AH-60 DAP Blackhawk!

Thanks Screaminhelo for the link. I have checked out this site and it is a good one ...!

I can't remember who origionally posed the question of the H-60 blade tips. but ppickett is dead on. One thing that may not be apparant in the photos in H-60 in action is the bulge in the leading edge of the blades. This is greatly overdone in the Academy kit. I'm not sure if there are any pics showing off the blades there but you can try going to www.1-171st.com and look at the Alpha company area for some pics. Sorry there are 150 or so pics to sort through to get a little info but it is worth a try.

You would be amazed at the difference there can be between blades at full Fwd cyclic.

Guys,

Depending on the position of the swashplate the two forward blades could have a different pitch than the two rearward or even from side to side, hence the apperance of two blades being up and two down. Full forward cyclic and the front blades should be reatively flat and the two rear with some up pitch. Clear as mud right!

Paul, thanks for the explanation. I was not sure, and I was leaning to the side of the explanation that the tips of the blades were either fixed (two up and two down) or that they were moveable, with the movement being co-ordinated by the stick. Looks like I was wrong but at least I have cleared up this illusion.

My thinking was that since this was a military helo, this was some kind of fine pitch control or something like that. I looked at the only helo's (in 1:1 scale available) at the airport, but since none were Blackhawks, they did not count.

At least we all have had a good laugh at this, plus we all have learned something new!

Thanks and keep the information coming!

Rob Savage

Oh BTW, that book is on order by me, so at least I had a chance to speak to someone who has done one of these books!

Thanks again!

Rob,
What you are seeing is an optical illusion. I can see where you would come to that conclusion based on these photos. I'm the author of the Squadron Signal book, H-60 Black Hawk in Action, as well as a former UH-1H Medevac Huey Crew Chief and assure you that the blade tips are just caps attached to the end of the blade to reduce acousitic signiture and while they are swept for that purpose, they remain in the same plane as the rest of the blade. Gino is on the money in his description of blade movement. However to add to some other comments ... blades can be at different pitch at different points in their rotation and therefore all four blades on a Black Hawk could be at a SLIGHTLY different pitch as compared to each other. This is how you tilt the rotor disk to move laterally as Gino described. This is from input from the cyclic stick. The blades change pitch individually during one revolution or CYCLE, hence the term cyclic stick. Just note that each blade will be at the same pitch as all the rest at a specific point in the rotation. That's a must to tilt the rotor disk in the desired direction. As Gino also indicated, pulling up on the collective increases the pitch of all blades at the same time ... or COLLECTIVELY .. hence the term, collective lever. This control is for vertical motion (altitude) in a hover or in normal flight. Altitude can also be changed by using the cyclic when the aircraft is moving. In that case the cyclic acts very much like the elevators on a fixed wing aircraft. All conventional helicopters fly in this manner .. the only differences today is how they are attached to the hub (bearings, bearingless, rigid .. fully articulated and so on) and in what direction they rotate. One last point to remember .. lift is generated by any wing ... be it rotorary or fixed by creation of low pressure over it's upper surface. This is caused by forcing the air that moves over the top of the rotor or wing to go faster by 'taking the long way around' as compared to the shorter path of the air going under the wing. The faster the velocity of the air ... the lower the pressure. (Think of a hurricane) Pitch changes the angle of attack of a rotor blade, creating deeper low pressure (and more lift) in the same way a fixed wing pilot pulls back on the stick or yoke. Hope this helps and hope I didn't bore you all to tears.
Paul Pickett

More links;

www.airliners.net/openfile/607842/M/
www.airfieldmodels.com/information_soource_/references_for_model_builders/Blackhawk/images/wallpaper/15101.jpg

See what I mean by the tips appearing to sweep upwards in the photo's.

Rob Savage

PS You might have to type in the last few parts to get the links to work.

Some links for the photos I am using. I have printed these photos in B&W, usually about 8 1/2 X 11 landscape format. The printer here at the Library in London is new, so the quality is not bad. Links are;

www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Blackhawk/4300.html
www.xs4all.nl/~verdon/usa/UH60A8524747.jpg
www.specialoperations.com/Aviation/Black_Hawk/Photo_Gallery/mvc-122f.jpg
fwernerjr@comcast.net (photos by Floyd S. Werner, Jr)
Airliners.net (Blackhawk gallery)

Most of these above have Galleries and you can see by the angles that the tips "seem to" have a pitch to them. I have dozens more, but these are a representative sample of what I mean.

Rob Savage

Yeah, see that's the problem .... I am working from pict's from the net, and that could be the reason. I have only seen the Blackhawk once, and that was 17 years ago. I could be visual illusion from the angle that the picture was taken. Give me about 1/2 hour or so, and I will post some links to some of the pict's so that you can see what I mean here.
If I'm wrong, OH Well, what else is new?
Rob Savage

I gotta back up HeavyArty on the variable twist blade tips. I've never seen any photos that show this and every Black Hawk and Jayhawk I've seen had solid blades.

It's probably an illusion caused in part because the tips of the blades sweep back. When in motion and at an angle, they could appear to pivot up or down.

Howdy fellas,

First off, Gino is correct. There is no helo that exists where ONLY the tip of the blade changes pitch...but, (and I really hesitate to even tiptoe around here) there are indeed helos where the entire blade surface "changes pitch" during a portion of it's rotation.

It just sounds like you're (Rob) seeing some type of visual illusion..........

Tread.

Actually, there was also a...........never mind ;-)

Could Rob be refering to the trim tabs?

Albert

I agree with you on the research and striving for reality and accucy. However, I still hold to my claim that the blades do not do that. They are a solid blade without any ability to turn, bend, or twist up or down at the tips only. If you could point me to some of these photos, maybe it will clear it up.

Thanks for the pict's Albymoore! I seen the first two, only in B&W so this is interesting! Gona save the page and print them out.

Rob Savage

I'll try it again. On a Blackhawk, at the end of the rotor blade, the last maybe 36 inches or so is swept back. In some of the pictures I have (about 35 pictures from the Internet) one tip is swept back and up, but on other pictures, (again about 30 or so) it is swept back and down. I guess I was not clear in my last post, as it could said that I meant the whole blade. I only mean the last 36 inches or so, with the rest of the Blade flat to the rotor mast.
The reason I ask this is that on the Academy box, on the side panels, are pictures of the completed kit, showing two tips pointing down and the next two pointing up (very slightly .... about 2' up)
For the sake of reality, having no memory of the only time I have seen a Blackhawk, I can't seem to find a picture showing all four blades accurately.
It's a moot point, but ya know, if I complete the kit, someone will then say, " ....the blades are wrong, they should be this ....." and that deflates all the intended work on this kit
Remember, I mostly do Armour, and you can (and many do ....) argue about this or that on a tank or armoured vehicle. I strive for exactatude in all my kits, and that is why it takes me sometimes a year or so on one kit, as I check and re-check references each day.

Thanks and keep the information coming ...all appieciated!

Rob Savage

PS If you have a link that shows a Blackhawk with all four blades clearly, then PLEASE post it. Thanks again!

QUOTE: Originally posted by Rob Savage Thanks for the answer HeavyArty. Maybe I should clarify my question this way: On the side of the Academy Box, it shows the completed model with two tips that, if you look at them on a profile or side on view, two angle up and two angle down. I have pict's from the Net, that show this same thing, but they only show one blade, not all four at the same time. The only video tape I have of a Blackhawk, unforunatley shows it with it's blades turning (the one that blew me over ...) and it is useless for this question. If you look at the blades, on the sprues, they angle back as you said above, but they are all flat. My thinking is that they are the same as the variable pitch on a standard prop, and they are in this (two up and two down) configuation as if the bird had just landed. It is a small point, but this makes a Blackhawk kit stand out, as this is one of the first points (place) that you look at, if looking at the completed kit. Thanks for information and please keep the answers coming! Rob Savage

Rob,
I think it is someone using creative modeling. It is not possible to have two blades up and two down on a Blackhawk or any other type helicopter. The blades are all connected and work together. You can not selectively change the pitch of them. All four would have the same pitch.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Rob Savage Thanks for the answer HeavyArty. Maybe I should clarify my question this way: On the side of the Academy Box, it shows the completed model with two tips that, if you look at them on a profile or side on view, two angle up and two angle down. I have pict's from the Net, that show this same thing, but they only show one blade, not all four at the same time. The only video tape I have of a Blackhawk, unforunatley shows it with it's blades turning (the one that blew me over ...) and it is useless for this question. If you look at the blades, on the sprues, they angle back as you said above, but they are all flat. My thinking is that they are the same as the variable pitch on a standard prop, and they are in this (two up and two down) configuation as if the bird had just landed. It is a small point, but this makes a Blackhawk kit stand out, as this is one of the first points (place) that you look at, if looking at the completed kit. Thanks for information and please keep the answers coming! Rob Savage

Rob,
I think it is someone using creative modeling. It is not possible to have two blades up and two down on a Blackhawk or any other type helicopter. The blades are all connected and work together. You can not selectively change the pitch of them. All four would have the same pitch.

Some pics that may be of interest to you. According to the post, the photos are from Operation Restore Hope. These were posted at a military photo discussion board.









HTH,
Albert

Thanks for the answer HeavyArty. Maybe I should clarify my question this way: On the side of the Academy Box, it shows the completed model with two tips that, if you look at them on a profile or side on view, two angle up and two angle down. I have pict's from the Net, that show this same thing, but they only show one blade, not all four at the same time. The only video tape I have of a Blackhawk, unforunatley shows it with it's blades turning (the one that blew me over ...) and it is useless for this question. If you look at the blades, on the sprues, they angle back as you said above, but they are all flat.

My thinking is that they are the same as the variable pitch on a standard prop, and they are in this (two up and two down) configuation as if the bird had just landed. It is a small point, but this makes a Blackhawk kit stand out, as this is one of the first points (place) that you look at, if looking at the completed kit.

Thanks for information and please keep the answers coming!

Rob Savage

Not sure what you are talking about. All the UH-60s I have seen (including the Academy kit) have flat or straight blades in the horizontal plane. From above, the blade tips angle back. The entire blade does rotate up or down to a degree like variable pitch on a propeller. This is what gives the helicopter lift. The more pitch in the blades, the more bite the blades take out of the air and the more lift produced. The blades on all helos act in this manner. That is what makes them fly. All four blades move in the same direction when the collective stick on the floor of the cockpit is pulled up or down, thus controlling verticle flight. The cyclical stick controls horizontal flight by moving the entire rotor head in the direction you want to travel. The foot pedals contrlo the rotation of the tail in the yaw axis by changing the pitch of the tail rotor, just like a propeller and moving the tail right or left about the axis of the rotaor blades.

Hope that answers your question. If not, here is a site that can explain it better than I can. http://www.helis.com/howflies/ontheair.php

I have a second question ..... I am still in the prep stage for this build, and I have noticed that the rotorblades on the Blackhawk have tips that either turn up or turn down. But I am not clear as to wether the blades (tips) act like the variable-pitch propellers on a plane or two are turned down and two are turned up, all the time. I have seen models with this arrangement, but I cannot find any pictures that are clear, that show all four tips clearly to answer this question. I would think that if the latter was correct, the ride in this helo would be rough.

Rob Savage

Thanks Cairnsy!

For an Operation Gothic Serpent MH-60L Heres what I can tell you as told to me by a Doorgunner from the 160th who flew the mission on Oct 3-4 1993. The Blackhawks were all MH-60L, They were black with OD Markings, No IFR probe, Pilot Doors were removed for missions, FLIR and Radar Dome were fitted but not the angled missile detectors on the nose. No ESSS wings were used during missions the AH-6 was used for fire support. The internal fuel tanks were removed for missions due to small distances flown and to fit more passengers in the back. the aircrafts call sign was painted on the window of the cargo door on both side eg Super 68 had "68" painted on the windows. As for the Crews they all wore Desert sand coloured flying suits with a pistol usualy on the thigh and ther survival vest( unsure what type) and helmet personal weapons were Mp-5 or M-16 usually. M-134 were the only weapons carried no .50s and the miniguns were fed by 2 individual 20mm ammo box one per gun not the huge central one like the HH-60G in the Kit . As for Crew i can recommend the Dragon Nam chopper crew need a bit of tweaking but theyll fit the part( and the cockpit thank god) and for the back the options are endless ive got the 1993 Delta force and the US Sniper team to do some mixing and matching to get what Im after. thats all i can thing of off hand but hopefully its helped a bit

Cairnsy

All, I too am planning on building a MH-60K out of the 1/35 Academy MH-60G USAF Pavehawk kit. I bought it before the DAP bird came out. I only need a FLIR turret to complete the gathering of extra parts to make it into a US Army MH-60K. Does anyone have an extra FLIR turret or could someone cast one for me. I am willing to pay or trade for it. I have a huge stash of parts for helos and armor. Thanks.

HAHAHA! Getting sandblasted by a Blackhawk. I there, man!... I remember that I ended up with a mouth full of cut grass (NO, not THAT KIND!) and I couldn't breathe for a second or two. Thanks for the colour suggestions, as that sounds more right than the FS# colour paint (for helo drab) that I saw at my LHS, last week.
At least you have had a ride or two in a Blackhawk () as all I have done is sat in the doorway. I've had access (again at the airshow) to a C-47, and an HH-53, and in this HH-53, someone forgot to lock the stowage box behind the co-pilot, and in this box was a M-60! Wholly Crap!, I thought, that's all we need, was some kid pulling this thing out of that box ..... the Helo was full of 10 year olds, pulling at this and grabbing that .... and in the footage you will see me put my foot (or trying to ....) to close it, trying to keep little hands from playing with it. I warned the father to watch his kids. At least I have colour footage of the inside of this HH-53.

Anybody else got funny stories about Blackhawks, etc ??? PLEASE keep the tips coming, as I need all that I can get!

Thanks in advance!

Rob Savage

I'm currently working on a MH-60L, though I'm not sure if I'm going to set it in Somalia. I'm using a 70-30 mix of Model Master US Army Helo Drab and Model Master Flat Black as the overall color of the helo. It seems to be very close to the actual color. I wouldn't use straight flat black since the sun bleaches the aircraft so the actual color is a very dark grey. A perfect match for the faded flat black of the SOAR helicopters is Aircraft Interior Black. Hope this helps.
That rotor wash is really something. My ROTC unit was fortunate enough to do an air assualt mission every April. This time we landed on a sandy clearing in the middle of a forest. When the Blackhawk lifted off, I was under the rotor disc in the prone position. Sand went down my neck and in my helmet. It was great (the ride on the Blackhawk, not the sand in my uniform).

Thanks for the information. I have Durants's book already, and I have most of the pict's from the internet too. I have been planning this model for about 7 months now. Salbando, my alternate e-mail is;

robsavage19@yahoo.ca

and I appriciate any pict's that you send me. I check my e-m's each day, ecept for Sunday's, as I am using the Public Library system's computers.
Albymoore, thanks for the links too, as I have now downloaded these pictures too. Adrake2 thanks for the information too! Keep it coming folks!!
What is needed here folks, is confirmation and pictures of the tail numbers, and the artwork on each Helo. I have read the posts as much as I can, from the Aircraft resource center website, and others, and there is much disagreement as to the colour of the helo's, the tail numbers, and the artwork. Also, I just realized that I think I bought the wrong kit, as I should have purchased the MH-60 kit #2192 or #2201 from Academy. Oh Well, what else is new, as it looks like a tough project! I like projects like this, where there is much contriversy about the final subject. Again, PLEASE KEEP the information coming. I think that a complitation article is needed here, to settle the score. It is important as this is a reminder of what these folks did for us!

Also I have video I shot of the first UH-60's way back in 1985 time period. I live in London Ontario and each year we have the largest modern military airshow in North America, outside of a airforce base. Usually NATO aircraft, and in this year, it was the first time that the Blackhawks appeared. I have a fond memorie of being blown over, at the end of the show, as these Blackhawks had to leave early and yours truly was sitting about 30 ft away from one, as it wound up and took off. I stood up to get a better shot of it (with my new $7000 dollar {then!!} Video Camera) and the pilots took off over me, and the rotor wash blew me and the camera over and over and over. In the video you see the Blackhawk lift up then all hell breaks loose, as the scene shifts to a whirling dirvish of green and sky. (the grass at the airport had just been cut that morning !)
I haven't looked at that tape in a long time, but I distintly remember that these Helo's were black too.

Thanks for the information and please keep it coming!

The MH-60 DAP photo you've got might be a MH-60A. The MH-60A was the first Army Special Ops Blackhawk to enter service with Task Force 158, which was formed for a second attempt to rescue American hostages in Iran in 1980. A second attempt was never launched, but rather than disband the newly formed task force, the Army leadership decided to keep it as a permanent asset in case something like the Iran embassy incident occured again. The unit was redesignated, Task Force 160 in 1981. The MH-60A has no radar, but does have the AN/AAQ-16 FLIR. The UH-60s for TF 158 came from the 158th Aviation Battalion, 101st Air Assault Division.

Rob

Check out Mike Durant's book, "In The Company of Heroes." It's a facinating read and it backs up everything Sal mentioned about the crewmen's weapons (Durant's own MP5 kept jamming on him)

Rob,
I spent a little over 5 months there and have answered a lot of the same questions you have asked. Here goes:
1) The 160th MH-60L's didn't use internal aux tanks as the ranges flown were minimal, and they were primarily configured for max pax. Some of the regular army -60's used ESSS and the Medevac -60's as well.
2) There actually two internal aux tanks mounted side-by-side against the rear bulkhead. Sometimes we use only one, sometimes both, sometimes neither. The mission and environment dictate how many.
3) Since we're talking about Gothic Serpent, only the M-134 miniguns were used. Ever insert bird also carried two (sometimes 3) Delta snipers. The D-boy snipers used M-25's (accurized M-14's) M-4's and I think a saw a couple SR-25's or AR-10's.
4) While the 160th guys brought two DAP kits with them and even used them for training (to keep currency etc..) they were never used operationally during Gothic Serpent. For that fact, I don't remember ever seeing an MH-60L using ESSS during my deployment there.
5) The MH-60L's in Gothic Serpent were Army Helo Drab (I've got the photos to prove it). Interestingly the Killer Eggs and 6-Pax (AH-6's and MH-6's) were flat black.
6) A personal think for each crewmember. MP-5's were sometime carried in thigh rigs but were generally stowed up front somewhere. Crewchiefs had M-4 carbines and M-16A2's usually stowed behind the pilot's seats but were also stowed elsewhere. We stowed them hanging off the webbing on the H-bar directly over the minigun ammo bins. All crewmembers also usually carried at least one pistol (issues M-9, but some had Sigs and 1911's) in a thigh rig or in a vest holster.
8) IFR probes were not used in Gothic Serpent for the same reason as Item 1). Add that the only refueling asset were two USMC KC-130's based out of Mombasa Kenya but I think they left when the marines left prior to Gothic Serpent.

I vividly remember that some MH-60L's had the nose radar and some did not. All had the FLIR turret mount's but didn't have FLIR installed for every mission. There were no plume detectors that I saw but each one had nose and tail mounted APR-39 radar detectors.

I've got LOTS of pics, but they're pretty big (resolution) and I still haven't mastered how to make them smaller. If you've got the space in your e-mail account, shoot me your e-mail address and I'll try to hook you up. I'm currently pulling SAR alert and we're in the middle of our busy season so bear with me on the time.