the shelf, the shop loses a sale.


The same thing goes for the Hasegawa 1/48 Mitsubishi Zero line. The Type 11 and Type 21 kits contain absolutely identical parts. (Each kit includes two canopies, a tailwheel, a blanking-off plate to cover the tailwheel well on a land-based aircraft, and instructions to fill the grooves representing the trim tabs on the ailerons.) The only actual differences are a few different colors for the fuselage stripes on the decal sheet. But if a customer watches the movie "Pearl Harbor" on DVD, strolls into the hobby shop, asks for a "Pearl Harbor-type Zero," and finds only the Type 11 on the shelf, the store loses a sale. The customer then goes home and either (a) decides scale modeling isn't worth investigating after all, or (b) fires up his computer and orders a Type 21 Zero from a mail-order house. In either case, the chances of his ever setting foot in the hobby shop again are slim.

Hasegawa seems especially fond of flooding the market with duplicate (or near-duplicate) kits with different markings in different boxes, but other companies do similar things all the time.

What I'd like to see is a box labeled: "A6M Zero. Can be built as any of six variants." Or "Sherman Tank. Can be built as any of six variants, with either HVSS or VVSS suspension, and with either 75 mm or 76 mm gun." Or "Iowa-class battleship. Can be built as either Iowa, New Jersey, Wisconsin, or Missouri, in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, or Desert Storm configuration." Sure, everybody buying such a kit would end up with some leftover parts. But styrene is cheap; the actual plastic in a kit box accounts for only a small fraction of the price. (Remember: more than half the money the consumer pays for the kit goes to markup for the retailer, the wholesaler, and the manufacturer. What's left has to cover the expense of designing the kit, making the molds, designing and printing the instructions, designing and producing the box, advertising, etc., etc.)  Contrary to what some manufacturers would like us to believe, the addition of forty or fifty small parts to the box contents doesn't increase the actual cost of the product by more than a few cents.  Many modern kits contain lots of parts that the builder is instructed to discard. 

I join everybody else in drooling over the huge variety of merchandise available to scale modelers these days. But let's give a little thought to, and have a little sympathy for, the people who make their livings by selling the stuff.

I look at the 3-in-1 kits and think they are pretty pointless. yes, the spare parts are good, but I really dont want them that bad to pay a higher price.

its not like your getting three full kits in a box, its just spares because you can only make one (I just basically told you guys what you already knew).

I like what Eduard is doing with it's wide range of packing. The Royal edition, the profipack, dual combos and weekend editions. Something for just about every taste, proficiency level and budget.

I've just been amazed since getting back into the hobby at how much choice there is- main stream makers, obscure makers, styrene, resin, all the AM stuff....

When I was building in the late 70's/early 80's, modeling for me was pretty much Monogram/Revell and Testors/Pactra..... whatever KMart had. There was a hobby shop, which had all sorts of armor stuff from exotic names like Tamiya and figures by Airfix..... but the planes were still R/M.

I love being back in it- all the stuff I used to wish I could get has popped up! And now I don't have to depend on a $5 bill from grandma!

I have to agree with Rob and Robert.  Especially about this being an outstanding time to be in the hobby.

I believe that for now, these ARE the "good old days".

DURR wrote:

do any of you think they are by doing this  a bad thing  for the modeling industry as a whole(including the consumer)

In a word: No.

In more than one word: The latest examples of "super kits" (from DML particularly) are extremely welcome from my point of view - and I too live on a very modest, fixed income. These kits offer the modeler several choices on how they wish to constuct the model, offer a modest quantity of "extras" like PE and metal barrels, and are all of exceptionally high quality compared to kits only a few years ago. The best thing is that the kits from DML are being sold for the same price (or slightly more) as some of their "basic" kits and are substantially cheaper than similar kits from other manufacturers. Sure, these kits are going to cost more than old $20.00 Revell offerings with ejector pin marks all over the place or the 1980's era $20.00 Tamiya kits littered with motorization holes, but to put it simply, "you get what you pay for." I, for one, think this is one outstanding time to be in this hobby with more choices available than ever before.

These kits are being marketed towards the expert and experienced intermediate modeler. The kit becomes a welcomed "one-stop shopping" for the modeler who has to have the latest aftermarket doo-dad on his kit.

Thankfully, they have taken a slight step backwards with the smart kits. These are designed for the modeler who does not like or have the skills necessary to work with miniscule aftermarket accessories.