1/35 UH-1H Vietnam era Hueys - WIP

  I'm not really sure what your going for here. Both aircraft are UH-1H, not UH-1D models. If your are trying to represent U.S. aircraft from Viet Nam, don't put rocket pods on them. I know, you can find photos of that (VNAF in particular), but for US hueys, that was an extreme exception. Look at Cobra Company : http://www.cobracompany.com/   for after market door gun kits and other mods you might want. I might also note that during the entire time I flew U.S. Army helicopters, I never saw a Huey with a two tone floor like your have depicted. Where did you get that from? If you've got any specific questions, I'll be glad to try to help.

 Gene, the kits he got are the UH-1D HEER boxings. the UH-1H as produced by Augusta Bell is still called the UH-1D in Europe, even though it has the roof mounted pitot.  Youa re correct, of course, that he is building H model though.

HUEYHOG,

 First off. Welcome to the helo forums!  I like your version of OD.  If anyone tells you it ain't right, they haven't seen enough Army Hueys as there are many shades of OD and the sun quickly alters the original colors anyway.  Regarding your models, the interior should be all gray for a Vietnam era helo.  The top of the rotor  should be OD (it varied thoughout the war, but was never black).  the bottom of the blade was usually black, however.  Also, you would usually have six inch yellow tips on the blades.  Tail rotors were usually all OD with yellow tips.  there are NO ABSOLUTES with regard to Vietnam Hueys, but that is the general layout for a lte war UH-1H.  Since you have a OD nose on your bird, she would be a post 1969 bird most likely as earlier Hueys had black anti-glare noses.  For guns you need two M23 systems with M60D machine guns and spade grips.  You can get these from Cobra Company as Gene mentioned.  Check the 1/35 products page for lots of goodies for your Huey.  The guns are the "XM-23" set.  Chris also has a drive train upgrade. anti-strella kit (toilet bowl exhaust found on late model UH-1H's), and a "UH-1 detail/correction set" as well with other upgrades.  For decals, you should go with Fireball Modelworks.  Joseph has a great sheet with everything you need  HERE.  Finally, I would suggest taking some time to peruse THIS thread.  We pretty much talk about anything you would need to know there.  Good luck and let us know if you need more help.

    Ray

Alight I've made up my mind they're going to be slicks I saw my first picture of a huey in grade 4 and it was love at first sight

GeneK

I might also note that during the entire time I flew U.S. Army helicopters, I never saw a Huey with a two tone floor like your have depicted. Where did you get that from? If you've got any specific questions, I'll be glad to try to help.

rotorwash

The top of the rotor should be OD (it varied thoughout the war, but was never black).

rotorwash

  Regarding your models, the interior should be all gray for a Vietnam era helo.

One thing I would really like to have is working door hinges. Any ideas? Since I'm going to make these girls slicks I'm going to buy 2 1/35 UH-1B. Most likely going with sharks and dolphins. Was there any companys that used UH-1H, UH-1B/C, OH-6 and CH-47A? I would also say AH-1G but I can't find one in 1/35

Thanks guys for the welcome and all the info and greats links

  If you go with the 174thAHC, Sharks and Dolphins, be sure to look over their home page. There are lots of pictures there. There is also this:
http://238awc.org/joe2/joe2.html
which is a model of the UH-1H my brother flew in 1968/9 when he was with the 174th. Door hinges will be difficult, but might be doable by scratch building from left over PE. 
  The only reasonable Cobra model is the old 1/32 version from revell and it takes a LOT of re-working to make it correct. Again, Chris at cobra is the best bet for finding one of those, and he has the update kits for them.
  No, there was no one company that flew all those aircraft, they did all exist within one Aviation battalion, and all but the OH-6 flew from that same base at Tuy Hoa in 1971 when I was there. Have fun with the builds!

I was going through the 174th website and came across this pic. Two tone

http://www.174ahc.org/wood-11.htm

First off, let me back up a bit on my first post.  I said the main rotor blades were "never" black on their upper surface.  I should never say NEVER.  However, any black blades usually had a good portion of the blade painted white to make them more visible from above.  You can see that in the model Gene posted the link to.  I guess tat also goes for the interior.  i confess that i am mainly interested in short bodied Hueys and they definitely had all gray interiors for the most part.  Here are a few pics of birds where you can see the tops of the rotor blades.  Pics are from Robert Brackenhoff of the 174th AHC (Dolphins and Sharks).  these are all UH-1C's from 1970 or 71.

OD Top of main rotor, black underneath and black tail rotor all with yellow tips.

"Maltese Cross" with OD main rotor top and OD tail rotor:

"Texas Flag" showing OD upper main rotor, black underneath and OD tail rotor:

If you are going to model gunships to go with your bird, You will want to get the UH-1C kits from MRC/Academy.  Since you are looking to do 174th Sharks, I'd get the "Frog" boxing as it has decals for one of their birds, Surfer Girl in the box.  The 174th only flew a couple of B models during their entire time in Vietnam so go with UH-1C's if you want to build one of their birds.  There is a world of difference between the rotors on the two so don't buy one thinking you can build an accurate version of the other.  The only 1/35 model of a UH-1B is the Siminar kit anyway.

The Cobra Company UH-1 detail set comes with new doors.

For the interior gray on my Hueys I use Mr. Surfacer 1200, believe it or not.  The shade looks pretty much spot on to me.  HTH

  Ray

xHUEYHOGx

I was going through the 174th website and came across this pic. Two tone

http://www.174ahc.org/wood-11.htm

  Rotorwash is right, never say never. I'm sure you could find some nutty crew chief who painted his floors pink. However, if you look at the picture you linked to closely, you will note that the floor of that aircraft is covered with a sheet of plywood. The 174th is the only unit I know of that did that on some (a few?) aircraft, including my brothers. the plywood protected the floor from heavy ammo cans etc, but was removed for things like C&C missions flying VIPs so they had a nice clean floor.

  Also, that photo shows that the lighting, and color quality of photos can be deceptive. In the case of rotors, what looks like black may well be OD. Rotor blades came from the factory painted OD overall. Any repainting, or change of the paint after the blade was installed required rebalancing and tracking the blade. Not hard to do, just a real pain in the ass.

  For markings, the U.S. Army on the tail boom, the color coded stripes on the tail boom (for 1st Avn Bde), the tail number on the tail, and the unit number on the pilots door, were all required by 1st Avn Bde. Again, they were sometimes missing if the tail boom had been changed or if the aircraft had changed units recently. Also in the 174th, the toes of the skids were painted red or yellow depending on which platoon the aircraft was in. The stripes on the tail boom were color coded for each unit (white, blue, white for 174th). All other markings, such as nose art etc, was normally put on by the crew chief and could be anything the CO would allow. Pilot doors could be removed easily, but you very rarely ever saw one flying without pilot doors. the cargo doors however were often removed.

  Again, that's what was "standard" and there were always "exceptions" even if it was only something waiting for the paint to come in because they ran out. Hope this helps.

PS. the model of my brothers UH-1H was done by Joe Kline, an aviation artist who was also a door gunner in Viet Nam with the 101st. here's the link to the three models he did for use several years ago. the other two are aircraft I flew. http://238awc.org/joe2/default.html

Gene,

  Great info.  Speaking of finding all kinds of crazy paint jobs, how about a candy cane colored cyclic!

From the 174th web site:

Regarding rotor blade colors, how about this shot from the 121st AHC Soc Trang Tigers.  You can see almost every other bird has OD main rotor tops while the others have black and white tops.

As far as Slick floors go, well I started looking and from the examples off the 68th AHC website, I gotta say the black and gray is pretty common after all.  However, black pilot seats were not.  In fact, I've neever seen a black seat on a Vietnam Huey.  The entire cabin and cockpit were painted black when the Army upgraded their fleet for NVG flight in the 80's.  before that, all the armored seats I have ever seen were either OD with black trim or Gray with black trim.  Also, the cockpit was always (at least based on what I've seen) painted gray, including the framing in the chin bubble.

But they also had all gray ones as well:

Here's a cockpit photo showing the all gray interior and OD pilot seats:

Hope these help.

  Ray

Posting from iPhone so will be brief. Rotorwash, note that the two tone floors in those pictures are all on UH-1Ds from 1966 era, not UH-1Hs. Different time periods also had different markings 

227th Assault Helicopter Battalion flew all those but lots of units at Battalion level had that TO&E. The 227th got Cobras after the move from An Khe to Lai Khe.  The Cobras all went to Delta Co who also flew the Charlie model gunships as well as being a test unit for the INFANT gunships. All their markings are well recorded and if you need help I can offer it.

Once I'm home today I can provide you with the FS, Federal Standard, colors used in Vietnam Army Aviation and the Tamiya/Testors colors.

I made some changes from the info you guys game me The floor is all grey and the seats and posts are OD now:) After going through the 174th site I decided to get real OD for the body. I stopped painting at the swash plate so the rotors haven't changed

Paintjob looks a little rough but I'm going to try to fix that. I saw a picture of a m16 sitting on a crew seat so I'm going to put a gun on or beside each crew seat.

Made my own door catchers:) I modified the original exhaust by flipping it around and drilling then carving it out.

The sunlight made my OD look like it's been sitting infront of museum for 30 years

I'm going to make them post 69 but I'm going to have the nose door painted black so it looks more defined and it will make the dolphin stand our more

I want to put radio atennas along the tail boom, on top of the tail and between the co/pilots and crew door but would this look right? I've seen a picture with all three but can't I find it.

Here's a few with it along the tail boom. The top right heli in the first pic has the tail boom atenna.

Here's a pic with the tail atenna and the one between the doors.

I came across this too I can't say anymore that no huey in vietnam had a cargo door in the tail boom

I would still recommend adding the door guns from Cobra company:
http://www.cobracompany.com/35017.htm
They add a lot to the look of the aircraft, and are very authentic. The only question is if you want to use the small ammo cans that come with it or make large ones like most units actually used.  Don't worry too much about the shade of the OD paint, we had so many different shades of OD they often didn't match even on the same aircraft! A lot of the Dolphin nose art was done by one guy who was with the unit in 1968. I can't remember his name, but my brother knows him well. There is also a former member of 174th on this board sometimes, maybe he'll have some suggestions.

I came across this too I can't say anymore that no huey in vietnam had a cargo door in the tail boom

That is a USAF UH-1F which had the cargo door.  It was the only version of US Military Huey to have the cargo door.  No UH-1D/H had it, nor did any UH-1B/C or any other US Army Huey.

You are also mixing up different versions and country's helicopters from different eras.  The camo one is an Aussie bird from the late '80s to early '90s.  No US Army helo had the antenna behind the pilots doors.  The pic you have of  the ones behind the pilot's doors is not a US helo either.  Some early command and control birds did have the zig-zag antenna down the tailboom though.    The other antennas in the Dragon kits are for different versions of Hueys or later versions, most non US.

  If you want to be accurate for the 174th in 1968 or later, put the antenna on top of the vertical tail and forget the other two, they didn't use them.

GeneK

If you want to be accurate for the 174th in 1968 or later, put the antenna on top of the vertical tail and forget the other two, they didn't use them.

I've sent out e-mails for pricing/ordering on the decals and door gun set. I've also got two academy 1/35 huey frog kits off ebay on the way. I'm also thinking about making a diorama to showcase these helos and I've got two ideas.

A dirt runway. http://www.174ahc.org/grimplus.htm

or parked like this with oil drums. http://www.174ahc.org/7intrail.htm

I also found this interesting picture a ch-47 with a dolphin. http://www.174ahc.org/brackenhoff/VA_168.html

  OK two quick notes, the CH-47 is not connected to the 174th in any way. The number on it (196 I think) is it's unit number.

  The 174th never had the UH-1B model so be careful about the hog kits, I don't know if they are B or C model. the 174th brought the first ten UH-1C aircraft built to Viet Nam when they deployed. Those were aircraft converted from C models on the production line and there has been some discussion on wheather they were true C models or hybred B/C. From all I have found, they were built as true C models and there were no differences from later Cs.

  One more thing, the picture of the line up on the dirt strip was taken at Khe Sanh during Lam San 719. If your not familiar with that operation, look it up. It was a wild time. I know I was there. The pictures with the "oil drums" are actaully "revetments". the drums, usually filled with sand, are there to protect the aircraft from mortar or rocket rounds. Since they explode on impact with the ground, the revetment can catch most of the shrapnel and protect the aircraft.

  A diorama of the Khe Sanh scene would be great! The only things not dirt were an ASP runway, and the bunkers!

GeneK

  OK two quick notes, the CH-47 is not connected to the 174th in any way. The number on it (196 I think) is it's unit number.

  The 174th never had the UH-1B model so be careful about the hog kits, I don't know if they are B or C model. the 174th brought the first ten UH-1C aircraft built to Viet Nam when they deployed. Those were aircraft converted from C models on the production line and there has been some discussion on wheather they were true C models or hybred B/C. From all I have found, they were built as true C models and there were no differences from later Cs.

  One more thing, the picture of the line up on the dirt strip was taken at Khe Sanh during Lam San 719. If your not familiar with that operation, look it up. It was a wild time. I know I was there. The pictures with the "oil drums" are actaully "revetments". the drums, usually filled with sand, are there to protect the aircraft from mortar or rocket rounds. Since they explode on impact with the ground, the revetment can catch most of the shrapnel and protect the aircraft.

  A diorama of the Khe Sanh scene would be great! The only things not dirt were an ASP runway, and the bunkers!

Academy/MRC kits are ALL UH-1C's, so no worries.  Also, Gene is definitely correct.  There were no hybrid B/C models with the 174th.  Believe me, we beat this topic to death a while back. the only reason i can see for thinking this is that the early UH-1C's had the old style bell mouth intake and not the later particle separators on the engine cowling.  

Not sure where the info about the first 10 UH-1C's coming to the 174th came from but it's not accurate.  the first ship 64-14101 was sent the US Army Aviation Test Board.  In fact, if the 174th's own website is accurate, only 5 of it's UH-1C's came from the first batch of 100 built.  Of these, none arrived in the unit before 1967.    Later 65 birds actually arrived earlier. some arriving in 1966.  The earliest UH-1C I know of is a bird from the 2/20th ARA (later Blue Maxx) which came in country in 1965.

    Ray

Here is the earliest UH-1C in country I know of.  2\20th ARA 1965.  Note she has the old bell mouth intake, nose mounted FM antennas, and the old M16 quad M60C armament system.  However, she has all the trademarks of a UH-1C including; roof mounted pitot, left hand fuel filler and bracing for the M156 universal armament mount.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w177/ultrasauros/4-77th%20ara%20griffons/4-77tharagriffons6.jpg

Here is the first UH-1C, Bearcat 4, right after reciept by the US ARmy Aviation Test Board:

and here is my build of her in 1/72:

Here is the Bearcat 4 testing the particle separator on July 25, 1966 at Yuma Proving Grounds.  I think it is safe to say that no Vietnam Hueys received this mod before that date.  You can clearly see that the particle separator is painted a different shade than the rest of the bird.  I wish i could find a color photo because it might have even been high vis orange as it is customary to paint the part being tested that color.

Just for grins and giggles, here is a UH-1B fitted with the 540 rotor system froma  photo of Edwards Air Force Base in 1967.  You can see the widened tail fin and no left handed fuel filler plus the 540 rotor:

  I'm not sure what your looking at on their web page, but the Gold Book list posted on their page (your link) clearly shows the first nine C models they had were serial numbered 65-09423 to 432 consecutive. Yes, I worded what I said a little wrong. they were not the first UH-1Cs but were in the first full production batch when production was changed over to C models from B models. the first tests of the 540 rotor had been done on UH-1Bs but were a failure. Bell then began the redesign of the B into the UH-1C including the larger fuel tank, cambered tail, and of course the 540 rotor. The aircraft like 14101 were converted from B models, some during production, but were not full production Cs (14101 does nto appear in the Gold Book since it didn't serve in Nam). The full production Cs begin with serial number 65-09416, but were still part of the final purchase authorized for the UH-1B. One of the reasons some thought they were "hybrid" B/C models was that some photos show them without the brace on the weapons mount. 
  By the way, I actually flew 09423 after we converted it to what some call the "M" model. We didn't call it that at the time, it was still C model to us. That was not with 174th however.

Gene,

  All I know is that I have the US Army Aviation Test Board negatives and 14101 is listed as the first production UH-1C.  Furthermore, the USAAF serial number database HERE shows 14101 as the first production UH-1C with another 90 birds in the same batch.  You'll also note that 14100 was a UH-1B with the previous batch but 14192-14201 are listed right after this fist batch of UH-1C's as a canceled UH-1B contract.  From this info, I concluded that 14101 was part of the original order of UH-1C's.  Regardless, Your point is correct that the 174th received some of the earliest UH-1C's in Vietnam.  I can understand why you wouldn't call a updated Charlie a Mike model, after all it was just an upgrade from the T53 L-11 engine to the T53 L-13 used on Hotel models.  I would dearly love to fly in a UH-1C/M but there are precious few still airworthy.  

   Ray 

I just thought I would throw in my "two cents" since Gene mentioned there was a 174th Vet lurking in the forum. 

I was in the 174th after Lam Son 719, lucky me, from Jun 71 to Oct 71 when we stood down the Unit.  Attached a few pic's of a Revell 1/32 I built in 1972 and touched up about 5 years ago. 

This pic shows my scratch built mount for the M-60 with the shell catcher and larger mini-gun ammo can we used.  During my time in the 174th there weren't any ships with the 174 on the doors.  I was depicting an earlier bird with the Witch Doctor logo on the nose.  You can see the white and blue tain ban and the antenna step up that was pretty much standard for slicks except for the "C&C" birds. 

Pic of the pylon assembly showing the different shades of grays and silver on the various parts.

Pic of a UH-1H 1974 model pylon assy showing the different colors of the parts.

Pic of me in Witch Doctor 16650 in Aug of 1971.  Shows the larger mini-gun ammo can we used.   Note the C Ration  can for  the ammo feed, screw drivers and smoke grenades on the main troop seat support and canteen under the seat.

Pic of me as an "FNG" almost 41 years ago getting ready to go on my first Test Flight of a Shark.  I was working in the Electric Shop at the time.  I believe it was UH-1C "190".   Note the gunner and crew chief seats were the bases of standard jump seats without the backs with a canvas covered piece of armor plate to sit on.  Notice the hump on the floor for the mic switch and older style helmets. 

Mel,

  Great to see you back on the forum.  I love the Witch Doctor build.  Always good to hear from the guys who were there.  One question, I thought the ammo can you are using with the M23 mount was a 20mm ammo can, but you said it was for mini gun ammo.  If it is for minigun ammo, how many rounds came in each can? Thanks.

     Ray

Ray,

It's been way too long for me to remember anything specific about the "mini-gun" ammo cans.  We didn't have any 20 mm and all our 7.62 ammo came in the large cans.  I would guess about 1500 to 2000 rounds would fit in one can.  It took two guys to pick up one can of ammo.

Mel,

  Thanks.  It's not really important, just another little detail I was trying to sort out.  As always thanks for sharings your photos and memories with us.

    Ray

Ray - The ammo can is the same for 20mm, 40mm, and also used for 7.62 minigun belted ammo.  It is the same one that some 160th SOAR MH-60Ls use in place of the large, central ammo can.

Just a little update. Haven't had much time to work on these girls but trying to squeeze in a few hours here there. I've got my two 204s in and my decals from fire and I'm psyched to get working on them. I also have one more dragon uh-1d(3538) coming in but I had to pay a little extra considering it's so rare right now. So it's going to be two sharks and three dolphins I've got a few questions about decals and painting. Is there some special technique to putting decals on to make them less shiny and blend in with the paintjob? I'm giving up on the paint brush but I'm curious if a spray can would work as well as airbrushing?

They come as a UH-1B but the kits have the parts to change them into Cs.  I've only been working on the left one and the right ones main rotor.

I took apart the transmission cover and raised the transmission and going to do the same on the other one. The seat aren'ts right but I'm up in the air if I'm going to make them right by switching them to vietnam era seats.

I have a ton of fun ahead of me