AH-6 and FLIR

Hey guys,

From what I've seen the AH-6M Little Birds have enlarged tail feathers to compensate for the sixth rotor blade and four bladed tail rotor.  I'm trying to convert my MELB into one and its slow going.  Grafting that sixth rotor blade in there is a pain in the rear, but its coming along.  I think scratchbuilding the GAU-19 .50 cal is going to be the most difficult part of the conversion, though. 

I've already enlarged the tail surfaces with sheet styrene and the tail rotor is coming along nicely. Of course, in my move, one of the skids snapped and I can't find the front piece.  Gonna have to make a new one!

Sal,

I think you may be right on the lower engine duct.  Looking at some more referances, it looks like it may be split down the middle.  Hard area to tell..   

Hey, that's my photo!!!!!!!

Actually it's kind of cool to see you referencing a photo I took Andy.

Gino is spot on concerning the Aux tanks and AN/APR-39 spiral antennas as well as the AN/AAR-47 missile approach warning system (MAWS).  For that matter so are you Andy.  The "hockey pucks" are the spiral antennas asociated with the AN/APR-39 radar detector/warning receiver system.  There is also a blade antenna associated with this system.  It was employed by both the MH-60s and A/MH-6s during Gothic Serpent (we also had them at that time on our Pavehawks).  Those are the same antennas you point out in my photo (pavehawk) and in the littlebird photos located on the forward door frames and rearward of the main rotor on each side (just as you have illustrated).. 

Post Gothic Serpent (late 1990s?) the AN/AAR-47 missile and laser detection sytem was introduced.  We mostly refer to both systems combined as the AN/ALE-39/47.  The "plume" detectors are the "horns" you see mounted on the nose of the Pavehawks and MH-60s with the chrome looking balls recessed on the ends.  I've never seen plume detectors on any littlebird, nor any chaff/flare dispensors.

The only thing I'm going to disagree with Gino on is the engine duct.  I'm 99.9% sure that it split down the middle when the clamshell doors are opened for maintenance.

Thanks Gino,

I will leave the aux tank in.

About these sensors - I thought PLUME detectors are other ones.... Here is the pic with Hawk example. There are 2 kinds of sensors on the nose - one is the PLUME detector and the others are the RADAR warning antennas.

As far as I know the RWA was there even in 93'

Here is another pic of Gothic Serpent Little Birds - if you look close enough - there is "somthing" on the canopy frame - I marked it with arrow. So basicly I was interested - if they had this thing on front, it is reasonable to guess they did have the same on the back...

I might be wrong though)))))

Andy

Did they have internal aux tanks?

Believe they did have them installed.  They are pretty much standard with AH-6s due to their fuel consumption being high with all the added weight of weapons or guys on the planks.

Did AH-6s have rear sensors aswell as the front ones (on the canopy frame)?

Plume detectors are a post Gothic Serpent addition, same on MH-60Ls, no plume detectors.

Also this thing on the rear bottom near the exhaust pipe - its located right in the center, so I was wondering, when you open the engine doors the thing splits in two? or it stays on one of the doors? If so, on which one?

I believe the center vent does stay together and on one of the two doors when opened, can't remember which one though.

The DML AH-6J build pretty much as a Gothic Serpent bird straight OOB.

Sal,

I am still thinking of those Gothic Serpent AH-6Js.... Did they have internal aux tanks? I know that Black Hawks didn't but what about Little birds?

Did AH-6s have rear sensors aswell as the front ones (on the canopy frame)?

Also this thing on the rear bottom near the exhaust pipe - its located right in the center, so I was wondering, when you open the engine doors the thing splits in two? or it stays on one of the doors? If so, on which one?

Cuz I am playing with idea to open them on my bird and show the engine.

Thanks

Andy

I understand that all or most of the little birds have the FLIR MWO but it is not always installed. From what Ive been able to gather, the gun birds usually do not have the FLIR installed, at least for the era I will end up modelling (mid to late 90s) Maybe I can find the original MWO date from work.

Anyway, this will end up being a retirement gift for a E-7 who worked on the little birds in that era and has lined up a job working on them as a civilian at task force when he retires. I'm looking for some pix that show general routing of wire bundles/cables from the radio stack, FLIR monitors, and weapons, specifically where the mount back to the airframe from those items. Since he has worked on these birds he would know right from wrong so I want to be fairly accurate. I know that these are not items that the typical plane spotter takes pix of, but hey its worth a shot. Im not looking for pix of secret squirrel stuff (gotta love OPSEC !) and Im not trying to be hyper detailed but theres room to work in the cabin so if I can clutter it up a bit I'll go for it. I got into this jam because I did an OH-58D for another guys retirement and added the cutting edge 58D set and the missing stuff in back and added cables using .20 plastic rod and wiring cut out of an old set of headphones. I post pix but I was so late finishing it that as soon as the clear coat was no longer tacky I had to drop it off to be mounted to a base and he could get it before he moved. I would just ask the guy whos retiring since I know he has pix but it is a surprise so were not mentioning anything to him.

Thx,

Mog

Yep.

Looks like the stinger on the tail is longer too.  It also looks like the skid tubes are thicker and the rear skid strut is set back farther, but that may be an optical illusion  Havn't had the pleasure of working with the new MELBs as of yet...just the older J models.  It also looks to me like the bird in your photo still has the internal Aux fuel tank on agaainst the rear bulkhead.  I hear the new external tanks are conformal.

Sometime in the late 1990's early 2000 (I think) the 160th switched over to the X-style SATCOM antenna.

As with everything else in modeling, it all comes down to the version, speciafic airframe and time period that you want to reproduce.

I see...

I was just browsing the Web to get some more info on Little birds and found this:

..." The mission-enhanced Little Bird (MELB) program is a major modification to the existing AH-6/MH-6 fleet. The modification is packaged as a kit that replaces existing components on the aircraft. The new MELB aircraft will have a sixblade main rotor system, a four-blade tail rotor, an improved drive train and the AlIison 250-C30R3 full-authority, digital-engine control (FADEC). The MELB also incorporates an improved landing gear, crashworthy fuel cells, enlarged rear doors and external extended-range fuel tanks. The MELB modifications will change the look and performance of the AH-6/MH-6 aircraft.The MELB program aims to increase the performance and safety margins of the existing Little Bird aircraft. The modifications increase the maximum gross weight of the aircraft to 4,700 pounds; improve the high/hot performance capabilities of the aircraft; and move the extended-range fuel tanks from inside the cabin area, thereby increasing the cabin space available to the supported ground commander. In addition, there is a concurrent program to improve the weapon management system for the AH configuration. The MELB program boosts the performance and extends the life of the AH-6/MH-6 aircraft..."

Allmost the same is written in the 160th Night Stalkers book right beside this photo:

It clearly shows the new-style FLIR mount (just like CC produces) but...........six blades ))))

P.S. note also the X-style SATCOM antenna

Andy

Thanks for great photos and info Salbando!

About the last pic:

Do they leave this control box on the door frame even when the FLIR is removed?

Mog,

First it's important (at least my understanding) to realize that the MH-6 and AH-6 is basically the same basic airframe, but two different configurations.  Often you'll see them refered to as A/MH-6.  Especially with the MELBs.  You can take an AH-6 and put ass slabs on it, and an MH-6 and put weapons stores on it.  The basic planks going through the rear cabin are the same.

With that said, I'm almost positive (going from memory) that the Littlebirds in Mog didn't have FLIR, although the MH-60s did.  As a matter of fact I don't remember seeing any FLIR mounts on the Littlebirds there either.

I think they started being fitted with FLIR shortly after Gothic Serpent (1993/4?).  The previously posted pics show the new/current and older FLIR mounts.  Here is a pic showing the early FLIR mount.

Here's a side pick showing the rear cabin, ammo bin, feedchute, internal aux fuel tank and wiring for FFAR tube.  You can also see that there's no FLIR mount and that it has a batwing SATCOM antenna (circa Gothic Serpent).  BTW, you can also see that while this aircraft is configured as an AH-6, it retains the three hardpoints for the FRIES frame (MH-6).

Here's a left side view again showing the FFAR tube, M134 ammo bin and feedchute, and the internal Aux fuel tank. (to the rear of the ammo bin).  You can also see some of the wiring for the M134 and 7-shot FFAR tube.  Also note the ton of wiring coming from the front end (Comm intensive with little space).

If you look close, you can see the routing for the FFAR tube wiring.  You can also see the batwing SATCOM antenna.  Also note the formation strip lights just above the exhaust.

If you look at AH1Wsnake's second pic of acft 356, you can see the FLIR display boxes on each side of the intrument panel.  Also note the older style FLIR turret mount.  If you look at his first pic of acft 363 and expand the view, you can see the wedge-shaped FLIR panel display boxes through the plexiglas, along with their wiring.  Note also the newer/current FLIR turret mount.

Here's a pic showing one of the FLIR control boxes mounted on the forward doorframe (lower left of pic).  There's another control box (not shown in this pic) mounted on top of the FLIR display box on the left side of the instrument panel.

By the way, Cobra Company does a great job recreating these mods (and others) in the MELB upgrade kit.

Salbando 

Thats what Im looking for now, the routing of cables from the FLIR screens and any visible instrument panel wiring and where do the cables from the rocket pod and guns connect inside the cabin. Anyone have anything like that ?

Mog

Thought I only had the one, but I found another armed bird with FLIR; no guns, though. You can see a little bit of the cockpit detail through the windscreen, too.

Outstanding !!!! Much appreciated fellas. Thats what I needed. Lemme know if you need any UH-60 pics or info and I can probably hook you up.

Mog

Mog,

Here's two shots of an AH-6M and it definitely has the FLIR mount, but no turret attached.  Both shots are left side, so you've got some good detail there for the aft left cabin.

If I ever get my LB's finished, one of them will end up looking like this one!