UH-1C help...

If you are interested in more info on Ia Drang and the helos that participated in it, check this thread out:

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If you would just like to build a Huey to honor your cousin, I respect that and build whatever you'd like.  He would  have been inserted by a UH-1D most likely of the 229th AHB.  It would have had markings similar to these.  This is a Army Aviation Heritage Foundation Huey restored to 229th colors:

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If you would like to build a gunship like the ones that participated in the battle, you are pretty much gonna have to build an M3 bird of some type from what I can tell.  the 2/20th ARA (aerial rocket artillary) was the major gunship support for the battle.  Here are some of their birds from the 1965 time frame.  Without the nose mounted M5, the Hueys with either the 19 shot XM159/M200 pods or the 24 shot M3 system were referred to simply as "Hogs"

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Another possibility is a bird armed with the "Maxwell system" which was usually twelve rockets and one SS-11 missile on an outboard pylon.  Of course, you'd have to make the missile somehow.

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The only gun system in country at that time would have been the M16 system which used 4 M60C's and XM157 7 shot rocket pods.  Neither of these come in any of the MRC/Academy boxings.  You can get the quad 60 set from Cobra Company: http://www.cobracompany.com/35026.htm  I'm can't think of a source for the rocket pods right off hand.  Anyway, while this first pic is a UH-1B, the 2/20th was also one of the first units to field the UH-1C and the last pic is actually a UH-1C fitted with the M16 system. 

This first one is actually a "Firefly" ship used for night time perimeter security:

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Here's the UH-1C:

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Those are pretty much your choices for period accurate gunships.  I hope this helps you decide what to build.  If you decide to go with a later weapons configuration, just let us know which one and I'm sure we can help you find photos.  By the way, the Siminar 1/35 UH-1B kit does come with figures.  Be sure to separate the rubber ammo belts from the rotor sprue as soon as you get the kit. It will probably already ahve eaten into the plastic, but maybe you can minimize the damage.

       Ray

Im sure your Huey can be back dated accuratly without after market extras by scratch building modifications and adding door gunner figures with their M-60's strapped to the door frames. Keep it within your budget and have fun!

Agreed Vietnam is a interisting conflict yet the hobby lacks subjects and interist for it. I hope to make a small diorama in tribute to the Long Range Recon Patrols. I read 'LRRP's in action' and others in the series of books by Gary Linder. Very interisting and exciteing stories as each chapter is a different mission. Easy to pick up now and then without looseing interist or the plot.

Well the heavy hog version is what I have.  No miniguns and I'm not going to rob them from my blackhawk kit.  As for doing another one to honor my cousin, I wish I could find out what Helo he was dropped from.  Unfortunately I'm pretty sure that information does not exist, unless I could find someone who survived it who sat next to him and has a good memory.  Which I highly doubt.  I haven't gotten to the point of having to make a final decision on the weapons but I am getting close.  Probably be at that point sometime this weekend.  Hoping to get the fuselage together this weekend at least, if not some paint on it.  Gonna save the figs in case I need them for a UH-1B.  Unless someone knows that the UH-1B comes with the pilot figs, in which case I will toss the pilot figs that came with this, in the seats.

I really do want to use the round rocket pods as I don't like the other ones, I think they look goofy.  Don't really want that launcher on the nose either.  As I said though I'm not totally decided yet.  What options do I have with the heavy hog kit?  I also have the Academy Pave Hawk kit that I MIGHT be able to snag a gun or two from but NOT the miniguns, I want to keep those in the pavehawk.  I have plans for it already.

Well I don't check in for a while and see what I miss.  If you decide exactly which UH-1C you'd like to build, let us know.  I'm pretty sure I have pics of anything you might need.  It sounds as if you've decided to build an M-21 armed bird with the miniguns and 7-shot XM157 rocket pods.  You can find those parts in all the MRC/Academy boxings EXCEPT the Heavy Hog with the M3 (24 shot rocket packs) and M5 (40 mm grenade launcher on the nose) armed bird on the front.  I don't have the "Special Nose Art" boxing, but I think it may have instructions for the miniguns included.  The "Frog" boxing has the parts but not the instructions.  Finally, the UH-1C "Gunship" with the Muskets bird on the front has the parts and instructions for sure.  Just let us know exactly what your final game plan is and we'll be happy to help you with reference materials.

As a side note, I believe primarily M3 armed gunships would have participated in the Ia Drang battle in 65.  Certainly there were no M21 armed birds despite it's appearance in the "We Were Soldiers" movie.  That system wasn't introduced till 1966 and wasn't common til sometime in 67.

HTH

Ray

I don't have the other kit's intructions handy, but the part numbers should be the same.  They should be in the kit to mount the round rocket pods.  They are as follows, C-26, C-27, C-30, and C-5 would be the the mount for the round rocket pods.  There will be another thru piece C-28 to hold it to C-30.  There may be a "cap" to cover the hole where the mini-gun pylon would attach.  The first three are the same for the mounts for the retangular rocket pods.

Here is a post "Rotorhead" Ray posted at another site on the differences between B and C model Hueys.  He explains it much better than I could ever do.

UH-1B's and C's can be distinguished by several key differences.  The B has a 204 rotor with a 21 inch chord, the C has a 540 rotor with a 27 inch chord.  The B has a right handed fuel filler, the C has a left handed fuel filler.  There are about half a dozen weird B's I have seen with left handed fillers and most belonged to the RAN.  The UH-1B has a nose mounted pitot, the C has a roof mounted pitot.  The UH-1B has narrow horizontal stabs (21 inches) with a symmetrical cross section.  The UH-1C has wide stabs (27 inches) with a asymmetrical cross section.

Now for the stuff that DOES NOT separate B's and C's well. First off, the particle separator. That mod is TIME specific not model specific.  The first UH-1C's all had the old bell mouth intake, the particle separator was introduced about mid 1966. In fact, I have test board pics of it being tested in July of 66.  Therefore, both B's and C's after late 66 or 67 could have had the filters installed.  The tails are also not conclusive.  The old UH-1B narrow tail was never carried by C's so it is a good ID tool.  However, numerous UH-1B's recieved UH-1C tailbooms with the wide chord cambered tails due to structural weaknesses or failure of the old B boom.  However, they still retained the narrow UH-1B horizontal stabs.

UH-1B's entered service with the Lycoming T53-L9 engine.  I'm not sure if any got the L-11 engine or not.  All UH-1C's had the L-11 engine and late in the war some were upgraded to the L-13 (same engine as the UH-1H). However, they were designated UH-1M's at that point.  You will see refs that say that the UH-1M was a UH-1C that was fitted with the INFANT (Iraquois Night Fighter and Night Tracker) system. In fact, the INFANT birds were all UH-1M's but just due to the upgraded engine.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the links, tips and pics.  I'll definately be paying attention to that.  What bugs me about this kit is it says other weapons are included(which is true, just not much), but doesn't show how to mount them.  I would really rather have the round rocket pods, but can't find anything that they would mount on.  I'd really prefer a pair of miniguns, but none are included in the kit and I'm NOT raping my blackhawk kit for them.  LOL.  I may try to scratchbuild, but I doubt it.  I think the round rocket pods would suffice if I could figure how to mount them.  The rectangular setup just doesn't do it for me.

Here are a few tips on the rotor head that is incorrect on the model and instructions.  The "cups" on the main rotor blade grips are inverted and should be facing up.  Cut the off and flip them.  Then you will need to scratch build a short pitch change link to attach from the cup to the center of the scissors in the stabilizer bar.  You will then need the two long tubes, parts 44 I think.  Can't find my old instructions at the moment.  They will go from the mixing levers on the swash plate to the end of the scissors in the stabilizer bar.  I attached a couple pictures to help you out.  Also the swashplate nees to be modified by cuttin the two forward "ears" off and "forking" them for the left and right cyclic control tubes.   Also notice the shape of the rotating ring, I added a shim to the bottom of the kit's ring to make it look thicker.  I found the right side of the rear cabin bulkhead needed to be trimmed and some shims added to the two door posts so the front part of  the top of the cabin sits higher.   You will notice the boot on the mast sits higher on a metal sleeve, you may not want to bother with it though.   Alos the main rotor head static stops just under the head  are not included in the kit.

By mid 1966 and early 1967 there were a lot of Units that coverted to UH-1C 's from the "B"models.  Here is a link to my Vietnam Unit Web page, the 174 AHC.  This has the best pictures of our Sharks taken by Robert Brakenhoff in 1970.    http://www.174ahc.org/brackenhoff/

It's different enough.  I'll just go ahead and make it as a gunship for somewhere else in Vietnam.  When and where were the C model gunships used over there?  I would still like to turn it into a tribute of some sort.  I want to do a whole series of 'Nam stuff, since it's generally avoided by most people.

What are the differences between the B and C models?

Here is a short list, I'm sure Ray will check in and give a full rundown, probably with pics.

The B had a longer tail boom, narrower cord stabilators, narrower cord tail fin, different rotor blades (longer and narrower) and rotor head system, fuel filler cap on right side, and a few others I am forgetting.

The C has a shorter tail boom and tail fin, wider cord stabilators, wider rotors and a new rotor head, fuel filler on left side, etc., etc.

They are visually different, but you have to know what you are looking for to see it.

The obvious difference with the C vs D is the size of the bugger, the extended cabin.  What are the differences between the B and C models?  I may just see about picking a D model and using that as a memorial for my cousin, and just build this one as a gunship.

For once I can afford to pickup the aftermarket parts, but I have a problem with spending the $$ on something, on an unknown kit, and unknown if I'll be able to integrate the parts at my skill level.  Don't want to risk ruining AM parts that cost a fair bit of $$.    AM parts aren't needed to build a kit, but it's kind of hard to build a kit without the kit.  LOL.

I seriously doubt there were any Charlie models "in country" at that time.  We have had a discussion about this previously and maybe Ray still has the "data" handy.  The original 174th gunships were thought to be UH-1B's with a "540" rotor system and tailboom but pictures show they had the revised fuel system as well.  I'm sure no one but a serious Huey nut would know the difference, so if you can't afford the update kit just build the Charlie model with the correct Unit Markings and have fun doing it! 

Were there any UH-1C gunships used for support at LZ X-Ray and Albany?  Or any UH-1C's used for any other purpose at that location during those first days?  Any of the Huey's used in those first few days there, would be acceptable to model, since he was infantry and not a pilot.

In regard to your reference to "shark mouth" UH-1C's, the 174th AHC didn't arrive "in country" until 12 April 1966.  You can get a UH-1B back date set from Cobra Company and build a historically correct gunship for the time period you mentioned. 

You are correct on the lack of accuray, C models were not used as troop transports at LZ Xray.  D models were the troop carriers.  There were some B models used as gunships though.  As far as weapons, the D models were only armed with "free" M60 MGs, that is not in a mount, but held by the gunners in their hands with a bungee cord attaching it to the door opening for support and to keep from loosing it.

For more info on helos used at LZ Xray, check out this thread.

Also, the kit you have was engineered by Academy.  There is not, and has never been a DML UH-1C.  There is are the current DML UH-1D/H and UH-1N, which were formerly Panda models.

You might find some help at this website: http://www.lzxray.com/ If they dont have the photos you need there may be a link to someone who does.