painting in the winter

i must agree that not taking precautions is a really stupid thing. Any money saving urge will be ofset by the medical expenses at a later stage.
In the long run it may turn out cheaper if you move to Florida, Arizona etc all the nice sunny states.
(Athens has about 300- dry days average so i wont join you guys...)

There was an article on building a wooden paint booth a few years ago in FSM and in the late eighties there was an article with plans on building a metal paint booth in Model Railroader (check with Kalmbach on availability of the article)

For a lot of years I just closed the door to my hobby room (a converted bedroom), put on my respirator and let fly (wife didn't always care for the smell) - when we moved into a house with a basement the wife banished me there (please don't throw me into the briar patch br'er fox) - was going to build a booth but lucked out and found a used paint booth at a hobby shop for 40 bucks.

on the subject of safety, no matter what you do, there is some danger of damaging your body or even dying. Basic precautions will even the odds though - If you are going to drill or grind (even plastic) - wear googles - If you are going paint or work with chemicals - wear respirator and gloves (I even were my googles then) -if you are going to be doing any thing that generates a loud noise - wear at least earplugs.

Remember Murphy's Tenth Rule of Combat:
Any thing you do, including nothing, can get you killed.

I can agree with Eric . I also deal with the Atlanta traffic (although I did get hit head on in the spring in my own nieghborhood) , work on big construction sites and go into burning buildings for the pure enjoyment of it. I got over dreading outcomes long ago. I just figure when your numbers up it's up. I've seen to many people mangle a car and be standing next to it while one that is hardley damaged has a fatality. Of coarse Eric, with all the motorcyclists we haul up the sides of our mountains, I think that's more dangerous than all my hazrds combined!

QUOTE: Originally posted by merlin V1650 Thanks,Mike I feel tons better now! Should I be befallen by any of the aforementioned calamities, I, being of unsound mind, do hereby bequeath all my worldly plastic to you.. I have just thrown my respirator in the trash and am about to run thru my house with scissors.

You might get his stuff after all Mike!! Running with scissors, has he gone MAD???

I tend to agree with Mike on this. There are definitely risks involved with using any chemical compound but with our government trying to protect our morons from themselves and the push in our "legal system" to only lay the blame on the one with the money, things are getting out of hand. Sure if you sat around inhaling acrylic paint fumes 8 hrs a day there's a chance you could be affected by it. I also feel the risk from me dipping a can of skoal a day, driving in Atlanta traffic and riding my motorcycle in the moutains are all more risky than spraying a model once in a while without a spraybooth or a respirator. Again though, if I painted all day long 5 days a week, I'd take some precautions. Look at what all these groups told us about the ozone layer. They claimed the hole in the ozone was from the CFC's used in aeresols and from the freon leaking out of our cars a/c compressors. Well, now they were either so right that after just about 10 yrs of banning all this stuff the hole in the ozone suddenly shrank and became 2 holes also. Amazing that it undid 70 plus years of pollution in that short a time huh? They also never mentioned that 1 volcanic eruption dumps more pollutants into the upper atmosphere than all mankinds industry has since the dawn of the industrial age. And no one ever mentioned the fact that freon is heavier than air so if it leaks, it falls, it doesn't fly up to the ozone layer. And on a side note concerning freon, Atlanta news stations have begun reporting the dangerous "ground level ozone" values along with the pollen counts and stuff, so it seems to me we have increased the risk of ground level ozone poisoning by banning freon. Gotta love it. So anyway, don't get carried away with every warning you hear, definitly consider the risks, but use some common sense or you'll just worry yourself to death (like Merlin ).

Eric

Assessing risk is a difficult science. It's very formulaic, but still quite faulty based on an entire plethora of variabilities associated with each process. It's also behavior-based, which tends to add even more uncertainty into the mix. Unfortunately, we tend to make the wrong comparisons when dealing with risk. For example, the perception of many is that it is more risky to drive than it is to fly, based on the mortality rates of each. When determining risk, this perception is like comparing apples to oranges; it doesn't work. What would be more attuned to the risk assessment concept is comparing driving in New York City versus driving in Kansas City. Specific populations have to be identified and examined in light of the variables associated with that specific operation. So it is with modeling. We have to look at our hobby in terms of our own populations, and try to determine risk based on our own processes and the variabilities associated with each one, and then comparing our operations against some known standard(s). These would include ( but are certainly not limited to) OSHA, the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH), the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), and the American National Standards Institute (ANSI). There are also European and British standards as well. Our hobby can be risky, both in terms of physical hazards such as fire, and in terms of the health hazards associated with using many of the chemical products required to produce what we do. Just how risky is it? Well, there's a lot of variabiity......
That's what so good about this forum, is that we have the opportunity to examine some of our processes and the variables associated with them and determine a course of action that will tend to minimize exposures, fires, etc.
Gip Winecoff

Thanks,Mike

I feel tons better now!

Should I be befallen by any of the aforementioned calamities, I, being of unsound mind, do hereby bequeath all my worldly plastic to you..

I have just thrown my respirator in the trash and am about to run thru my house with scissors.

Whew Mike that is alot to sink in. I really wish I remembered that article. I'm almost (could be very wrong) thinking I read it in the front of FSM. I wish I could remember. The wife says I couldn't remember yesterday. True the actual number of modelers dying from model related illness is very low, but we'd hate to be that .001% now, wouldn't we?

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."-R.E.Lee

Tigerman, Merlin,
Before you put on the bunny suits hazmat gear, and respirators for modeling heres some other numbers that should cause more concern than any assumed health hazards from modeling. Not that they aren't real but comparatively speaking....

-Cars kill 250 pedestrians a year in NYC
-Coronary heart disease kills 12 million Americans a year (too many burgers, donuts and fatty foods. Cholesterol will kill you faster than freebasing a bottle of enamel paint)
-9080 people were murdered with a firearm in 2000 in the US (an alarming # compared to other countries but the odds are still stacked in my favor so no kevlar vest yet ) Sadly 137 of those were children between the ages of 10 & 14
-1115 people were stabbed to death (don't think I'll be wearing a chainmail t-shirt either)
-Hurricane Hugo killed 35 people (still a larger number of deaths than model building)
- 24,000 people committed suicide in the year 2000 (must have watched The Batchelor or assembled too many individual tank tracks)
- 30 people were seriously injured from lightning strikes in Florida last year. 10 were killed.
- There were 76 recorded shark attacks world wide. 55 of those in the US, 38 of which happened in Florida.
-8000 people died in 2002 from single vehicle rollovers (the majority were SUV's) But take heart, this was down from 1998 when 10,280 were killed the same way.

Now everyones favorite and I'm sure that some of our modelers friends enjoy. As worried as you may be about modeling and its toxic demons smoking is more dangerous than a beard and moustach in Iraq right now. What ever you may think or despite what anyone tells you about the hazards of painting, or resin dust or exposure to glues, this should scare you even more. (mind you, I could care less unless its in my house or in my shop. I've never smoked but I grew up in a household of smokers. My dad comes from a family of tobacco farmers in NC, thats your choice so I'm not making a TRUTH statement here just giving you something to compare)
Over a 5 year period (1995-1999 incl.) in the US the CDC compiled figures on the mortality associated with cigarette smoking,
38,053 people died from 2nd hand smoke
82,431 from chronic lung disease
124,813 from lung cancer
17,445 from stroke
81,976 from heart disease
30,948 from other forms of cancer

The threshold limit value (TLV) of toxic chemicals as described in OSHA regulation29CFR ss 1910.1000 compared to the toxic chemical absorbed through smoking 1 cigarette i.e. TLV/Cigarette emission
ammonia 150ppm/300ppm
carbon monoxide 100ppm/42,000ppm
formaldehyde 5ppm/30ppm
hydrogen cyanide 10ppm/1600ppm
methyl chloride 100ppm/1200ppm
hydrogen sulfide 20ppm/40ppm
acrolein (nerve cell degenerative) .5ppm/150ppm

The addictive property of smoking being nicotine is used industrialy as an insecticide.

So..... I guess if I get killed by one of the above on my way to the hobby shop can we add one more statistic to those killed by modeling?
I'm not trying to trivialize anything that anyone said becuase its all serious. But I wouldn't worry too much about the level of exposure by using a "cheapo spray booth" or the toxic build up of the chemical byproducts of the modeling industry. I suppose if you did enough of it and were using laquer based or enamel based paints it could create a fire hazard. I will defer to styrene on that one, he's the chemical guy and undoubtedly knows significantly more than I do regarding the MSDS propertied of various products, I'm just going on what I've used for years, but I could be that one lucky bast.... that makes it across the frontlines without getting shot. I'm more worried about just staying alive in Florida, driving through some of the neighborhoods I do, in an SUV, in a thunderstorm to the hobbyshop that the owner chainsmokes to get a model that I'm going to take home and spend a total of 30 minutes using an airbrush painting in my garage work area.

Tigerman, I would love to see that article just to see the body of the article and see what the toxicology was as well as any forensic pathology that may have been included. (I am truly interested in that type of thing)

Merlin, I hope this doesn't send you over the edge. If it does, can I have your stuff?
As in anything we do, there is always a level of risk. It is something we should be aware of in this hobby and practice sufficient protocol to keep ourselves and our associates and loved ones safe. There is a list of toxic chemicals in the resins, paints, glues, etc but I don't think that anyone does enough hobby modeling to substantially put themselves at serious risk. Those that do, should take steps to keep their work environment safe and themselves limited to exposure.

There was something like this that flared up in the woodworking community a while back and still jumps out of the woodpile once in a while, and that being that there was a government (prodded by some consumer advocacy as well as some well meaning safety screamin mimi's) to try and classify sawdust as a hazardous material. (air quality, respiratory hazard, etc) The result was alot of proposed legislation, stumping, philibustering and overall lobbying that kept comming down to the simple fact that people have to be responsible for themselves and any legislation would be unenforcable as well as too strict because of its classification as a hazardous material and health risk. It would have essentialy put a grinding halt to woodworking in this country and was ludicrous from the start. Now I'm sure you can use your imaginations to realize the stupidity of this concept and its miriad convolutions.

Worry more about the quality of your drinking water and affordable healthcare in this country more than what modeling will do to you.

Mike

I believe ya, tigerman..I've been hearing for a long time now of the health hazards associated with the fumes from this hobby but I've never really known just exactly what the damage is..or possibly I've heard many times over just exactly what they are but my brain's so fried now I can't remember.

Anyway, I guess I'm a bit of a hypochondriac and when I read your post I really did start feeling sick inside.

Yes Merlin it seems farfetched, but I wish I could remember where I read that story to back up my last post. I work at a newspaper and it either was a story that they ran or I'm thinking an obituary. Just not sure. I swear I did read it.

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."-R.E.Lee

I usually put my cans in warm water,before using them, but in the good ole south Louisiana, we do not really have a winter, it gets cold but it not long. Usually a good time to work on figures.

Hey tigerman

You wouldn't happen to remember what those symptoms were, would ya?
I don't feel so good.

Lucky for we get several nice warm days in the winter most years. Don't think I could live somewhere that come winter it's indoors till spring.

Your right DJ, the damage has probably been done. Not to scare you, because I have done it also, but I read this story somewhere last year where this perfectly healthy 40+ old guy suddenly developed all these terrible symptoms that stumped the doctors and subsequently died. They finally concluded, that he being a proficient model builder, combining all the unprotected airbrushing in accordance with all the glue fumes, fried his body. Pretty scary stuff. Just a reminder to be cautious in our hobby.

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."-R.E.Lee

Alas, with the turning of leaves comes the end of modelling. I wouldn't airbrush even acrylics when it's too cold to open a window. And my windows are incompatible for ducting out fumes with a proper spraybooth. In the winter months I'll be doing nothing but painting miniatures by brush with acrylics. And with a fan going.

I shudder to think of the damage I've done to myself in my younger years by airbrushing in the basement with only a dust mask.

DJ

Thanks for the advice Gip. SInce I spray mostly with acrylics and in such small amounts, I've never had problems with it. I had this set up in my modeling area for years and never had an issue with it. Also had it up against a window so the air moved outside.
Ah well, drunks, fools and Irishmen, right?

Mike

I can paint year round. I have a room set up with a paint booth vented to the outside. I have also installed a vent fan which I can turn on if needed. The room is always just the right tempature year round. I also have a respirator with replaceable fiber filters and a charcoal canaster. It is an old one but it works great.

Great advice Gip, thanks.

"it is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."-R.E.Lee

dubix88,
If you are having to leave the room, it sounds as if your respirator may not be functioning properly. In addition, if paint vapor concentrations are such that you have to vacate the room for any length of time at all, you may need some additional help ventilation-wise. Consider getting a good window fan to help dilute the vapors, or to help draw them out. Also consider the idea of a spray booth (not the one mentioned in the above posts). Lastly, ensure your respirator is operating correctly. The respirator you should have is a rubber/silicone half-mask with the organic vapor cartridges and paint prefilters. They're about $20 at most of the big hardware chains. If this is the device you have, and you can smell or taste the paint, or if breathing is slightly more difficult than normal while wearing the mask, the cartridges and prefilters need to be replaced.
Gip Winecoff

HEY,
I have a closed in porch in the front of my house and when i need to spray something, i do it out there. Also, i wear those painters masks and i can do it in the house, as long as i leave the room for about fifteen minutes with the window open. Hop this helps.

Randy

1. For the most part, acrylics are "relatively" less toxic than enamels; however, toxicity is not only based on ingredients, but on the frequency, duration, and concentrations of the paints and thinners you are using, as well as other variables, including the amount and type of ventilation, and whether you are wearing a respirator, etc. Other variables may include airbrush operating pressures, which controls the amount of paint atomized at any given time.
2. The "cheapo" idea of a cardboard box and box fan for a spray booth is just plain dangerous from a fire standpoint, and if the air is being recirculated back into the room, the entire purpose of the booth is defeated. The topic of spray booths has been explored fairly extensively in the painting and airbrushing forums. I would encourage a search in that section, and check to see if any information there is applicable to your situation. If not, come back here and ask your questions. There are a lot of folks here with good ideas on keeping your health. If you need any additional recommendations, please don't hesitate to e-mail me personally.
Gip Winecoff

Mike I like your cheapo spray booth solution. Wasn't there an article somewhat recently, maybe a year or so ago in FSM on this very topic? Maybe I ought to dig it up. Just curious, are acrylics just as unhealthy as enamels?

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."-R.E.Lee

hi renarts, thats what i try to do is quick little paint sessions, a coat here and a coat there. nothing like i do in the warmer months.thanks for the tips on the spray booth, i'll have to give that a try.

you can make a simple spray booth with a cheap box fan and some air conditioner filters.

Although it has its moments. It really isn't a worry for us. We worry more about humidity than cold. My garage has an area set up for aibrushing and you can use an impromptu spray booth using a cardboard box, a light, a fan placed at the end of the box with it pointed to pull the air out of the box and with the air conditioner filters behind it. (between the subject and the box fan) For $12 ($10 & change for the fan, less than a $1 for the filters, boxes can be had for free) you have a spray booth. When the filters get too much paint on them, throw them away and for .95 buy new ones.

Paint works best at room temp. When I llived in CT I would keep the paints in their storage box in the house and move the colors to the basement (where it was considerably colder) when I was ready for the spray session. Never sprayed long enough for it to become an issue.

Mike

yea , it seems kind of backwards dont it. when the weather is bad and you cant go outside very often , it would be the best time to work on our models, but you have to use more caution on what you do as far as painting and things like that.i have a respirater but still am stuck with the ole lady gripping about the smell. oh well.

Hi Dave. I wish I had a solution, but I don't. I have built many kits in the old days, just breathing in those delicious fumes, without a thought about it harming me. Now, I use a respirator and spray only Acrylics. They don't smell as bad, but I'm sure they are just as bad to inhale in quantity. At the pace I finish models any more, these may last me into next year.

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."-R.E.Lee

hello tigerman, i to do not have a spray booth . but i also dont do enough painting ahead of time to last me all winter, so most of the time im stuck with stinking up the basement, although i do try to spray next to the window.

Right now I have two models more or less sprayed and ready for detailing. I try to do the spraying when its warm out and I can leave the window open, since I don't have a spray booth. Paints should be stored in at least room temp. Since I will be doing brush work, painting in an enclosed room won't be a big deal this winter.

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."-R.E.Lee