Another bird down

SSgtD6152 wrote:

phantom works wrote: I appreciate your reply.......however, you must have me confused with somebody else............I believe in Bush and the mission as much as you do.  I wish you God's speed, and I personally hope you grease the gears of your vehicles with these A holes you're up against.     That is not how you came across to me bud. Then that is for all of the others then. But man, I did need to get that out.

fugg them........don't think for a minute you're not supported.  You just get over their and kill as many of them POS's as you can and stay safe and come home in one piece......this is the first time in my career that I'm working on a project that the big green machine is literally waiting for us to finish in time to take it over there and use it..........I'm proud to say at least I'm doing something to help the effort, although I wish I could do more....

SSgtD,
   I am with you man.  If I seem like I am complaining that is not my intent.  Yes, we are the best trained and best equipped force that the world has ever seen.  Do I wish that every Joe out there had the latest and greatest stuff there is?  You bet your buttons I do!  I know that the wheels of procurement grind slowly and we sometimes have to do without and still get the mission done, that has been a part of the military since time began.  We have all had to do more with less, that just makes it better when you do get the goodies.  This is just a chance to kick things around with folks who know what is going on and may have a little insight.  If we ever get there at the same time...I've got your back.

Don't worry about PW, he just likes to stir things up and ruffle Gino's feathers.

phantom works wrote:

I appreciate your reply.......however, you must have me confused with somebody else............I believe in Bush and the mission as much as you do.  I wish you God's speed, and I personally hope you grease the gears of your vehicles with these A holes you're up against.

That is not how you came across to me bud. Then that is for all of the others then. But man, I did need to get that out.

phantom works wrote:

you know guys, a little debate never hurt anybody.......why hesitate to go off on me?  I'd be interested to know your point of view.....by the way, it looks like the mother fuggers might have done another blackhawk down kind of thing........ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12165495/

you know guys, a little debate never hurt anybody.......why hesitate to go off on me?  I'd be interested to know your point of view.....by the way, it looks like the mother fuggers might have done another blackhawk down kind of thing........

I don't think that the Marines have ever gotten away from using this tactic and have proven it still effective.

SSgtD,
   Down boy, it's O.K..  I really do understand the point of view if not the perspective.

snakedriver,
   That is right on what I have in mind.  I think that big A is just having to swing back to the old way of doing things now that the Fulda Gap is no longer the primary focus of our military might.  Tactics are like equipment, you don't really know everything that you need until you need it.  This is not unlkie any other conflict the U.S. has been involved in that respect, there have always been a few Oh Yeahs along the way.

Availability of equipment can be a pain sometimes but when it comes down to it,  there is a job to be done.  The great thing about the U.S. troops is that they make the best use they can of what ever is there to use.  I really salute any ground guys out there when I see what y'all sometimes have to make do with and still make the mission happen.  I am glad to be a part of it (as long as I can still play with helicopters).

Snakedriver,

You'll be happy to know the Pink Team is on the rise again!  

Guys,

Running fire is the norm nowadays.  Hovering fire gun tactics are headed the way of the Dodo as far as I know.  The environment over there (and I have NOT been there yet, this is just what I've been able to discern from interviews and classes) is very similar to the type of combat environment in Vietnam.  When fighting a "low intensity" conflict against an insurgent enemy, hovering to get your weapons to track is about the worst thing you can do, especially in an urban environment. 

I'm still in primary right now, but have a few friends who are currently in the Longbow program (not to mention I know a few guys who fly em! ;) ), so I'm not up on exactly what is being taught as far as tactics.   Give me another four months and I'll be flying the beast myself!

phantom works wrote:

any details on unit?  I heard it was a longbow........that rules out my fathers unit (missouri ANG)....who just deployed a company to iraq.  Still very sad to hear of another loss.  It's like rumsfeld said when confronted with all these very legitimate complaints.....you don't go to war with the army you want, you go to war with the army you have.    I'm the type of person that can find a way to blame clinton for everything........and you can rest assured the clinton administration never in a million years dreamed that we'd be putting helicopters into this kind of urban threat environment after tucking tail and running from mogudishu.......after mogudishu, every helicopter in army aviation should have all the countermeasures installed and operational.......but we went to war without the proper equipment.  Blame bush if you want, for going to war........but the military procurement cycle isn't quite that nimble.  The end result, needless deaths.

I'm just giong to bite my tongue, and bee a Good Marine, and not go off on you!

   This is a topic that is extremely uncomfortable for me; and I'm not quite sure how to address some of the points and questions raised here. The loss of freinds and fellow aircrew is never an easy event to get over. It is painful and a reminder that it could happen to anyone...including one's self. Conventional wisdom is to put it behind you and get on with business, but the nagging question of "what if" still remains.

   I'll weigh in on the side of our neophyte pilot and state simply that, as a former combat pilot, I'll take whatever edge I can get. If there is a warning system available (that makes sense) I want it on my aircraft! In RVN we got an acoustic system that beeped out a warning when bullets went past our aircraft. The thinking behind the system was that Cobra crews were fully enclosed and could not get the audio cues that our Loach and Huey bretheren got by flying with windows open and doors off. The problem was that our mission was such that we took fire quite frequently. While it was seldom accurate, all the noise from the warning system scared the bejeebers out of us and didn't give us a cue as to the source of the threat. We preferred NOT to know! The systems were removed. My unit was heavily involved in the Easter Offensive of '72 (I had already DEROS'd) around An Loc. Several AH-1's were lost to SA-7's along with their crews. No counter-measures were available so a change in tactics was required. Up to that time, our biggest fear was large caliber anti-aircraft automatic weapons. The solution was to attack and transit at altitude to remain on the fringes or beyond effective range. After the SA-7 shoot downs, tactics were changed to NOE which became standard doctrine later on.

   I have noticed on TV news reports that attack helicopters have been "hovering" at low level in Iraq while performing armed recon or escort missions. Whether or not these images are just isolated or whether that is indeed the current SOP I have reservations about the soundness of such tactics. It's just my opinion, but the High-Low "pink team" package we used in RVN would make more sense. The 'little bird" is much more agile and a smaller target at low level than it's big brother, the attack helicopter. However, whether low and slow and vulnerable to RPG's or high and fast and vulnerable to SAM's, it is my opinion that tactics or systems alone are not the eventual solution to losses. It is most likely a combination of both that will reduce losses. The urban environment presents it's own set of unique problems. Lots of places to hide and snap off a quick RPG round at a low level target: and windows and alleys to hide a shoulder mounted SAM shooter. I've always been an advocate for OH-6 based Cavalry Scout tactics utilizing multiple birds for mutual protection at low-level with a heavy gunship at altitude to deliver the killer punch.

   Sorry about the rambling. It's just the opinion of a rump-sprung old relic who's been there and felt the frustration and anguish of losing a freind.

phantom works wrote:

...are they teaching running fires, etc, etc......

There are others who know more than me, but I have heard that the Army was considering bringing back running fires as part of gun tactics.  I don't think that the Marines have ever gotten away from using this tactic and have proven it still effective.

I agree that the current state-of-the-art for ASE is much improved and highly effective.  I really think that, with improved tactics and the latest equipment, the Army would fare much better.  Until you get the latest and greatest CMs out there though, be sure to make the most of what you have.  Understand their strengths and weaknesses and use them to their best advantage.  It really gets to hear about servicemembers (especially aircrews for me) getting hurt and wonder if there was something that could have changed the outcome.  I guess my way of thinking is to plan for the worst case and be happy for each new tool as we get them.

If you are there or going there, stay safe and use everything you can to your advantage.

Mac

PW, lets leave the politics off the forum.  I've got a few friends here at flight school in your Dad's unit.  Glad to hear they're all ok over there.

Mac,

Sure, I agree with you on that, to an extent.  At close range, crews have minimal time to react to MANPADS and RPGs.  The minimum range on an SA-7 is 500m at a minimum altitude of 18m.  A lucky ballistic shot could hit, but wouldn't be armed.   RPGs are a bit slower, but equally as lethal, as they have a larger warhead.  What I'm arguing is that these systems may not prevent missile hits, but can prevent lethal missile hits if the crews have that extra split-second to react. 

Right now, USAF and USN  helicopters all have AAR-47 detectors, which would be of some help against both RPGs and -7/14s.  The DIRCM system that the Air Force fields on their MH-53s is an infinitely more capable system than the -144, especially at low level.  A buddy of mine and Trigger's crews Pave Lows and has had to use the DIRCM in combat.  He basically said they flipped it on, the system got a good track on it and defeated it easily, and they all watched the missile arc harmlessly into the ground. 

If you look at the film of the Longbow that got shot down in January, the shooter was at a reasonable standoff distance (at least one mile).  Even though it was very quick from launch to impact, the proper systems on that Longbow would have saved the crew's lives.  In that horrific video clip, you see the missile fire and track all the way to the target.  AAR-47 Plume detectors would have given them the critical seconds needed to at least have made the hit survivable, if not avoided it outright.  I don't have specifics yet on the shootdown this weekend, so I can't really comment on the circumstances just yet.   

Air Force, Navy and SOAR helicopters have been downed in significantly fewer numbers (proportionally!) than Army birds.  Sure, there are a lot more Army birds flying around, but if you look at it proportionally, many more Army birds have gone down than other services' helicopters, and it isn't due to better piloting skills!

As for having GIBs, I wish I had that luxury, you guys are the best!  As a gun guy, though, I won't.  Tactics are finally coming back to where they should be, but are still lagging a bit.  Tactics, coupled with effective countermeasures, will start saving a hell of a lot more lives and make shootdowns a lot more survivable.

phantom works wrote:

any details on unit?  I heard it was a longbow........that rules out my fathers unit (missouri ANG)...........after mogudishu, every helicopter in army aviation should have all the countermeasures installed and operational.......but we went to war without the proper equipment.

Glad to hear you can rule out your Dad's unit, I'm sure that brings a sigh of relief.

I may be at risk of opening the proverbial can of worms but many of the countermeasures are not of much use.  At low level the SA-7,14 are almost ballistic weapons and there is little you can do to protect against RPG's.  The best ASE you have in the theater is the MK1 eyeball (Let's hear a cheer for all those GIBs).  An urban environment presents a difficult scenario for helicopters, there are so many places to hide and engagements often occur at very short range.  Tactics and proceedures are of much more use here than technology.  I think that we need to talk to some of those wise old Snake drivers out there.  They understand the necessary tactics because they didn't have the technology.  The two pilots that I preferred to cross the berm with graduated flight school before 1970 and knew how to fly in badguy land.  I am all for having the best countermeasures in the world but tactics are what really saves your backside.

Mac

any details on unit?  I heard it was a longbow........that rules out my fathers unit (missouri ANG)....who just deployed a company to iraq.  Still very sad to hear of another loss.  It's like rumsfeld said when confronted with all these very legitimate complaints.....you don't go to war with the army you want, you go to war with the army you have.    I'm the type of person that can find a way to blame clinton for everything........and you can rest assured the clinton administration never in a million years dreamed that we'd be putting helicopters into this kind of urban threat environment after tucking tail and running from mogudishu.......after mogudishu, every helicopter in army aviation should have all the countermeasures installed and operational.......but we went to war without the proper equipment.  Blame bush if you want, for going to war........but the military procurement cycle isn't quite that nimble.  The end result, needless deaths.  

I just read a report that said bodies have been recovered.  The only cause listed is 'hostile fire'.  Remember their families.

We also lost three other Soldiers and one Marine over the weekend.

Mac

Our thoughts and prayers are with their families.  Flying helicopters isn't easy, and neither is fighting wars.  Our thoughts and prayers are with the guys and gals doing it right now.

Semper Fi,

Chris 

Cobrahistorian wrote:

I'd assume it was either an SA-7 or an RPG, but it could have been an SA-14 or something nastier.

Ummm...  the other Apache's  FRIED the offenders I assume?      

Take care,

Frank

I'd assume it was either an SA-7 or an RPG, but it could have been an SA-14 or something nastier.  The Apache shootdown back in January was an SA-7.  The fact that a 1960s-technology missile is still able to knock our helicopters out of the sky brings up a number of issues, but the first on my mind is why don't Army aircraft (other than the 160th) have Plume Detectors on them?  Everyone else has em!

...ok, stepping down from the soapbox. 

You can say that again Frank!

May prayers go out for their safe return.  E&E in that environment can be a very interesting thing indeed, so I am optimistic about their safety.

Cobrahistorian wrote:

I'm really starting to wonder if we'll ever get the necessary self-protection systems on our helicopters.  The systems are available, the Army just hasn't put em on our birds.

Mac

Jon,

Another sad report indeed, and hoping the crew has evaded the worse.   God be with them & their families.

............................... trying my best to stay off the soapbox........................................

A perfect example of what occurs in war when politicians call the shots.

...............................trying my best to stay off the soapbox................................

Take care,

Frank