MH-60L DAP question

I would LOVE to see the Pavehawk stuff Sal!

I can imagine TFOA reports with M-130s mounted on the front, there is not much structure in the step fairings. We have never had a problem with that but all of ours are in the back, that could be part of the difference. We do get alot of cracked mount brackets though. SM shop got a letter for temp repair and reinforcment of the brackets and that signifigantly reduced the cracking.

On a similar note, I am starting to get my pics together and getting a personal web page so I can post a walkaround. It will be mostly UH-60L.

Mac

QUOTE: Originally posted by salbando Hell, I might even talk him into displaying other stuff like our HC-130H/N's, PJ gear, etc...

Yeah, you're really gonna have to twist my arm to get those posted.

They're all good when that corkscrew plume is headed your way.

Actually, the AN/ALE-39/47 dispensors are supposed to be better. More countermeasures, and the mounts allow for some adjustment as to direction of fire/deployment. When we had the M-130's we had an inordinant amount of TFOA reports (Things Falling Off Aircraft). Don't ask me why, but with the new system, those problems went away. In fact, while we remove the forward dispensors at home for peacetime SAR, we leave the four on the tailboom mounted and just install covers over the dispensor tubes/chutes. When we had the M-130's we had one on each side of the tailboom, and one each firing downward mounted on the sponsons. If my memory is correct, the MH-60L's had them the same way. Kind of a universal configuration for the Blackhawk and the M-130.

BTW, Grant has approached me with a great idea. I'll provide a bunch of photos and detail/technical descriptions of the Pavehawk, and he'll take care of getting the webspace and running a website to display the stuff. What do you guys think?? Hell, I might even talk him into displaying other stuff like our HC-130H/N's, PJ gear, etc...



Gino,
Sounds like a good plan. Your DAP bird is looking good!

Hey Gino,
I did see an MH at Hunter when we came in last week, don't know if K or L, but it did have plume detectors on the nose. I can't say about the CM dispensers. If you are using M-130s I am pretty sure that they will be on the tail. To my knowledge, a different dispenser has to be used if it is mounted on the step fairing. The Force has the good ones right Sal?

Mac

Sal,
Thanks. I was wondering where you were. Knew you would respond though. What you said above is what I figured. I will probably do my DAP up with plume detectors on the nose just as in the kit, with the four M-130 general purpose dispensors on the tailk. I have the MH-60G kit that I will probably do up in Euro-1 scheme with plume detectors on sponsons and 6 AN/ALE-39/47 Counter Measure Dispensor System.

Thanks again,
Gino

Well here's the deal (as someone who works out of Pavehawks). What you'll find out in the fleet is a mix of aircraft in various stages of upgrades. For example, right now out of our six birds, 3 have the most current ugrades. Plume detectors on the nose and tail fairing (not on the step sponsons), and 6 AN/ALE-39/47 Counter Measure Dispensor Systems. One on each side of the aircraft on the sponsons, and also aimed horizontally outward (adjustable mounts), and 2 on each side of the tailboom, one firing up and one firing down (just like in Gino's pictures). They also have the HF antenna and radio removed (laundry rack on the lower left tailboom). 2 have external ammo bins and gun mounts and there are some other subtle systems upgrades which might show as an antenna moved here and there. Note that the 2 with the external gun mounts/ammo bins have their forward flare/chaff buckets repositioned rearward off the sponson about midway on the main gear strut. This is because the new external gun mounts attach where the buckets used to be on the sponsons.
Now these birds are fresh out of depot (either Texas or Korea) and are coming back in the gray paint schemes.
We also have 3 in the partial upgrade configuration. The main diferences being the plume detectors on each forward sponson (canted outward) and the retention of the HF radio and antenna. Oh...and they're still painted Euro-I. Now bear in mind these particular 3 birds still have the AN/ALE-39/47 CMDS with 6 chaff/flare buckets.

The older system that we went away from a long time ago is the 4 countermeasure bucket configuration that you still see on US Army Helo's, to include MH-60L's. This is the M-130 general purpose dispensor and it was mounted firing downward on each sponson, and 2 on each side of the tailboom I believe firing upwards . It holds less countermeasures than the AN/ALE-39/47 CMDS (which holds 60 flares or chaff bundles). The reason we changed over were obvious...more countermeasures and better defensive coverage. Include that the newer detection system that went with the upgrade made the system better by increasing automation and detection ability.

Understand that whenever there's a new upgrade, we (USAF Rescue Squadrons) don't all just shut down and send all our birds to depot until they're upgraded, rather they're cycled through. That's why you see the mix of birds and there different configurations.

Sincerely,
Your humble Pavehawk answer man.

Just wanted to add my 2 cents:

I have a picture of a MH-60L with plume detectors on the step fairings. I have to ask if I can post it because it was not published on the intenet.
Anyway it seems that what trigger said about the Pavehawks goes also for the Blackhawks, i.e. that there are various possible configurations and they are all correct.

No problem, hope I was able to help. If I find out anything about how many flare dispensers DAPs carry, if it's 4 or 6, I'll let you know.

Thanks, that is what I thought.

Naw, they didn't go back to 4 - that PH just hadn't been upgraded at the time the pic was taken. Either way would be correct for both helicopters; it all just depends on from what point in time you want your kit to represent.

OK. guess I have been missinformed. I guess either way would be good for an MH-60L DAP or MH-60G Pavehawk. The plot thickens. Why would they go from 6 chaff/flare boxes back to just 4 on the tailboom, I guess the front ones weren't needed?

With all due respect, they're recent. Some of those links point to Pave Hawks involved with the recent relief efforts in South East Asia. And aircraft that are overall Gunship Gray are those that recently came back from depot, and those mods have been implimented within the last couple of years. That's a dead giveaway. One of the 152 mods (there were four stages) moved the plume detectors to the nose.

The trick with the Pave Hawks is, the Mods seem to be piecemealed on. So it wouldn't be unusual to see a mix of different Mods (different configurations), even now and even with the same unit.

Trigger, I think the Pavehawk photos you have there are older, post ODS up till about 2000 versions.

Here are some of Pavehawks with latest plume detectors and chaff/flare boxes on step fairings and 2 chaff/flare boxes on tail boom, 2003 to current birds in OIF.






Looking to see if DAP has gone to same setup.

Actually, both the DAPs and Pave Hawks have the plume detectors on the nose these days. The nose location is a recent Block Mod (162 I think)
http://www.af.mil/media/photodb/photos/041216-F-0000W-002.jpg
http://www.af.mil/media/photodb/photos/041217-F-1740G-005.jpg
http://www.af.mil/media/photodb/photos/050111-F-1740G-008.jpg
http://www.af.mil/media/photodb/photos/041209-F-0000W-001.jpg

Pic of an MH-60L with ESS installed
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/gallery/fortbragg/gallery/4a5.shtml

(Old) Pics of MH-60L:
http://www.specialoperations.com/Images_Folder/library11/mh60rf.jpg
http://www.specialoperations.com/Images_Folder/library11/mh-60lside.jpg

There's a great MH-60L walkaround from 2002 over on aircraftrecourcecenter.com; it only shows 4 flare dispensers, all on the tail. I don't know about 2005 however.

Maybe Salbando or Cobrahistorian will spot this and be able to answer the flare question.