Best Starting Kits for Modern "Hawks" Conversions?

MH/HH-60G
I don't know much about the Italeri MH-60G kit, just the Minicraft kit. Yes, the Minicraft windsheild is one-piece. Do you have a specific Pave Hawk you're wanting to build? Try to get as much as you can about a specific bird and go from there. SOF machines change a lot so what was accurate two years ago, may not be the case right now. Salbando and I are working on a site to help out modelers of the Pave Hawk so either of us will have pix we can share in the meantime.

Out of the box, the Minicraft kit is a decent representation of an MH-60G from 1990/1991. The instructions call for installing the .50 cals in the main doors. Don't. They tried this out and it interferes with movement in and out of the birds too much. Even in a two-ship situation where one Pave Hawk is doing the pick up and the second one, armed with the extra guns is flying cover; what happens if something happens to the pick-up ship? The back-up becomes the primary and he's got a couple of guns getting in the way of things. So they don't use the .50 cals

For a late model HH-60G Pave Hawk, raid parts from CC 48031 - MH-60L Conversion set. I know, that sounds a little weird but it works. The parts you'll need are the chaff and flare dispensors, ALQ-144 IRCM, front and rear rocket plume detectors, laser detectors, misc. external antennas, vac windows (no framework), the well detailed seats and two nicely detailed miniguns with mounts, ammo cans and flex chutes. You might could even get away with using the CC cockpit and center console. They're better detailed than the original kit parts. There are radio and countermeasure racks aft for the pilot and co-pilot that will need to be scratchbuilt. Don't throw out the .50 cals as some late model HH-60Gs have used these in the gunner's windows instead of the miniguns. Again, check your references.

Painting your Pave Hawk:
http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=41257

MH-60L
MH-60L and MH-60K are two very different machines. Quick backstory, the 160th SOAR started with MH-60As (UH-60As with a FLIR turrent and NVG cockpit), then they modified UH-60Ls as a temporary solution until the purpose-built MH-60K came into service. It was intended that once the Kilos arrived, the Limas would be transferred to Reserve units. Well, the Lima is still a good machine and still with the 160th. They've been upgraded over the years and rumor has it they're getting an engine upgrade in the near future that'll improve their performance over the Kilo.

Limas can also be used as DAPs (Direct Action Penatrator) and are sometimes called AH-60Ls when in this configuration. Basically what this is, they atttach shortened ESSS wings (one pylon per wing instead of the normal two) and hang rocket pods, Hellfire and/or the M230 chain gun (the one used on the Apache and the subject of CC set 48034). The miniguns are pointed forward and controlled by the pilot or co-pilot instead of the gunners. When in this configuration, they're not carrying troops.

Revell actually makes a MH-60L in 1/48 scale. I haven't built it, but I do want a Lima in that scale. If you can't get your hands on one of those, then a Minicraft UH-60L or MH-60K kit with CC set 48031 will work. You'll need to get 48034 if you want to finish it as a DAP.

MH-60K
Minicraft makes a MH-60K kit, but it's got a lot of accuracy problems, especially around the nose. That's where CC 48002 comes into play. It's the same kit as their UH-60L, but with a lot of extra parts.

Painting your Nightstalkers:
http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?page=1&TOPIC_ID=41698
This thread started off about rotor tips, then got seriously sidetracked before coming back around to rotor tips. Good news is, the sidetrack was Nightstalker color schemes.

Hi Trigger

Thanks for the TON of info, really gives me a much clearer picture.

I'm kinda leaning towards a MH-60L DAP armed to the teeth. I had the RoG MH-60L but that ended up in the garbage bin.(long story)

I'm thinking of going with a Pavehawk painted FS36118. I'm confused as I've seen recent photos on www.af.mil where there are Pavehawks with different noses, are these different versions or are they all MH-60Gs?

John

No problem dude, glad I could help.

If you want to get technical, they're all HH-60Gs. That's the same thing as an MH-60G, but they were all redesignated HH- when they were assigned to ACC and ANG units from AFSOC. There are a few HH-60Gs based at Nellis AFB that have the radar radome positioned top and center of the nose (just like on a DAP) instead of offset and underneath. Sal can explain why top/center is better better than I can; I think it's a FOD thing. Some of the Nellis birds use .50 cals instead of miniguns too. But that nose configuration is a Nellis exclusive.

Many Pavehawks are coming back from depot don't have the HF antenna (towel rack on the tail) as it's been replaced by SATCOM and the new outward canting plume detectors are installed on the upper nose.  We're also starting to get our external gun and ammo mounts installed.

Some HH-60Gs carry an ALE-47 "bucket" on each main gear sponson (firing down). The latest Block 152 upgrade gives a better M130 dispenser. There are two more chaff/flare dispensers on both sides of the tail.

I've got more info on the Block 152 upgrades at home that I'll post tonight.

Special Thanks to Salbando for providing all this info!

Yeah, the DAPs are pretty cool. I've got two of the 1/35 kits. One will be finished at Super-62 (that was the helo that inserted Gordon and Shughart that day) and the other will be a more recent mod with the full-size ESSS wing installed (crap, I forgot to mention that MH-60Ls do sometimes carry the big wings) and she'll be armed to the teeth! Besically I want it to outgun Gino's DAP!

So the majority of HH-60Gs have the standard nose meaning that I don't have to do any "nose conversions" on my kit. I'm also guessing that the Gs don't use the ESSS wings, since I've never seen a photo of one with them.

With regards to DAP loadouts, what is a standard loadout(if there is such a thing in the 160th)? I've just finished Mike Durants book and in there they only used miniguns and rocket pods but that was in 1990/91, things have changed I'm guessing.

The CC DAP weapons set, what does it contain and how many of each weapon?

Sorry for all the questions but I want this "project" to turn out perfectly.

No worries dude. Heaven knows how many times I've asked Salbando similar questions and I welcome the opportunity to pay it forward.

The only thing you'll have to do to the nose is make the cutout underneath for the FLIR turrent rig. That's a square cutout and no big deal. You are correct in that Pave Hawks don't use the ESSS wings. They have the stubs, but that's it. In fact, they moved the nav lights from the sponsons to the stubs when they put the chaff/flare dispensers on the sponsons. The ESSS wings and tanks get in the way of the window gunner's azimuth and with the internal tank and air-to-air refueling, they don't need external tanks. I've got a pic showing some of the Block 152 mods on a Pave Hawk that I'll get posted later today when I get a free moment.

They miniguns on a DAP were the window mounted ones, only pointed forward and controled by the flight crew (remember the problem he and had in ODS with the trigger not working on SCUD hunts?). Since most of the time DAPs fly with the short wings (half the span of a stock ESSS wing and with only one pylon), they can only carry up to: 2x 19-shot rocket pods; 8x Hellfire (2 racks of 4 missiles); 1x M230 chain gun (since all the black boxes and ammo drum for it takes up so much room inside) or any combination of the aforementioned. I've seen pix of DAPs flying with the stock wing (2 pylons per side), but I think that's rare. The CC DAP weapons set contains a single M230 cannon with cradle, ammo box with flex chutes, 19 shot rocket pod, ESSS stub wings, pylons, sway braces and cabin avionics for systems control.

Okay, here are a couple of shots illustrating late model HH-60Gs (with Block152 Mods)




I'll post/link to more as I dig them up...

Thx for the pics and pointers.

Why is the ammo attached to the outside of the helo? Isn't that quite risky if it gets hit by a bullet?

Do the DAPs fly with the cabin doors closed or open?

I noticed that Gino's DAP had the M230 attached and the doors open but I wasn't sure if that was out of personal preference or necessity.

They put the ammo cans outside for space. Once you put in a couple of FEs, a couple of PJs, the radio and countermeasures controls, everyones' gear, a Stokes litter and a patient and that cabin fills up fast. So to get some of the space back, they moved the cans and mounts outside the aircraft.

As far as risk goes, it's no more risky than where they were before. The skin of the helicopter offers no ballistic protection so it doesn't matter if the can is inside or outside the airframe. What happens when SA fires hits a box of minigun ammo? I dunno. Anyone know what'll happen?

Pix I've seen, doors are closed; but DAPs can fly with doors open or closed, it doesn't matter. Gino put a lot of effort into his DAP interior and wanted to show it off (and rightfully so I might add - it looks great!)

Trigger, how hard is it to turn the Kilo into a Pavehawk?

My usual online shop only has K kits, no Gs. Towerhobbies has the G and K but the postage is alot higher. Towerhobbies also takes about month to get here, the Holland shop takes 12 days.

Both sites have the 1/48 MH-6, any good?

Heck at this rate I might as well do a K, L-DAP and LB and have the whole 160th. I can just add the G for some variety.

If you're dealing with the Minicraft kits (sounds like you are), then you're fine. You just install some parts that aren't called for in the instructions and don't install a bunch of others. The Kilo kit just adds parts to the existing Black Hawk kit so the same comments I made earlier about building an accurate Pave Hawk still apply.

Your only problem will be decals, but I can help out with that. I've laid out a graphics file for Pave Hawk markings. Right now it's for the AK ANG, but can be converted to another unit with relative ease.

The 1/48 MH-6 kit is really a Hughes MD500D Defender. With some minor alterations you can convert it to a good MH-6J. One of your "neighbors," QpH1029 just got thru doing such a conversion for the Attack Helo GB.

Unfortunately, even with a Kilo, DAP and Little Bird, you still won't have the entire 160th represented... there's still the MH-47E/G Chinook. Now if only someone will make a 1/48 MH-47...

Spot on Grant. The only thing I'd add is that with the new exterior mounted ammo bins and gun mounts, it's much more feasible to mount .50 cals in the windows. They're great in the sandbox for longer stand-off suppression and give somewhat of a hard target capability.