Whats the bast ATTACK Helicopter.

I'll follow Grant's lead and volunteer also

Great idea glider... But while an experienced pilot's perspective is important and necessary in this experiment, what is the control? What is the constant, not the variable, in the equation?

What we'll also need here an impartial view from someone who has flown in neither the Apache nor the Cobra (so as to avoid any personal prejudices against either type) to spend equal time in the front seat evaluating the two (say 2-3 dozen flights). It'll be a demanding task with a lot of responsibility since bragging rights for one of the communities are in the balance. Now, I would never ask anyone to do something that I'm not prepared to do myself, so I volunteer to ride in the front seat.

Now, when can we start?

Alright, there's only one way to settle this. One of you Snake drivers come on over to Taji so I can hop in the seat and do some hunting in it myself. It might take two or three (dozen) flights.

So many aircraft, so few opportunities to fly them all...

Think I see a couple of bias answers(quess you guy's have the right though)

QUOTE: Originally posted by supercobra Of course the best attack helicopter is the Bell AH-1W SuperCobra (in the humble unbiased opinion of someone who has flown them for the last 17 years).

Randie,
Sorry dude...one track mind. That's the other thing I love about this forum...no pulled punches and lots of kidding around.

granddadjohn summed it up best.

Apache all the way

Of course the best attack helicopter is the Bell AH-1W SuperCobra (in the humble unbiased opinion of someone who has flown them for the last 17 years).

QUOTE: Originally posted by grandadjohn not a problem, I come here to learn from others, to help when I can and to have a good time

I couldn't have said it better, John.

not a problem, I come here to learn from others, to help when I can and to have a good time

Thanks guys

what's this got to do with modelling?

(hehehehe, couldn't resist)

QUOTE: Originally posted by salbando But I will draw the line at "intercourse".

Sal!!! English lesson for the day. Give me a 4 letter word, ending in 'k', that means intercourse. No, no, no!!!!! Not that one!!!!! It's TALK, silly!!!

Andy,
Not at all. Spirited comments on this forum are the norm, and we can all learn from each other...your MH-60L amazes me!

Don't sweat it.

But I will draw the line at "intercourse".

))))
I truly hope that this difference in our opinions on particular subject will not effect our comunication and intercourse. I am really thankfull to all of you guys, and its a great pleasure for me to be here on this forum with you.
You helped me a lot - and I'll never forget this.
Sorry if I said somthing wrong - I did not mean to offence anybody

Andy

Andy,

Firstly, this is a friendly forum, and even though we may "argue" believe me it is intended in the best of spirits. As Sal has pointed out, a lot of us have firsthand knowledge of the aircraft we speak of (Glider's got much more Apache knowledge then I do, since I haven't started flying them just yet!)

I frankly appreciate the differing points of view on this and other forums. It allows me to see how others think, how they view my particular points of view, and makes me think about why I feel the way I do. Always a good thing.

But, you're right. The question was "which is the BEST", and that certainly is a question of opinion. Yours is no more or less valid than mine is!

QUOTE: Originally posted by salbando Besides..."Which is the best attack helicopter?" That's an east one. It's the one that comes up on your freq. answering the call for fire support when the fhit has hit the san.

Amen to that!

It is very hard to compare two aircraft when one has seen extensive combat and the other little or none as in the Apache and Hokum. It is also hard to compare two very similar and familiar aircraft when they are employed differently (Apache/Cobra).

The Ka-50 is definately a very impressive machine but I have some reservations about the coaxil rotor in the hangar. This adds one more dimension to one of the worlds greatest physics labs (the modern helicopter). I do know a few who have experience maintaining Russian helos and I am not sure that I would want to tackle the preventive maintenance on that one, let alone balance it.

I am by no means writing the Hokum off, I have seen the performance figures and they are amazing. If the performance can be maintained on and operational level it would be the one to beat but it hasn't seen any extensive service peacetime or wartime. I am waiting to see what these things do when they start getting a few thousand hours on a bunch. That is when you know if you have a good one or not.

Mac

QUOTE: You said you prefer to get your information right from the "horses mouth". Well Andy, who do you think you're getting it from here on the forums? Many of us are speaking from first hand knowledge on particular aircraft (me-Pavehawk, Jon-Apache/Cobra, John-Hueys, Frank-CH-47)

Exactly! Thats why I am here! And I really appriciate your help!

Andy,
First off Air Forces Monthly is a British publication. I might add that it has proven to be an excellent source of open resource intel and is rarely biased.
Secondly how can you NOT take into account an aircraft (or any weapon system's) combat record when comparing which is the best. Besides, as a few have already said...best at what?

Where did you get the Langley SU-27 vs F-15 info? Never heard that before. I did read about the exercise in India where Indian SU-27s got the best of some Alaskan based F-15s. Of course the F-15s were not allowed to use the AIM-120 nor any other BVR shots and were usually 2V4, but that's another story. You might be interested to know that the squadron that participated in that exercise is based up here in Alaska and I had access to the hotwash results.

You said you prefer to get your information right from the "horses mouth". Well Andy, who do you think you're getting it from here on the forums? Many of us are speaking from first hand knowledge on particular aircraft (me-Pavehawk, Jon-Apache/Cobra, John-Hueys, Frank-CH-47). I know that I for one have given YOU information based on my own experiences in Somalia and elsewhere for your MH-60L build. If any Hokum or Havoc drivers or maintainers want to chime in....Oh wait...never mind...there's only a handfull. Just kidding..kind of.
Combat performance for the Havoc and Hokum are purely theoretical and what little exists is based on a few of them flying in Chechnya or in tests. Both of these aircraft have been around for a while and it does beg the question...why hasn't ANY other country purchased them?

Anyway, just be careful when you automatically assume that we are answering based purely on some patriotic sense of responsibility to defend "American Made" gear.

Besides..."Which is the best attack helicopter?" That's an easy one. It's the one that comes up on your freq. answering the call for fire support when the fhit has hit the san.

Oh and one more thing. If Canada had a choice to purchase Apaches or KA 50s I doubt the KAs would be purchased. Same reason why they fly American fighters and Helos. They want the best. You really can't blame them.

One more thing to consider is who is in the Hot seat would make a good helo great and a bad helo better.. A fine example is the Mig 15 vs the F 86.. The Mig was a better aircraft in several ways but the F 86 ruled it in combat.. It's the training and experience that make a "better" aircraft.. The Apache and the Cobra series are un-matched when it comes to it's combat abilitys due in a great part to who is flying them..
You can go on and on ( T72 vs M1 Abrams etc..

Guys,
I am not here for arguing. If you wanna know more about Ka-50 advantages and possibilities comparing to Apache I suggest you to read not only Air Forces Monthly or some other US publication. My native language is not English but I if I wanna know something about US helos - I prefer to get firsthand info from original sources - yes, I spend my time with dictionary, I try to get in touch with ppl here, I read books, I search web...and finally I get what I wont. But it seems to me that its much easier for you just to believe the first magazine article you find. Of course it will tell you that Ka-50 is a piece of crap comparing to Apache! We were enemies for God sakes! When I was studying in Maritime Academy - I was taught how to search and destroy American submarines! And it was just few years ago! Like Gino said (and its true) - "old habits"
So what you expect from them to say? Truth? That in 1992 in Langley the basic modification of Flanker had beaten F-15 D Eagle in all training flights?
Or that Ka-50 is faster, more powerful, more armed, and more manoeuvrable then Apache?
Yes, Russia has just few of them due to economical crisis nowadays that’s why they've chosen cheaper Mi-28 for now... But its not over with Ka-50. The competition between them is still going on.
The question was "what is the best (not proven in wars or most selling) attack helicopter". I give my vote to KA-50/52

By the way according to Kamov test burou - the rotor system of Ka-50 can resist the 12.5 mm burst and the canopy up to 20mm, all other sides of cockpit - up to 30 mm. Thats why they call it a flying tank
Sorry for being a little strict)))
Now I’ll get back to less arguable modelling subjects
Andy

Intruder_bass, despite your description, I'm a little hazy on what exactly the "hollow manuever" is. What's your reference source? I'd like to read up on it. Same thing on the combat action reports of the Ka-50/52 and Mi-28.

As for a fly-off between the -64 and Ka-50, it would be interesting. The coaxial system has it's advantages, at least in theory. (If somebody could provide insight as to what they're like to maintain, I'd like to hear it). But consider these points:

--You can make any manuever you want... all your opponent has to do is pedal turn to keep you within his weapon's slew limits.

--Nobody is going to manuever faster than a gun turret can track, and if bullets won't work, a shotgun blast from a flechette rocket probably will.

--No rotary-wing aircraft can outmanuever a missile.

--Like fixed wing ACM, who sees who first is the most critical factor. The most dangerous opponent might be a lift bird with four alert sets of eyes and miniguns on both sides.

Besides, the real arena for these aircraft isn't air-to-air, but air-to-ground. Both the Apache and Cobra have proven they can both give and take a pounding, despite the relative vulnerability of having a tail rotor. Russian aircraft have a reputation for, if nothing else, being tough as nails, so I don't doubt that Hokums and Havocs are the same.

Andy, Andy, Andy.....

Firstly, I can't put my hands on it right now (my stuff's all packed up and I'm headed to Ft. Rucker) but I believe in last month's Air Forces Monthly, the Russian Army announced the contract for the Mi-28 over the Ka-50.

Just because I am an American (citizen, soldier, etc...) does not mean I automatically think that we've got the best stuff. Some of it, sure, but not all. The Ka-50, as I've said is an impressive machine, but I just don't see how a coaxial rotor system can stand up to cannon fire... you're bound to lose something. For ASW operations, that's one thing, but if someone's shooting at you, you're doomed.

Plus, with a single crewman, I just see it as a distinct disadvantage. You and I could go on for hours. Point is, the Apache's been tested and proven, the Mil company saw that, and used it and came up with a very similar machine. The Ka-50 is innovative, but if the excrement ever hit the whirling blades, I think it'd be hurting pretty quickly.

Cobrahistorian,

Here we are again. The same old story. Cold war is over but the propoganda and way of thinking is still the same. Open your mind. I now that you guys are real patriots and better believe to what they tell you from above then to face the reality. No offence but I am pretty sure you think everything in your country is the best just becuz its American Well its not a bad point but, comon
First of all there is NO official information that Russian Army has put the Mi-28 into production over Ka-50/52. Both of them were successfully tested in action in Chechnia and other Kavkaz countries against terrorist formation. Yes, its not the same as war in PG but its enough to say that KA-50's contra-rotating rotors work much better when they shoot at them then the one on Apache
Maneuverability is outstanding:
"Advantages of aerodynamically symmetric coaxial rotor have appeared obvious. Such rotor provides simplicity of operation of helicopter in manual and automatic mode, an excellent maneuverability, take off and landing at a wind of any force and a direction. Besides the coaxial rotor is capable to raise fighting survivability of the helicopter, to provide compactness of transmission and to lower power losses of engines.
Su-27 Has amazed experts and spectators with " Pugachev's cobra ". Ka-50 has its own flight trick. So-called "hollow" can be done only on this machine. This figure provides to the helicopter the concentrated fire on the dot target. At the same time the machine concerning the opponent constantly moves on an azimuth and a corner of a place - in "hollow", that extremely complicates an aiming on the machine.
Ka-50 is capable to move sideways - to slide with a speed of 80 km/hours, and backwards - with a speed of 90 km/hours. Change of a direction of movement on opposite takes just a moment. The unique helicopter in the world, capable within 12 hours "to hang" on an exact one place, is too Ka-50"
Also, you need to take into account that Kamov company is upgraiding their helo too
It whould be very interesting if they make an flight exercise between Ka-50 and Ah-64 like the one with Su-27 vs F-15 in Langley

Andy

Unfortunately, there aren't very many people who have flown both the Apache and W-model Cobra to give a good comparison of the two. The Apache happens to be what I know, so for me, it's the one.

If I could assemble my own ideal gunship it would be an A-model with just a few Longbow features (the FCR isn't one of them), along with Gen III FLIR, up-to-date ASE gear and an IZLID laser for the gun. The AH-1Z looks to me like a real attack pilot's kind of ride, but I'll wait until the line pilots get to handle it in the field before I form an opinion.

BTW, I wouldn't write off unguided rockets. Precision guided stuff is great, but sometimes you need something that doesn't depend on lasers, environmental conditions, and scatter-brained frontseaters. Give me a CCIP (the AH-1Z has one, according to the press releases), plenty of cheap simple rockets to practice with, and I'll be my own precision guidance system.

I could not pin it down to one, I would say both the Cobra and the Apache are the best, both have different mission and capabilities and are good at preforming those missions

AH-G1!!!!!!

Intruder,

The Ka-50 has been touted quite a bit in these forums and elsewhere, but the Russian Army has just put the Mi-28 into production over it. What's up with that? The -28 just seems to be a poor knock-off of the Apache. Honestly, the Ka-50 is an impressive machine, but I don't see how those contra-rotating rotors were going to work when someone is shooting at them.

Also, you need to take into account the next-generation of AH-64 weaponry. The day of the "unguided" 2.75" rocket is rapidly fading. New rockets which are in production now have given an even greater precision attack capability to modern US attack helicopters, giving them up to 76 guided missiles at their fingertips. Pretty impressive. While the Russian helicopters may be faster, I wonder how they compare against the Apache for maneuverability. I've seen the -64 do some pretty amazing things.