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Interesting facts about vortex ring state on V-22...

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  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Pacific Northwest
Posted by MBT70 on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:48 PM
This is an excellent site and posting here is a real privilege, but I'm apt to sympathize with Matt on this issue. Most of the dialog in the article he presented echoes some opinions I posted about the V-22 a couple months ago. I, too, was beset by some very significant negative vibes and elected to simply drop the subject, rather than elicit continued argument. I think information about the V-22, as with any other aircraft we strive to model in detail, is relevant here to some degree. Take a few minutres and check how much non-modeling dialog is expended on Chinooks, Cobras, Hueys and everything else here. The V-22 should not be a sacred cow ...
Life is tough. Then you die.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 17, 2005 1:12 PM
I for one appreciated the post. Not everyone comes here just for modeling.

Thank you phantom for the information.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 17, 2005 11:03 AM
I don't like arguing in private. If you've got something to say, say it in front of the world. I'm not mad, I think you're reaction was strange. You appear to have a burr under your saddle regarding me, and I think it's humorous....your initial reaction made no logical sense, and your following replies make no logical sense. You think I'm childish, I think you're childish...........who cares? Have a nice day. matthew.d.martens@boeing.com
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Valrico, FL
Posted by HeavyArty on Friday, October 14, 2005 10:09 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by phantom works

strange indeed........


Sorry you don't like me pointing out that your post has nothing to do with modeling. Some of the others that you spammed actually do and were quite relavant. You do look quite childish in spamming all the other posts in your little temper tantrum though. Hope you feel better now.


By the way, if you had the guts to attach an email address to your profile, this would have been private and not posted for all to see. Good job.

Gino P. Quintiliani - Field Artillery - The KING of BATTLE!!!

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"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, October 14, 2005 3:37 PM
strange indeed........
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Valrico, FL
Posted by HeavyArty on Friday, October 14, 2005 10:45 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by phantom works

strange reply............I had the impression there was a lot of pilots on this forum and any and all information of this nature would be fair game. Didn't realize the line I crossed....


No line crossed, just trying to keep the site relevant to modeling. Plenty of chat boards and forums out there for pilots and helos as well. Since it is a modeling site, lets stick to modeling relevant issues. If someone has a question, fine, but no need to just copy info from other sites for the sake of copying and reposting it.

Gino P. Quintiliani - Field Artillery - The KING of BATTLE!!!

Check out my Gallery: https://app.photobucket.com/u/HeavyArty

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, October 14, 2005 10:26 AM
strange reply............I had the impression there was a lot of pilots on this forum and any and all information of this nature would be fair game. Didn't realize the line I crossed....
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Valrico, FL
Posted by HeavyArty on Friday, October 14, 2005 9:56 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by leemitcheltree

Thanks for the info - very interesting.
Yes, the post really had noting to do with modeling - but increasing your knowledge is a good thing. Remain intellectually stagnant and you risk losing the ability to assimilate data and devise your own opinion on matters.......learn and live, I say.


I agree that increasing your knowledge is good, however, I come here for modeling info, not to find out neat info about the V-22 Osprey. There are plenty of other sites, like Global Security.org, where you copied the above from, that have that info on them.

Gino P. Quintiliani - Field Artillery - The KING of BATTLE!!!

Check out my Gallery: https://app.photobucket.com/u/HeavyArty

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Washington State
Posted by leemitcheltree on Friday, October 14, 2005 9:02 AM
Thanks for the info - very interesting.
Yes, the post really had noting to do with modeling - but increasing your knowledge is a good thing. Remain intellectually stagnant and you risk losing the ability to assimilate data and devise your own opinion on matters.......learn and live, I say.

Cheers, LeeTree
Remember, Safety Fast!!!

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, October 14, 2005 2:21 AM
Thanx for the info.
CFR
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Thursday, October 13, 2005 5:55 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by HeavyArty

Yes, interesting reading, but what does it have to do with modeling? Don't think it will occur on the Italeri 1/48 V-22 model.


Probably won't, but that could explain why that old 1/72 Osprey kit I had hit the floor so hard when it fell off the shelf.
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Valrico, FL
Posted by HeavyArty on Thursday, October 13, 2005 4:58 PM
Yes, interesting reading, but what does it have to do with modeling? Don't think it will occur on the Italeri 1/48 V-22 model.

Gino P. Quintiliani - Field Artillery - The KING of BATTLE!!!

Check out my Gallery: https://app.photobucket.com/u/HeavyArty

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell

  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: Philomath, OR, USA
Posted by knight667 on Thursday, October 13, 2005 4:37 PM
Fascinating! Thanks for posting!
John "The only easy day was yesterday." - US Navy SEALs "Improvise. Adapt. Overcome." - US Marine Corp. "I live each day/Like it's my last/...I never look back" - from "I'm A Rocker" by Judas Priest
  • Member since
    November 2005
Interesting facts about vortex ring state on V-22...
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 13, 2005 3:36 PM
off of globalsecurity.org

V-22 Osprey
Vortex Ring State (VRS)
The side-by-side rotor configuration of V-22 is susceptible to asymmetric
onset of Vortex Ring State (VRS), brought on by descending too quickly. The
one-rotor-in/one-rotor-out conditions results in large rolling moments and
departure from controlled flight. Such a characteristic is fundamental and
cannot be remedied by minor design changes. The only near-term solution is
to restrict operations to avoid proximity to VRS region. V-22 advocates say
V-22 pilots can escape vortex ring state by tilting the rotors forward to
get out of helicopter mode.

Following the deployment aboard USS ESSEX, the Multi-Service Operational
Test Team (MOTT) deployed to Marine Corps Air Station (MCAS) Yuma, AZ, to
conduct a number of tactically representative missions. A key element of
this evaluation involved the participation on April 8, 2000 of all four
OPEVAL MV-22 aircraft in a simulated, non-combatant evacuation mission
conducted by Marine Aviation Weapons and Tactics Squadron One (MAWTS-1).

This realistic mission ended in disaster with the crash of LRIP aircraft
Number 14 and the loss of life of the four-man aircrew and the 15 Marines
being transported aboard the aircraft. The mishap investigation determined
that the cause of the crash was the aircraft flying outside the flight
envelope identified in the Naval Aviation Training and Operating Procedures
Standardization (NATOPS) Manual. During the last minutes of the flight, the
aircraft exceeded 2,000 feet per minute rates of descent (250 percent
greater than the NATOPS warning) at below 30 KTAS with the nacelles tilted
all the way back to 95 degrees incidence. The high sink rate at low airspeed
most likely caused one or both of the proprotors to enter an aerodynamic
phenomenon known as Vortex Ring State (VRS), wherein a loss of lift occurs
that cannot be cured by increasing power. Vortex Ring State can occur in all
rotary-wing aircraft under similar conditions of low airspeed and high sink
rate. No mechanical or electrical failures in the aircraft were found to
contribute to the mishap.

The crash of this MV-22 during OPEVAL focused attention on the V-22's
handling qualities near the region of the flight envelope subject to the
phenomenon known as the vortex ring state (VRS). The VRS condition is often
referred to by pilots as "settling with power" or "power settling." These
terms are piloting interpretations of the usual flight characteristics of a
rotorcraft operating at or near the VRS, but are not descriptors of the
aerodynamic flow state at the rotor.

All rotorcraft are potentially subject to the effects of the VRS, which is
nominally encountered at low airspeed and high rates of descent. The terms
"low" and "high" are not absolute, but are relative to the down-wash
velocity of airflow generated by the rotor. This down-wash velocity depends
on the weight of the rotorcraft and the density altitude at which the
rotorcraft operates. The basic VRS phenomenon manifests itself as a
substantial increase in the power required to overcome the additional
aerodynamic losses (induced losses) as the rotor descends into its own wake.
Entry into the VRS decreases the amount of excess power available at the
rotor(s). In the vortex ring state, the thrust generated by the rotor
fluctuates up to +/- 30 percent even though the flight controls (throttle
and collective/cyclic pitch) are held constant. In a single rotor
helicopter, these fluctuations mostly manifest as high-amplitude, low
frequency vertical vibrations (buffeting). A high piloting workload is also
necessary to maintain equilibrium flight in or near the VRS.

The basic aerodynamic mechanisms of the VRS are common to all rotorcraft.
However, the probable mechanism that initiates the sudden and potentially
catastrophic departure mode in the MV-22 is unique to side-by-side rotor
configured aircraft. Qualitatively, this phenomenon is understandable in
terms of rotor flow field dynamics, however, other factors may be involved.
For example, on the V-22 the proximity of the wing to the rotors means that
the airflow state over and above the wing under steep descending flight
conditions may have some impact on the rotor flow. Whether this aggravates
the already adverse effects in the VRS or otherwise is not yet known because
no experiments have been done to study the problem and a completely adequate
aerodynamic theory is not yet available to describe the complexities
associated with this type of interacting flow.

In the tiltrotor V-22, the onset of VRS can occur in the proprotor on one
side without the other side losing lift. In such a case, the aircraft tends
to roll sharply into the side that first loses lift, resulting in large,
unexpected bank angles, followed immediately by a rapid dropping of the nose
of the aircraft and a steep dive. At low altitudes, there may be no
opportunity for recovery. In conventional single or tandem-rotor
helicopters, the effect of VRS is generally a wings-level rapid, unexpected
increase in the rate of descent. In either the tiltrotor or conventional
helicopter, VRS onset at low altitude may present no opportunity for safe
recovery. Recovery from VRS in conventional helicopters, altitude
permitting, is generally to reduce power and lower the nose attitude of the
aircraft, regaining forward airspeed and permitting reapplication of power
to stop or limit the rate of descent and minimize altitude loss. In the
V-22, upon recognition of entry into VRS, the pilot must also respond
immediately, in this case by reducing the nacelle incidence to below
approximately 80 degrees (a much more powerful anti-VRS input than lowering
the nose) while at least momentarily reducing power. When forward airspeed
begins increasing, reapplication of power is possible to minimize altitude
loss.

The consequence of the asymmetrical AoA effect is that if the aircraft is
operating near the VRS, the rotor on the side of the yaw direction may enter
more deeply into the VRS. By virtue of the lower operating angle of attack
on the other rotor, this other rotor will move further away from, or outside
of, the VRS conditions. This asymmetrical VRS phenomenon, which is unique to
side-by-side rotor configurations, will have the initial resultant effect of
inducing a large rolling moment in the yaw direction. If the pilot is able
to respond fast enough, the response will probably be a roll control input
to counter the initial rolling moment. On the V-22, this requires lateral
stick control inputs, increasing collective pitch (power) to the rotor "into
the roll" - that is to the rotor operating deeper in the VRS. Because of the
high losses associated with rotor operation in the VRS, the excess power
available at this rotor is already marginal and so the normal pilot control
inputs may be unable to effectively counter the induced rolling moments.
Therefore, the roll will continue, and at low altitude the result will be
catastrophic.

Furthermore, throughout the maneuver into the VRS, large thrust fluctuations
are present on the rotors. Therefore, on the V-22, because of the
side-by-side rotor configuration, an additional result of operating in or
near to the VRS is out-of-phase fluctuations of thrust on the two rotors.
Any unsynchronized rotor thrust fluctuations between the two rotors will
always precipitate rolling moments and further compound any asymmetric
aerodynamic conditions already induced on the aircraft.

In addition to direct yaw inputs or other perturbations that may change the
rotor AoA at or near the VRS, a similar scenario (one rotor going deeper
into the VRS than the other) could be produced or aggravated by a spatially
confined gust of wind or by the effects of another aircraft's wake, again
resulting in an asymmetrical aerodynamic effect on the two rotors and an
induced rolling response. If at these asymmetrical VRS operating conditions
the pilot requests either near maximum power (increase in collective pitch
on both rotors) or a counter roll command (differential collective between
the rotors), then the control inputs may be very ineffective and the roll
will continue. The potential significance of this characteristic of the V-22
cannot be overstated given that the amphibious medium lift mission typically
requires large numbers of aircraft operating in close proximity.

While the possible existence of VRS in the V-22 was known when flight limits
for OPEVAL were established, the unusual attitude following entry into VRS
was not expected. This condition occurs very rapidly with little to no
warning to the pilots. When flown in compliance with NATOPS WARNING limits
and with adequate training, susceptibility to VRS is nil. Prior to the
mishap, the NATOPS limit was no greater than 800 fpm rates of descent
permitted below 40 KTAS. After the cause of the mishap became more apparent,
that limitation was modified to be more restrictive, becoming no greater
than 800 fpm anytime the nacelles were tilted above 80 degrees incidence.
The remainder of OPEVAL was flown within the latter limits, and no further
incidents occurred. The OPEVAL evaluators concluded after completion that
the limitations did not lessen the operational effectiveness of the V-22 in
any way:

Following this mishap, Naval Air Systems Command initiated a developmental
flight test program involving an extensive sequence of tests to explore the
conditions, well beyond the authorized flight envelope, in which the MV-22
might be susceptible to vortex ring state or other loss-of-lift phenomenon,
as well as prevention and recovery techniques.

To avoid the potential of a catastrophic VRS effect on the MV-22, the Navy
imposed limits on the descent rate allowed when operating the MV-22 in
helicopter mode. In addition, an important, extensive, developmental flight
test program is underway to examine the flight conditions that involve a
danger of encountering significant VRS conditions. This testing may lead to
the development of a cockpit warning system capable of detecting aircraft
proximity to the VRS domain and providing a pilot warning to that effect. An
alternative may be to explore the possibility of modifying the flight
control software such as to preclude dangerous flight control inputs in
susceptible situations.

Of particular note, testing found no uncommanded responses within the
original 800/40 NATOPS Warning, or within the revised 800/80 Limitation.
Testing replicated the uncommanded roll characteristic when flying well
outside of the NATOPS limits. The encounters occurred only at elevated rates
of descent (approximately 2000 fpm or greater at 40 knots or less) that were
well beyond the fleet restrictions. In addition, testing to date suggests
that should a pilot inadvertently exceed published limitations, there may be
no easily recognizable warning that the aircraft is nearing the danger
zone-and some flight control inputs; e.g., a roll or yaw command, may
trigger an asymmetric thrust condition. Such a situation can easily be
envisioned in flight conditions that place a high workload demand on the
pilots; e.g., night or low visibility, system malfunctions, hostile fire,
etc., should a breakdown of crew coordination or loss of situational
awareness occur. Thus, the first indication the pilot may receive that he
has encountered this difficulty is when the aircraft initiates an
uncommanded, uncontrollable roll. High rate-of-descent (HROD) testing
continued to define the VRS phenomenon.

The V-22 has the potential to enter high rates of descent at high nacelle
angles with low airspeed. This condition occurs very rapidly with little to
no warning to the pilots. In simulation at 95 degrees nacelle, 39 KCAS, and
0 feet per minute rate of descent (ROD), pulling the thrust control lever
(TCL) full aft caused an immediate descent exceeding the 800 feet per minute
NATOPS WARNING. If forward TCL is applied at this point, an uncontrolled
flight condition is possible. Within 3 seconds, the simulator exhibited in
excess of 3,000 fpm ROD.
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