Need help: true to life or censor

I would say "It was what it was" True to life would be my opinion. I not a big fan of the"politically correct" mind set anyhow. Tell it like it is! (or was) Pete Brown

Same thing I said in your post in Dio forum. Screw the Politically Correct modellers who can't stand the sight of blood and want every model to show a bunch of happy soldiers eating sausage or something.

I'm not one for political correctness, but.....

The best dioramas tell a story. What story are you trying to tell? Is it that war is bloody and gory? Or are you trying to tell a story of the courage of the soldiers who fought and died on the peak? I think if you make it too gory, your story will be lost on most people, especially if you plan to display it at a general model show or contest. They won't look at it long enough to get past the gore. If the gore is kept to a minimum, they may take away more of the story. And maybe even remember it.

IMHO. (And my apologies is this was covered in the dios forum, I haven't looked at your post there.)

Phil

I don't believe that situation was really all that gory, was it? Obviously soldiers died, which is bad, but it's not like it was a bomb going off or something. Since you are including the helicopter, I assume you'll have them near it... I think it's totally acceptable to have a few casualties laying by the helo. People do scenes like that all the time.

Some people might not like it because it's a portrayal of a situation where we didn't do so good. I think that might bother some people more then the actual gory part. Americans don't like losing.

Dave
-DPD Productions - Custom Scanner, MURS, & Ham Antennas-
http://eje.railfan.net/dpdp/

To say truth I was thinking of building the dioram of crash site too with my Super 61 at the very beginning. Then I've read a lot about the real operation events, whatched the BHD movie couple more times, got in touch with real participants, spoke with other modelers about "bloody dio's" and here is my opinion:
I agree that truth is truth and it shouldn't be covered or censored but... just for myself I desided that if it is possible to avoid blood scene I will do my best to do so, especialy in Super 61's case (Cliff Walcott's body was almost split in two by the instrument panel and the other pilot's head was smashed with "somthing" (piece of rotor blade?)...
So I am not against showing the corps and injured soldiers on diorams but I think there should be some limit in bloodeness... otherwise we will end up using figure kits straight from the box without gluing the body parts together

Andy

Limits off gore and such when depicted in a diorama are often a double edge sword. I certainly wouldnt use the word censor and would gladly take to the side of the most offensive scenes ever presented against such censored material. I dont have to like something to believe that it had a right to be displayed. That said, who are you trying to please with this diorama? As I build all my models to my taste I only care what I think about the finished product. In have no taste for such blood and gore... I see to much just doing my job and dont need to be reminded about it in my models. However its your model and if you like the idea of true to life accuaracy then bloody it up... I can assure you it was a very gruesome scene having heard first hand accounts of the ordeal. I would'nt worry about doing the soldiers in that scene an injustice though by toning down the accuracy though. Most Im sure most feel the same way I do about the gore in real life and not needing to see it again.... What pisses Soldiers off more than anything is official reports that fail to inform people of what really happened and puts a political twist on the events....

I have to agree with Phil. Think long and hard about the story that you want to tell and who you want to tell it to. Be sure that it is accurate based on the information available. If you have to interpret anything, be sure that it is consistent with the facts. Once you have all of this together, plan your dio and lay it out. Don't avoid the blood and guts, but I would recommend to use only what is necessary to tell the story (remember Scarlet's smile in Gone with the Wind?....you know the one......the morning after the wedding.). A little bit goes a long way and allows the viewer to fill in the story. I think that too much actually is a distraction. Think of BHD and how well they portrayed the battle and the wounds that go with it without making it a blood bath.

No matter how you do this someone will complain about the way that you did it. The bottom line is to be sure that you are proud to say that you did it no matter who is asking.

And that is my .

Mac

Here's my 2 pennys worth. First, after reading "Not A Good Day to Die", I don't believe that the area was tremendously "gore" ridden. Most of the casualties were from bullets although some came from RPGs and mortars. There was a lot of blood around, especially on the ramp and right close to the ramp. Second, as an option, do the dirama as set just after everybody is "rescued" from the Takur Ghar. This way, all you have to model is the aircraft and surroundings. Rangers, Seals, CCTs, PJs and 160th SOAR guys fought with honor and extreme valor in the face of very bad odds.

I've seen in most of the dioramas that depict blood and gore to be kind of unrealistic looking since usually the blood is'nt in scale.What I mean by this is that you'll find that sometimes the modeler will go a little overboard with the blood where it looks like the wounded bled out twenty pints of bood.Plus the fact that blood as soon as it hits the air starts darkening and clotting and usually is'nt bright red for long.And with this dio you'll have to remember that there was dirt,sand and troops dirty boots treading all over ths blood.
Blood on dirt or sand does'nt look like blood it looks like an oil spill,at least in this scale.
So there's nothing wrong with blood and gore in a dio as long as it's done right to scale in my opinion.
We also have to be very respectfull though.You never know if one of the crews family members or someone that has lost someone in simular cercimstances could by chance view a dio like this.

First be true to yourself.
Then be true to the subject.
Do you feel you have to have the "gore"? Or could you just get by with the impression of bloodshed? (You gonna do a modern slasher or an Alfred Hitchcock?)
As for me, I would rather depict an act of heroism and survival rather than death and mayhem, but as I stated first, be true to yourself.

Don

Ok, let me say that from the accounts I read of the battle (Sean Naylor's "Not a Good Day to Die" and Malcolm MacPherson's "Robert's Ridge") it really wasn't like Omaha Beach or Black Hawk Down kind of gory. The kind of gore I'm looking at including are spilled blood in the cockpit and cabin floor (both are black so the blood would look more like a wet spot than anything else), blood in the snow at the edge of the helicopter's ramp (unfortunately this would be quite red but appropriate) and blood on the soldier's clothing (subtle and quite dark). All wounds would be true to life (nobody was blown up and the most gruesome wound was the pilot, CWO Calvert, who nearly lost his right hand, but since his postion at the moment I want to depict would place him in a hard to see area of the forward cabin immediately behind the cockpit). I'm not looking to show the horror of war with a bunch of torn-up corpses. The gore is only there to add weight to the story of these men who were suddenly thrust into this situation and against incredible odds, they succeeded.
What I'm currently thinking about portraying is the minute just after the helicopter crashed. It would be too much to describe in detail what exactly would be happening in the diorama, but I aim to be true to the story and to life. I am also planning to add a small description of the battle to the side of the diorama in case the audience is curious about how it started and ended.
However, thank you all for giving your thoughts and feelings on the subject. I will take everybody's advice to heart on this project. Please feel free to comment further.

please tell us more about your diorama and show the process pics! )))))
It really sounds like a great build!

Andy

tell it like it is
i have seen many dio's and yes there are some that portray the blood/guts but for the most part the show politically correct
i am an other that hates politically correct

I guess my question is how do you know what it was like? Unless you were there, saw some detailed pictures, or read some very detailed accounts, the most you might now is where (what body part) some people were wounded. You wouldn't know if the wound was exposed, whether or not they were covered with ponchos, how much blood there was, where they were laying in relation to the aircraft or anything else for that matter. So, in a sense, you are making it all up and it isn't true to life. If that is the case why assume the worse instead of the best (bodies covered, wounds covered, no blood showing, etc.

As modellers we are very reluctant to make up details regarding the aircraft when we don't know them. eg, serial numbers, paint schemes, etc - I don't know why this should be any different.

I wouldn't call this "true to life or censor" (unless you were on that hilltop and have a good mental picture of it). I would call this "I'm guessing it was really gory" or "I'm guessing it didn't look as bad as it was."

You say you don't want to "dishonor the memories" of the soldiers, but you want to show them dead. I'm not sure I understand how showing them shot up, bleeding, dying and dead -- a truly grotesque, horrible and, ultimately, private scene -- honors them.

Also, I'm not sure the word "censor" is appropriate here. It's more a matter of "taste." Shep Paine, who knows a thing or two about dioramas, says in his book on the subject that if you're going to show casualties, it should not be overdone and kept within the bounds of good taste. Yeah, war is horrible and it's nice to show "real life," but few battlefield wounds are as neat and clean as a simple hole in the abdomen and a little blood. How many folks here have modeled a soldier cut in two with his guts hanging out? Or somebody with half his head blown off?

It's not a matter of "political correctness" (whatever that dopey wingnut-invented term means anymore) but rather one of taste. Some artists paint scenes that I find grotesque and vulgar, but others see it as art. If that's the kind of thing you want to do, then do it. If you croak in a car wreck by hurtling through the windshield, would you want someone else modeling your mangled body?

I'm not sure you honor the memories of people by showing them in their final, desperate moments of life.

I appreciate these comments, but think about this. The movie 'Black Hawk Down' had the full support of the Army, many former soldiers of that battle helped with the movie (Rangers fast-roped from MH-60Ls, Kieth Jones recreated his rescue of a Delta operator at the first crash site, the soldiers talked to the actors firsthand and trained them, etc., all in an effort to get the movie as accurate as possible) yet the movie depicted the grotesque final moments of Jamie Smith, it showed the mangled body of a Delta operator blown in half by an RPG and a severed hand laying on the ground, etc., etc. This diorama will have none of that. In my research, the Battle for Roberts' Ridge wasn't all that bloody. No, I was not there. No, I don't know exactly how every soldier was positioned during the time I want to depict. No, I don't know exactly how every wound looked. However, I have a good idea as to approxiamately how bodies were positioned or how the wounds looked. The most important part of any diorama is that it tells a story. The "true to life" nature of my diorama, I believe, will add to its story.

of course wounded and dead but not with body parts everywhere is a good compromise
i mean i could model my cousin and his squad from pictures he has and that would be un called for
it would show him and his squad with the heads of n vietnamese on their belts hung by the hair again un called for

This sounds like a very challenging diorama.. The terrain and the deep snow etc will be a challenge. Yes contrary to some of the posts here it was a rather bloody affair.
The LZ was racked with gunfire from an AC130 and F-15s before dawn and several Taliban were dead as well as Neil Roberts and several Rangers and PJs were also killed or wounded and there was plenty of blood . If you read the Books you would know Razor 01 was hulked out and was a rather bloody mess literally.
The book "Roberts Ridge" it's the only true story of what happened there on that Day.. The book Not a good Day to Die is another good reference about the event but that author was not given interviews by the DevGru SEALS that were involved and the story has more Army censored BS than facts. Veterans of that battle have told me "Roberts Ridge" is spot on. It was a bloody LZ . Maybe not the area in close proximity of Razor 03 but the ridge top and bunker areas were strewn with dead and pieces of dead bad guys.
Unless you plan on doing almost headless SpecOps guys and bits and pieces of Taliban dudes in the bloodstained snow and a few severly chewed up Chinooks I think a static model of Razor 01, 02, or 03 with a Trident, a Ranger pin, and AF PJ pin on a realistic base with a 160th SOAR Patch would look just great and serve the purpose of Honoring these Men just fine. That's what I did anyway. I have had the Honor of knowing Petty Officer Neil "FiFi" Roberts and 4 of his shipmates that were involved.
So I think your idea to do this is a great idea. The realistic part is wholely up to you but like someone on this tread said it could be a very sensative issue to some.
I don't know how anyone who reads Roberts Ridge could come away from that book thinking that was not a Bloody firefight.. It was a Hornets nest and a near run thing for those who were there. That book was also a fine way to Honor those who fought there .
Many more books will be written about the first years operations in Afganistan now that the censors have lightened up and the Veterans get out and are free to tell their storys not what the press was writing for sure..

My plan is to model the area immediately around a crashed Razor 01 to limit the size of the diorama. Yes, the battle itself was bloody and very gory. That said, I am planning to depict the helicopter in the minute after it was shot down. This way, the gore is confined to the cabin and the ramp. The black floor and cockpit will disguise the blood as being a "wet" spot. The only touchy areas are the uniforms (I think I can still depict it yet hide the wound at the same time) and the snow at the base of the ramp. No Taliban/ Al Queda bodies will be in the scene possibly with one exception (and he was shot, not blown apart).
I have toyed with the idea of a TF 160 MH-47E sitting on the flight line at Bagram with some Rangers or SEALs boarding, but it seemed too much like a monument.