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What makes one a pro?

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  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: Indiana
What makes one a pro?
Posted by hkshooter on Sunday, July 29, 2007 7:31 PM

Was just cruising ebay and noticed a model for sale. The seller was boasting about it being "professionally built" and it got me wondering. What defines a modeling professional?

Being a competition shooter, I was once told that when one gets paid for the results of what he does, that makes him a pro. Not sure I buy it because I've been paid to shoot and build models and I don't consider myself much of a pro in either case.

What say you?

 

jwb
  • Member since
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  • From: Parkton, NC
Posted by jwb on Sunday, July 29, 2007 8:24 PM

In a sports sense, as you point out, "pro" is someone who makes a living doing their sport. So I guess a "pro" in a modeling sense could go by that definition.

In a non-paying sense, I personally think a "pro" modeler is not something you declare yourself , but rather something others say of you.

Jon Bius

AgapeModels.com- Modeling with a Higher purpose

"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." ~ Jeremiah 29:11

  • Member since
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  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Sunday, July 29, 2007 8:32 PM
Professional means someone who makes their living from the specified occupation. It doesn't mean someone who occasionally makes a couple of bucks doing it. Note that professional doesn't neccesarily mean good at it! Wink [;)]

So long folks!

  • Member since
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  • From: Indiana
Posted by hkshooter on Sunday, July 29, 2007 9:10 PM
That is so true!!!Laugh [(-D]
  • Member since
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  • From: Nashotah, WI
Posted by Glamdring on Sunday, July 29, 2007 9:27 PM
A poor attitude and an over-inflated ego.  That is the general description of "pro" modeler.  My 2 cents [2c]

Robert 

"I can't get ahead no matter how hard I try, I'm gettin' really good at barely gettin' by"

  • Member since
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  • From: Rain USA, Vancouver WA
Posted by tigerman on Sunday, July 29, 2007 11:23 PM

Anyone better than I, which means there are a ton of pro-modelers out there, Clown [:o)]

I agree that one who makes a living out of it, but that doesn't make them great.

   http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/wing_nut_5o/PANZERJAGERGB.jpg

 Eric 

  • Member since
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  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Monday, July 30, 2007 7:24 AM

I disagree with the definition of one who only makes a living from model building. I would say someone who gets paid to build a model. Most professional model builders have a regular job but build kits on commission.

There are many professional model builders that are part of movie studios, special effects departments, even architectural firms. They build on a time table and to the detail necessary for filming or presentation. While these are definitely professional modelers, they are not necessarily master modelers. They could also be AMPS Gold Medalists or IPMS award winners, but not necessarily.

Many people try to equate "professionally built" with "award winning" or "master modeler". But this is not always the case.

  • Member since
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Posted by Gigatron on Monday, July 30, 2007 7:41 AM

A professional just means it's what they do for a living.  It doesn't necessarily mean that they're the best.  There's a big difference between professional and master model builders.  Most professional builders work in the film/tv prop department.  Master builders have other jobs and get contract commissions to build models for a fee because they have a reputation as being the best.

For instance, you could hire a professional roofer, it doesn't mean you're roof still won't leak next time it rains.  You could have a professional carpenter build you a simple armoir for a couple hundred bucks or you could have a master carpenter build you a custom, one of a kind, work of art for a few grand.  You'll notice there is a huge difference in the craftsmanship in fit and finish. 

Same goes for models.  You can have me build you one and you can spend the next 10 years trying to figure out what it's supposed to be, or you can commission one of the better builders here.

-Fred

 

jwb
  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Parkton, NC
Posted by jwb on Monday, July 30, 2007 8:44 AM

 Glamdring wrote:
A poor attitude and an over-inflated ego.  That is the general description of "pro" modeler.  My 2 cents [2c]

ROTFL Laugh [(-D]

Jon Bius

AgapeModels.com- Modeling with a Higher purpose

"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." ~ Jeremiah 29:11

  • Member since
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  • From: Oklahoma
Posted by chopperfan on Monday, July 30, 2007 8:50 AM

 Bgrigg wrote:
Professional means someone who makes their living from the specified occupation. It doesn't mean someone who occasionally makes a couple of bucks doing it. Note that professional doesn't neccesarily mean good at it! Wink [;)]

This is kind of related but, I think "professional" means what whoever is using the term wants it to mean. An example. When I was in high school, in California, I bowled in a junior bowling league. At the end of each league there was an awards banquet. Trophies and "pin money" was awarded. For those who don't know, "pin money" is a set amount for each game that a team wins during the league.

Fast forward to Oklahoma, 1970. I decided to finish high school and get my diploma. The wrestling coach wanted me to compete on the team as I was a little over 200 lbs. and they had no one for that weight class. The state wouldn't let me compete because I was considered a "professional". I had bowled for money. Had nothing what-so-ever to do with wrestling but! Rules is rules.

I, by no means, made near enough to support myself but they said I was a professional. 

But, I have to agree, professional does not necessarily mean good. I wasn't that good of a bowler.Laugh [(-D] 

Randie [C):-)]Agape Models Without them? The men on the ground would have to work a lot harder. You can help. Please keep 'em flying! http://www.airtanker.com/
  • Member since
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  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Monday, July 30, 2007 10:10 AM
 Gigatron wrote:

A professional just means it's what they do for a living.  It doesn't necessarily mean that they're the best.  There's a big difference between professional and master model builders.  Most professional builders work in the film/tv prop department.  Master builders have other jobs and get contract commissions to build models for a fee because they have a reputation as being the best.

For instance, you could hire a professional roofer, it doesn't mean you're roof still won't leak next time it rains.  You could have a professional carpenter build you a simple armoir for a couple hundred bucks or you could have a master carpenter build you a custom, one of a kind, work of art for a few grand.  You'll notice there is a huge difference in the craftsmanship in fit and finish. 

Same goes for models.  You can have me build you one and you can spend the next 10 years trying to figure out what it's supposed to be, or you can commission one of the better builders here.

-Fred

 

Again, the "for a living" clause has too many holes in it. If I build a model specifially for this magazine and receive a small payment, I would then be considered a professional. Would I be earning a living? Heck no, but I would now be a paid professional. That doesn't mean that my kits are any better than the rest of the modelers around, just that I got paid doing it.
  • Member since
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  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Monday, July 30, 2007 10:16 AM

But were you a good wrestler? Propeller [8-]

Sports professionals are another matter. The Olympics used to be "amateur" athletes, but no longer. It takes too much training and travel for amateurs to survive, and so they are subsidized by colleges, universities and governments, as well as private individuals, and professional athletes are permitted to play on the basketball or hockey teams. The only "true" amateurs now seem to be the Little Leagues! And, of course, they're totally supported by their parents.

Professional means a lot of different things, these days. It is a rather over-used phrase and as such has become muddled in it's definition. I'm sticking with the "true" definition of professional as found in dictionaries which means that a living must be made, as opposed to occasional commissions. For instance, let's say you hire me to build one model. I've been paid, but can hardly support my family on the commission. Does that make me a pro? No, but it makes you a fool with your money!! Whistling [:-^]

Now if you earned enough from those commissions that it was a considerable part of your income, then I would allow the definition to be stretched to cover professional.

Master-Modeler is yet another matter. There are people on this forum who certainly warrent that title. Award-winning doesn't mean you are consistantly good. I've seen people build a model they care about, and the attention they give that kit makes is award-winning, but they can't seem to apply that care and attention to each and every kit.

To me, if you have to flog your wares on EBay, rather than being search out by people, you aren't a pro, you're a merchant. 

 

So long folks!

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by Gigatron on Monday, July 30, 2007 10:42 AM
 Rob Gronovius wrote:
 Gigatron wrote:

A professional just means it's what they do for a living.  It doesn't necessarily mean that they're the best.  There's a big difference between professional and master model builders.  Most professional builders work in the film/tv prop department.  Master builders have other jobs and get contract commissions to build models for a fee because they have a reputation as being the best.

For instance, you could hire a professional roofer, it doesn't mean you're roof still won't leak next time it rains.  You could have a professional carpenter build you a simple armoir for a couple hundred bucks or you could have a master carpenter build you a custom, one of a kind, work of art for a few grand.  You'll notice there is a huge difference in the craftsmanship in fit and finish. 

Same goes for models.  You can have me build you one and you can spend the next 10 years trying to figure out what it's supposed to be, or you can commission one of the better builders here.

-Fred

 

Again, the "for a living" clause has too many holes in it. If I build a model specifially for this magazine and receive a small payment, I would then be considered a professional. Would I be earning a living? Heck no, but I would now be a paid professional. That doesn't mean that my kits are any better than the rest of the modelers around, just that I got paid doing it.

"for a living" has no holes in it.  It's what your primary job is.  So if you built a model specifically for this magazine, you wouldn't be "doing it for a living", it would be a one-time commission and you wouldn't be considered a professional.  I don't see how you can confuse "for a living" and a one time payment.  They seem to be two, fairly different, concepts to me. 

Look at all the poeple who get their models in the magazine (reader submissions) every issue.  They get money based on the size of the photo that gets published.  Now they are getting paid for having built a model for this magazine.  Are they making a living?  Most likely not.  Are they considered professionals?  Most likely not.

Suppose you are certified mechanic working at a garage.  You fix cars "for a living".  You get up, go to your job where you work on cars and in exchange, they give you a steady paycheck every week.  Now let's say you're an average joe.  You help your neighbor change a flat tire and in exchange, he gives you $20.  Now you've been paid to work on a car.  Are you doing it "for a living"?  Big difference if you ask me.

Professional model builders go their jobs at the studio where the  head of the art department tells them what they're looking for.  These guys build models in exchange for a weekly paycheck.  They are doing it "for a living".  As in, "if we stop building models, we no longer get paid".  They're not mechanics being approached by a coworker being asked to build a model for a couple bucks compensation.

-Fred

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Massachusetts
Posted by ajlafleche on Monday, July 30, 2007 12:18 PM

Pro modeller: You're selling (or trying to sell) stuff on Ebay to get paid. If you get paid for your work, you're a professional. Just because you are lousy at what you do doesn't mean you aren't a professional. If you've been around a while in the real world, you've dealt with "professionals" whose work ethic or quality is anything but professional.

Award winning: Meaningless. As a judge for the last 24 years or so, I've had to give first place awards more times than I care to remember to the least bad model in class or to a poorly built model that was the only one in class.

Museum Quality: It was completed and painted. Go to any museum that relies on volunteers and you'll see what I mean.

Basically, none of these have any real meaning and in the world of Ebay especially, it's caveat emptor.

Remember, if the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

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  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Monday, July 30, 2007 1:17 PM

OK then. Draw my example out to someone who builds 1 kit on commission for a magazine or collector a month and receives a moderate amount of money for his work (combined). It may not pay the mortgage, but it helps pay the bills and adds to his disposable income. I still think the modeler is a professional whether it is his soul source of income or he just does it on the side.

Most of the models that appear in modeling manuals and books are built by these types of professional modelers (let's call them semi-pro for arguement's sake). I see many of the same names in the various credits of these Osprey and Kalmbach modeling books. They may not be making a living, but they are definitely professionals. Additionally, some of the modelers who make patterns or masters for resin or model manufacturers are definitely professionals (semi-pro) but mainly do this as an aside.

I do agree there are true professional model makers (movie, architecture, etc.) as I stated in my first post. They are modelers who make their living constructing scale reproductions. These professional (perhaps industrial modelers is a better term?) modelers may or may not have the skills to compete in a contest.

  • Member since
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  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Monday, July 30, 2007 1:43 PM

I think one kit or review per month and a steady income could fit into the Professional category. But I'm not so sure that most of the ones on Ebay qualify. Put it another way, I know a few people who buy and sell lots of stuff on Ebay (not just kits), and they can make "some" money at it, does that make them Professional Ebayers? Big Smile [:D]

One of the "lesser" definitions of Professional is someone who is recognized by their peers as an expert. I say "lesser" since there were 13 definitions for Professional in the dictionary online, and the just mentioned was the last. So I can consider Rob to be an Expert on Kits, Gino to be an Expert on Modern Artillary, MikeV an Expert on Badger Airbrushes, etc. Looking at my post count and relative short time on the forums makes me a Professional Post Whore. Whistling [:-^]

So long folks!

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  • From: Oklahoma
Posted by chopperfan on Monday, July 30, 2007 3:01 PM
 Bgrigg wrote:

But were you a good wrestler? Propeller [8-]

As a matter of fact, Bill, in my day (many, many moons ago) I was. Big Smile [:D]

Randie [C):-)]Agape Models Without them? The men on the ground would have to work a lot harder. You can help. Please keep 'em flying! http://www.airtanker.com/
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  • From: Indiana
Posted by hkshooter on Monday, July 30, 2007 8:17 PM

I imagine the old guy down the street who I only meet one day because I ran my car out of gas in front of his house. I knock on the door, he answers, I explain how my gas gauge don't work and I forgot to reset the trip meter. He chuckles, invites me in while he slips on some shoes so he can venture out to the garage to fetch a fuel can for me to borrow.

In a far corner of the room there is a five foot high glass and mahogany curio case. Dusty on top and bearing the scars of many a battle with the vacuum cleaner on the short, stubby legs it nearly disappears into the room. But something catches my eye. Around the corner of a pile of year old mixture of newspapers and magazines I spot a silver vertical stabilizer. Now I'm really looking. Right there! Prop tips! Painted yellow!

Chuckles returns from his trip into some other room of the house I'll assume was the kitchen with his slippers in hand mumbling something about having chicken again, takes up position on the sofa and grunts mildly as he tries to pull his two size to small slippers on his wool socked size elevens with one hand while reaching around his portly midsection. Out of my piqued curiosity, and just as what I assume is the missus enters the room, I ask him if he's a model builder. This results in a snort form the lady and a groan from Chuckles. As Snorts leaves the room through the door that goes who knows where Chuckles confirms that, yes, he sometimes throws a kit or two together, despite the nagging of the wife. Tells him he should stop playing with toys and smelling up the house. He's 68 years old for crying out loud! He gives me a wink and invites me to see what he calls his meager collection of the only piece and quiet he gets. Tells me the wife seems to disappear when he's modeling so he breaks out a kit every chance he gets no matter if he works on it or not. Sometimes sitting for hours watching the TV and never touching the kit, the kit supposedly assures him serenity for the duration of it's visit to the desk in the den.

Inside the case is a maze of finished kits. Mostly warbirds, two helos, a couple of cars (I really like the 66 Ford Galaxie) and a couple of figures. The work is simply amazing. The old Duck looks like it just landed. The float is wet, there is salt and water stains. Support wires are razor thin. One can almost smell the 100 low lead leaking from the center tank where an artfully applied stain serves telltale to the fact that someone ran the thing over.

There is a Mustang that looks war weary, from smudges and smears, scratches and dings, to little beer can patches applied over bullet holes. The real kicker is the tiny, muddy footprints the crewchief left as he climbed up on the wing to greet his plane and pilot back home.

The 1/72 B-24j looks like the real deal, only smaller.

A wright flyer looks like it's as old as the original.

A 1/32 spad has battle damage. The wood spars actually splinter up through the wing fabric where tiny little bullets paved thier way through. Engine oil has been blown down the sides of the fabric and wooden fuselage. One can see wood grain in the struts and prop. "Scratchbuilt Bastard" he calls it, with a slight grin.

An old looking and appropriately weathered F-86 is being loaded for a return trip to the deadly sky from which it just came. There's a guy on the ladder wiping the canopy with a huge grin on his face while pointing to another figure on the ground below who is giving him the finger. A tiny 1/72 scale finger.

An old looking bust I can't identify looks out of the case at me and I nearly want to move from it's line of sight. His face is dirty, weathered from years of horse back riding or sailing or whatever it is that he does. His long dirty hair looks real, matted, dirty. The leather armor is cracked and weathered, curled on the corners. A bow across his back is not strung, the bow string hanging free appears to be blowing in some sort of unheard wind. The arrows are fletched with what I swear looks like real feathers. Very tiny, real feathers. But not real feathers. Are they? His eyes are remarkable. They feel. They see. They are blue. Or Gray? And watering slightly. Even though I move around to take in the masterful work I still feel as if those eyes are following me.

I step back form the case and admire the whole scene while congratulating him on his fantastic work. He makes light of the praise but his face reddens with pride slightly as he scoots a couple of pieces around, adjusts the Mustang so it lines up properly with the Spitfire. As the case door clicks shut he begins a story that comes from his childhood and relates to how and when he started building, talks of his father in WWII and Korea. Mentions brushes and paint cans, old incomplete ship models and pink and purple corsairs doing imaginary bomb runs on tiger striped willys jeeps and jade green Ford Fairlanes with brush marks that would make an oil and canvas painter proud. Tells how it's always been a love of the hobby for him and how he gives most of his work away to his grand children and great grand children.

In the little doorway where a small, weathered gray, wooden, no window door stood until a moment ago he hands me a fuel can and tells me to keep it as long as I need it. His son cuts the grass and usually brings his own mower and fuel. I thank him for the can, promise to return it in an hour and once again thank him for giving me the tour of his curio case.

Can't imagine this imaginary guy ever having made a dime for his work with models. To him, it seems like it would be an insult to suggest he'd take money for his work and he'd sooner turn it down and do it for free just for the asking. It could well be that nobody ever sees his work, apart from the reluctant wife or the gray and brown mottled, far to skinny cat that seemed to not notice the stranger in the room, much less care.

But to me, he'd be a pro.

 

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Green Bay, WI USA
Posted by echolmberg on Wednesday, August 1, 2007 1:02 PM

It's building a model that makes your 4 year old kid's face light up with delight and excitement when you hang it from her ceiling. Smile [:)]

Eric

  • Member since
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  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, August 1, 2007 5:10 PM

I think the basic problem here is that, somehow or other, the word "professional" has assumed a status that it doesn't really have.  Some people seem to use the word "professional" (or "pro") as a compliment.  It isn't. 

A professional modeler is simply one who gets paid for building models.  (The question of whether he/she also has some other form of employment really splits hairs.  The IRS certainly doesn't make any such distinction.)  And, as several folks have already pointed out in this thread, whether a person builds models professionally or not has absolutely nothing to do with how good the models are. 

There's no correlation whatever between the modeler's "professional" or "amateur" status and the quality of models he or she builds.  The professional, in many cases, has access to tools, reference sources, work space, etc. that aren't available to amateurs.  (The professional, after all, can take tax deductions on such things.)  On the other hand, the professional frequently has to deal with deadlines, and has to think in terms of the price he/she is charging for the finished product; the amateur can spend as much time on the model as he/she wants.  I'm sure we've all seen outstanding models built by professionals, and equally outstanding ones built by amateurs.

My own principal interest is ship modeling.  Consider for a second the supposed "ship models" that are sold in the interior decorating departments of places like Wal-Mart and Pier One Imports.  These things are made out of scrap wood, with ludicrously out-of-scale masts and guns, distorted hull shapes, nonsensical rigging, and silly-looking "sails" made out of bed sheet material and "weathered" with black spray paint.  They actually bear no resemblance whatever to the Mayflower, Cutty Sark, or whatever other names happen to be on the little brass plaques on their bases.  I wouldn't allow such objects in my house.  And the people who built them are, in the most literal sense, professional modelers.

I really wish the term "professional-quality" would disappear from the modeling community's vocabulary - along with the equally meaningless "museum-quality."

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

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Posted by IYAAYAS on Thursday, August 2, 2007 5:35 AM
What's your definition of a "pro" modeler?  That's all that matters...right?  Terrell Owens is a professional football player, but he wastes his talent being a cry bay and I hate the day lights out of him.  Some modelers call themselves "pro" modelers, yet they build sub-par kits...who cares...
  • Member since
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  • From: Baton Rouge, Snake Central
Posted by PatlaborUnit1 on Thursday, August 2, 2007 10:21 AM

I liken being a "pro" modeler to being an expert. And we know what an expert is..... a drip under pressure!  I'm definitely no pro, and as far as being an expert, my drips ran out a long time ago...

Oh, and those pro-built models on Ebay: check out the built up photos from any of the bandai kits, they use the awful stickers with a half inch of thick clear film clearly showing around each marking.  Egads!

David

Build to please yourself, and don't worry about what others think! TI 4019 Jolly Roger Squadron, 501st Legion
  • Member since
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  • From: The Green "Mountains", Vermont
Posted by IanIsBored2000 on Thursday, August 2, 2007 11:34 AM
It would appear in modelling you are a pro if you call yourself a pro.  Atleast that's what a lot of people think, especially on ebay.  There's no real words to define a pro.  I guess some people would consider a pro someone who has won awards at a show, but then there are people like me who have never been to a show, mostly for the reason there are none around me that I know of.  I don't personally like the term "pro" since everyone defines it differently, and half the people that are considered pros, well, simply put aren't that great at modelling.
"Scanlon: work your knobby hands on the table in front of you, constructing a make-beleive bomb to blow up a make-beleive world."
  • Member since
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Posted by T26E4 on Thursday, August 9, 2007 8:44 AM

The original context that HKShooter mentioned was the "pro" label on built models on eBay.  Frankly it's just a small marketing angle by modellers who want to be noticed.  But in all honesty, they almost became a moniker for poorly built, quick grabs at cash.  The term "Pro built" became synonomous with a very average to poor model.  However, I understand that the auction listers wanted to catch the eye of potential bidders.

 

That's OK.  They can call themselves "pros" or even "Martians" if they so choose.  To me, the term "pro" is fluid.  Why I'd apply it to my beloved hobby-- I can't see any purpose to define myself under it or not under it.  I'm just a modeller!! 

Roy Chow 

Join AMPS!

http://www.amps-armor.org

 

 

  • Member since
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  • From: White Mountains, NH
Posted by jhande on Saturday, August 18, 2007 4:21 PM

"Pro" or "Professional" is just a word I learned to ignore.
It has no "substantial" meaning when linking to a product or persons occupation.

I was a mechanic for many, many years... oop's Automotive Technician. Some of the other guys in the shop might have been certified for tune-ups but not brakes. Others AC certified but not tune-up certified. But we all performed the same duties (we fixed everything, it didn't matter on the certification). But yet we were all classified "Professional Automotive Technicians". Because being an Automotive Technician was our "profession" (job).
Professional = profession = job. Tongue [:P] 
Plain and simple!

Now... would I want to buy a ready-built model? No!
It doesn't matter whether it is on eBay or professionally built or not. It's already built, defeats the purpose of modeling. Where's the fun factor?

Just my My 2 cents [2c]

  

-- Jim --
"Put the pedal down & shake the ground!"

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