Why did USMC Not Change Over to the Apache?

I for one dont mind hearing from those who have actual hands on experience with the aircraft , it ads to the interest of the discusion for me .
CFR

QUOTE: just trying to keep the site relevant to modeling. Plenty of chat boards and forums out there for pilots and helos as well. Since it is a modeling site, lets stick to modeling relevant issues.

WOW guys i have never and i mean NEVER seen so many acronyms in 1 place LOL. but this thread has some great info and ideas to throw around as for my i'm glad our military has bolth the apache and the cobra. the snake is lean and mean & and the apache is a big scarey beast and if i remember right didn't iraqui soldiers SURRENDER just seeing US attack helos bolth cobras and apaches???
so to all whirleybird warriors out there keep being DEATH FROM ABOVE

Wow!!! Just have opened this thread a few minutes ago. Quite a ride!! As a civilian who's neither flown nor flown in any military chopper, what I will say is I really admire all you guys who do/have done so for a living. And that goes for all the other military guys on this forum. From a very appreciative civilian; THANK YOU. Now, as far as building models goes, anybody who wants to build a helo model couldn't ask for a better reference source. The wealth of first-hand info for helos going back 30 or more years is amazing. Now, about the Cobra/Apache thing; I have built an Apache, there are pics of it in my thread on page two, I have a 1/48 Whiskey Cobra with a detail kit. So, what I'll do is build it, then I'll set them both face to face and just let them growl at each other.

POLITICS! Sorry ... didn't mean to swear .....

I changed the topic title to prevent any chance of the "issue" we had previously.

QUOTE: Originally posted by mscottholt Randall, Got a question concerning the '64's blades. When I was a '60 driver in the old MTOE AtkBn, the Apaches in the Bn didn't have foldable blades, but something was in the works from MD called a fold kit. Have they been fielded and does it make a noticeable difference in the look of the Hub?

I'll try this again - As mentioned by Cobra Historian, yes they do have foldable blade, but no, there is no appreciable difference in the way the main rotor head appears. They have blade pins that are very slightly modified (nothing you could see when they are installed) and then they fold onto blade racks that tie on the tail boom. In 2003 there were a grand total of 24 of these kits in the Army (gratis of Uncle Cody...aka the Vice Chief of Staff of the Army who is also a 64 driver). I know he was pushing to get more of them, but it is not like they are fielded to all units, nor is the plan ever that they will be. It doesn't really make them feasible for shipborne operations either, because it still takes a crew a long time to get them hung back...however, they don't have to track and balance the blades anymore because they haven't been hung, and they were working a note so that all you had to do was a run up, not even a maintenance test flight. I believe that is approved right now. Not that any of that will help you tons if you have to pull wings or stabilators to get the load in a C5 or something, because you will still have the maint test flight requirement, just not the track and balance. Not to mention that frequently you have to pull one or two of the tail rotor blades to get an aircraft to fit somewhere you have it loaded. We dense packed three RO-ROs (ships, The Bob Hope, the Shughart and one other I don't remember) with our aircraft when we went to Iraq in 2003 and we still blew all that stuff off because we were going to war and we did have the time or place to do all the MTFs, so really, it would save a bit of time in peace time only.

Anyhow, more of an answer than you probably wanted. If there is anything else, let me know.

RIH

QUOTE: Originally posted by mscottholt Randall, Got a question concerning the '64's blades. When I was a '60 driver in the old MTOE AtkBn, the Apaches in the Bn didn't have foldable blades, but something was in the works from MD called a fold kit. Have they been fielded and does it make a noticeable difference in the look of the Hub?

You da man! Standing by .....

MTB70,
Sorry, right after I got your email I went home on leave. I'll need a bit to get snapped in and then I'll see what we can come up with.

I sure would like to do a commemorative print for some of you guys in the sandbox. I have some pictures hanging in the Pentagon. Still waitin' for some connections ...

Anyone?

Scott,

The Lot 7 and later AH-64Ds have the new blade fold system. I'm not sure if they will be retrofitted to older birds (I hope so!) but it'd make sense to do so. Apparently the first birds to get them were the 1/227th's D models before they deployed for OIF3. From what I hear, they cut down offload to first flight time from hours to a mere 20 minutes!

(gee, I hope we get em before I deploy in 08!)

Randall,
Got a question concerning the '64's blades. When I was a '60 driver in the old MTOE AtkBn, the Apaches in the Bn didn't have foldable blades, but something was in the works from MD called a fold kit. Have they been fielded and does it make a noticeable difference in the look of the Hub?

I'm going to toss in my two cents worth here. On the original topic of why the USMC chose to stay with the Cobra and not buy Apaches, is Marine doctrine. Why did the Marines not buy M-16s in Vietnam for several years until the Arny had worked out some bugs? Why did the Marines not have M-1s to take to Desert Storm in '91(they borrowed some form the Army to use there)? Why do the Marines still have Cobra's? Reliabilty and proven effectiveness answers most of the questions. In '91 the Mairnes had M1 Abrams,but no way they could get there at the time, the Army had the deployment arrangements with the Air Force. The M-1 at the time didn't fit on any landing craft the Navy had, M-60s fit. Now they fit on LCAC's. The Cobras work. They work well. The Marine system is familiar with them. The maintnence and support system is set up. The training system is set-up. The Marine Corps is small, especially in comparison to the Army. To change over to a new system is very difficult on the Mairnes. Recently while at NRMCAS I got to take a look at the V-22 ramp and hangar. They took over a CH-46 spot at New River. Now the 46's are sharing room with other aircraft. Can you imagine all the maintnence considerations that would have to be looked at to change to an AH-64? What about all the LHDs and LHAs? All the maintence facilities on the boats would have to be changed to accept Apaches as well. Hence the AH-1Z! Beware the VIPER!

Welcome to the forum RIH!

Hello All,

new to the board. Can't claim to be a historian. Can say I have flown AH-64As and Ds, both in combat environment (Bosnia, OIF) and can say that the first month in Bosnia we had a 98% FMC rate (I confess, we didn't point out every little thing that was wrong like we do in the rear, but we weren't flying Red "X"s either) and had a simliar sucess rate while we were in Iraq (with the Screaming Eagles).

As for which is better or why - there is no right answer, they are different aircraft and the services use them differently. The Corps, in my estimation (and I am not in the Corps so I am an outsider looking in) has always had that "sticker shock" thing going, and the AH-64 is expensive.

As to it's capabilities and limitation, well of course I speak only for the AH-64 when I say it has both, but it does it's job more than good enough.

As for shoot downs in Iraq, I was (as I mentioned earlier) in the 101st, and to my recollection, 1-101 didn't have any shootdowns. They had two burned to the ground due to APU fires resulting from an APU clutch failure, but no shootdowns that I remember. 3-101 (AH-64A unit) had a shoot down I think (trying to search my memory, I know they lost one, can't remember the circumstance). I had/have good friends in 2-6/6-6 and 1-227 (folks that did have a shoot down, and pilots were EPWs for a while), and 6-6 did get all shot up and all but one came home, and the majority of them were back in the sky killing stuff three days later.

Anyhow, anyone have any questions or busy building a model and need some photos of the big rig in the desert, I think I could help out there.

RIH

Mac,

A well deserved WELCOME HOME! I'm betting your three year old is finding all types of ways to wear out "Pops" now that he's home!

Remember seeing a picture in an aviation mag back in the early 70's of the Army testing Sidewinders on the end of the stub wings of a G model Snake. Wish I still had it

Carl,
Yeah, I got back in Feb. That is why I haven't been on the forum much over the last few months. I have alot less free time now that I have to deal with a three-year-old instead of a helo.

Trigger,
The dog is pretty much a priority when it is time to go out.

QUOTE: it was the soldier who gave us the freedom of speech, not the poet. It was the soldier who gave us all freedom of religion, not a religious leader. It was the soldier who gave us freedom of the press, not the reporter.

I have heard several versions of this over the years and it is one of my favorites.

To all,
I don't know who originally wrote it, but there is one version that ends with "It is the soldier's coffin that is draped by the flag so that others may have the right to burn the flag." As much as that last phrase repulses me, I have to remember that the freedom of speech is one of our most basic freedoms and I have to respect the decision of the Supreme Court. Everyone has an opinion that they want to express, just express it in a respectful manner. If someone posts something that offends you, log off for a while. Later on you can reply in a much more constructive manner or even just let it go and let the mudslinging die out.

I enjoy this forum and all of the people on it. I have learned a great deal from all of you and y'all have tolerated my rantings and misinformation. Let's not let any of our discussions get to this point again. If it does, we should just let it die or even have it removed from the forum because we are here for information and fun. Remember everybody, it all goes back to the first model that you ever built. That P-40 was the most beautiful thing that I had ever seen. I didn't see the glue fingerprints or the bad paint all over it. All that I could see was the masterpiece that I had created. That is what scale modeling is really all about.

Mac

My unsolicited 2¢...

1. Mac's right. For all out faults, this is still a great nation for those reasons he mentioned and more. Not every nation can make that claim. Nor would many governments or cultures (I seperated those two on purpose) allow us to discuss, debate and outright argue about policy in public forums. Trust me, that freedom isn't just unknown in some parts of the world, it's impossible to comprehend. If there's something that we don't like, we have the ability to change it. It's often difficult to do do, but in a lot of places such changes only come about via bloody revolts. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you've studied history beyond what our public education system calls "History" (Route memorization of names and dates does not constitute a history class. If history were taught in a proper way, more kids would be interested in it and wouldn't take daily 55 minute naps). I am curious however to know more about all these unjustified wars the US has started (if you want to discuss that, eMail me thru the site here and let's do that off-forum - the FSM boards aren't the place for that discussion).

2. I'm not comfortable about the direction some of your earlier comments seem to be heading. I hope I misunderstood them. I too have friends who are vets and I know people from the forums here who either have been deployed, currently are deployed or are scheduled to be deployed. I have a great deal of respect for all of them. Remember, it was the soldier who gave us the freedom of speech, not the poet. It was the soldier who gave us all freedom of religion, not a religious leader. It was the soldier who gave us freedom of the press, not the reporter. There have been and will be bad apples in the bunch, but I challenge you to find a profession where there are none.

3. The topic here is "Why did the USMC go with the Cobra instead of the Apache?" We got off on an interservice rivalry tangent a few days back that got pretty heated so let's not get sidetracked again. I've said my piece so I'm going to step down from my soapbox; besides, the dog is crying to be let out. Gotta have priorities...

Mac,

Did you return to CONUS yet? If so...WELCOME HOME! If not...Stay safe!

Carl

QUOTE: I really believed this country stands for something great.

[#offtopic
Politicians may make you question the fact at times, but this is the GREATEST country in the world!!! The greatness of the United States of America can be seen in the people all across this great land that make it all possible. Without the average everyday U.S. citizen, we would be nothing! Alan Greenspan doesn't make our economy work, all that he can do is change the federal lending rate to speed it up or slow it down, the people drive the economy. The House and Senate are elected by the people of this nation and serve at their pleasure.

We enjoy freedoms in the U.S. that others only dream about. There are some things that have been said in this very topic that may have gotten the writer arrested in other countries. We have the freedom to speak out against government policy, even protest without the threat of reprecussuions. We have the freedom to debate almost any subject openly (such as Cobra v. Apache). We can disagree with whomever we please and tell them so.

This nation is driven by the people. The people of this nation affect policy by electing govt. representatives that reflect their view. The people of this nation are the ones who spend the money that is the lifeblood of our economy. The people of this nation pay taxes to fund the military. As I sit down to dinner tonite, I will remember that it has been paid for by the people of this great nation.

I believe that this country still stands for the same principles that it did in 1776, the only thing that has really changed is technology.

Sorry for the soapbox
Mac

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dragonfire QUOTE: Originally posted by spongya77 QUOTE: Originally posted by Dragonfire Bottomline...bad guys beware...if you're in a vehicle or tank...you're dead. If you're running...don't bother...you'll only die tired. Are you sure you know who the bad guys are? I'm less and less sure about that. Just askin'... When you see little flashes of light and tracers coming at you, it's pretty definite who doesn't like you. Take what you read and see in press with an open mind and a grain of salt. There are a lot more good news stories over there that aren't being reported back here on the evening news...a few examples... - Iraqi military soldiers decorated by Marines for their actions while engaged with insurgents (an Iraqi pulled a wounded Marine to safety while under fire). - Iraqi Air Force C-130 pilot doesn't even tell his son what he does to keep him from worrying. As a father he said that he'd rather fight today so his son can live in safety tomorrow (sound familiar, like a phrase back from 1775). - Public Works (water and power) are more available and efficient than they were while under Saddam's regime. - Death isn't the only thing coming from our helos in Iraq...take a look at this topic http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=45194 I can see where your concern is coming from but believe us when we say that 99% our Service Members do the right thing every day over in Iraq and Afghanistan. Snake: Oorah! Semper Fi!

Don't get me wrong. I know the solders go where they are ordered to go to. (And I have vet friends who fought in Vietnam and Desert Storm.) It's just the more I know about history and the more unjustified wars the US start, the less I like what I see. (Not mentioning those reports where innocent civilians are blown up with these weapons in the Occupied Territories...) Do I like Saddam? Hell, no! But I don't like the other bloody dictators the US supported and keeps supporting either...
It just leaves a very sour taste in my mouth. I really believed this country stands for something great. And looking at these birds remind me of this. I started building Russian choppers...
Sorry for the OFF.

QUOTE: Originally posted by AH1Wsnake Bottom line is, no matter what the airframe, we've got some pretty slick pilots, aircrew, and techs flying an fighting to make the world a little safer. To all combat helicopter crews -- whether Cobra, Apache, Huey, Kiowa, Phrog, Chinook, "-53", Blackhawk, etc: Happy hunting and stay safe.

Well said Snake!

QUOTE: Originally posted by spongya77 QUOTE: Originally posted by Dragonfire Bottomline...bad guys beware...if you're in a vehicle or tank...you're dead. If you're running...don't bother...you'll only die tired. Are you sure you know who the bad guys are? I'm less and less sure about that. Just askin'...

When you see little flashes of light and tracers coming at you, it's pretty definite who doesn't like you.

Take what you read and see in press with an open mind and a grain of salt. There are a lot more good news stories over there that aren't being reported back here on the evening news...a few examples...

- Iraqi military soldiers decorated by Marines for their actions while engaged with insurgents (an Iraqi pulled a wounded Marine to safety while under fire).

- Iraqi Air Force C-130 pilot doesn't even tell his son what he does to keep him from worrying. As a father he said that he'd rather fight today so his son can live in safety tomorrow (sound familiar, like a phrase back from 1775).

- Public Works (water and power) are more available and efficient than they were while under Saddam's regime.

- Death isn't the only thing coming from our helos in Iraq...take a look at this topic
http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=45194

I can see where your concern is coming from but believe us when we say that 99% our Service Members do the right thing every day over in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Snake: Oorah! Semper Fi!

QUOTE: Originally posted by AH1Wsnake QUOTE: Originally posted by spongya77 Are you sure you know who the bad guys are? I'm less and less sure about that. Just askin'... I think you're asking the wrong folks. We're positive. Bottom line is, no matter what the airframe, we've got some pretty slick pilots, aircrew, and techs flying an fighting to make the world a little safer. To all combat helicopter crews -- whether Cobra, Apache, Huey, Kiowa, Phrog, Chinook, "-53", Blackhawk, etc: Happy hunting and stay safe.

Well said, Snake. Well said!!!!

QUOTE: Originally posted by spongya77 Are you sure you know who the bad guys are? I'm less and less sure about that. Just askin'...

I think you're asking the wrong folks.
We're positive.

Bottom line is, no matter what the airframe, we've got some pretty slick pilots, aircrew, and techs flying an fighting to make the world a little safer.
To all combat helicopter crews -- whether Cobra, Apache, Huey, Kiowa, Phrog, Chinook, "-53", Blackhawk, etc:
Happy hunting and stay safe.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dragonfire Bottomline...bad guys beware...if you're in a vehicle or tank...you're dead. If you're running...don't bother...you'll only die tired.

Are you sure you know who the bad guys are? I'm less and less sure about that.
Just askin'...

QUOTE: Originally posted by 44Mac The Corps has always been the "red headed stepchild" of the DOD budget battles and that has alot to do with what they aquire. Wonder how much they´ve spent on the Osprey?

HOOAH 44Mac... I know this battle all too well. Im the ILS/O&S (Intergrated Logistics Support/Operations and Supportablity) analyst for the H-1 Upgrades program (PMA276) and fight this battle 3 times a year (Navy budget, OSD budget, and Pres. budget).

Seems like the USMC is always the one making the sacrifices and left with less and less of a budget. Hence the Upgrade vs. Buy New AH-1Z and UH-1Y.

From my experiences in dealing with the Marines that fly these boys into battle, and the Marine ground pounders....there is nothing like seeing a AH-1 in the sky overhead. Some describe them as Angels!

The whole AH-64 v. AH-1Z argument is really a moot point. The Army opted for the 64 and they perform fine. The Marines have had the AH-1/UH-1 a long time and are comfortable with them. I dont think you could convince a Marine to go with another helo (maybe a H-60 for a UH-1 replacement).

And as far as the Osprey goes....we have a joke here in aquisition land. The V-22 will be the FIRST program to finish its production line in LRIP! I can remember being in highschool seeing the V-22 in testing and saying "thats a neat aircraft"...and that was almost 20 yrs ago!!