MH-60K

Actually, the MH-60K does have pylons.  They are single mount on both sides and are upward swept.  they carry the fuel drop tanks. Not sure about the rest of the differences.  My plt sgt has worked on the MH-60Ks for the 160th, I'll see what I can get from him.  [we also fly the MH-60L DAPs when we deploy]

MH-60K


MH-60L DAP [it is not an AH-60]

The US Military never accepted the upswept ESSS wings for the MH-60K.  The upswept ESSS wings were only designed to carry the fuel tanks.  With the advent and acceptance of the internal fuel cells, they were no longer needed.  The current K model has no ESSS wings. 

Basically, the only other external difference on the K model is the terrain following radar (ALQ-164) nose set-up.  There are also some sensors above the front canopy as well.  

MH-60K prototype w/upswept ESSS (notice all the orange test gear fitted)

Current MH-60K as accepted by US military (notice, it still has the unique terrain following radar (ALQ-164) set-up on the nose, and no ESSS wings)

I concur that the DAP is an MH-60L model.  US military does not use the AH designation for the H-60 series.  Further, any MH-60L can be converted to a DAP version.

Gino's right on. Further differences are the plume sensors on the tail and more extensive glass cockpit.

I am confused as to are the MH-60L's still used as normal Spec Ops bids, like the roles that they had in Somalia.  I guess that they do, but I tend to think they they use the DAP's more frequently.  Because the latest pic of an L that I have seen was from 2002 or so.  They have the sensors that the K used to have on the door (now located under the gunner windows and behind the cabin door),  but one of them looks to be "on top of" the gunners windows.

BTW, was that an L or a K in the rescue of Pvt. Jessica Lynch.  Or is that still classified/unknown.

The pic you posted is an MH-60L.  The MH-60L is still the most common US Army SOAR helo.  The different sensors are frequently changed and repositioned on these helos.  Very few are exactly alike.  Any MH-60L can be converted into a DAP.  The DAP is not used as much since it is only a gunship and can not carry any troopers in the back.  The MH-60K is more sepecialized with terrain-following radar and a full glass-cockpit, which means it is more advanced in avionics and has all LCD instruments.  The reason the MH-60L is more common is mainly due to cost.  It is cheaper than the K.  Also, it can carry more troops and cargo since it is lighter since it carries less gear and avionics equipment than the K carries.  No idea which version was used in the Jessica Lynch rescue.  It was most likely an L model.

Hey Gino, regular UH-60Ls can also become DAPs [minus the refueling probe].  A little more work, but its been done.  the unit here in Iowa last deployed as part of the 160th, and our birds underwent a major overhaul, and did become DAPs.  I have a video that my Sgt brought back from Mosul, Iraq where they demonstrated what a DAP can do.  Its been posted on Military.com.  very cool to watch.

viper_mp wrote:

Hey Gino, regular UH-60Ls can also become DAPs [minus the refueling probe].  A little more work, but its been done.  the unit here in Iowa last deployed as part of the 160th, and our birds underwent a major overhaul, and did become DAPs.

 

Yes, they can, but as you said, it takes quite a bit of rebuild/overhaul to do so.  A standard UH-60L can not become a DAP easily.  Your UH-60Ls were basically upgraded to MH-60L standards if that is the case. 

All MH-60Ls are easy to convert to DAPs.  They have all the requisite parts already and mainly just need the ESSS wings and weapons added and wired up and they are ready to go. 

HeavyArty wrote:

viper_mp wrote: Hey Gino, regular UH-60Ls can also become DAPs [minus the refueling probe].  A little more work, but its been done.  the unit here in Iowa last deployed as part of the 160th, and our birds underwent a major overhaul, and did become DAPs.    Yes, they can, but as you said, it takes quite a bit of rebuild/overhaul to do so.  A standard UH-60L can not become a DAP easily.  Your UH-60Ls were basically upgraded to MH-60L standards if that is the case.  All MH-60Ls are easy to convert to DAPs.  They have all the requisite parts already and mainly just need the ESSS wings and weapons added and wired up and they are ready to go.

Yeah, they took 4 of our birds and gutted the cockpits and nose to add all the goodies.  They didnt get the fuel probe, but they got the secondary fuel cell.  And we still have the wings stored in the hangar.  The fuel cells are out, and the extra electronics were taken back out, but we kept the ESSS wings.

Like Gino said, the biggest difference is the nose.

L Model

K Model

A Model

Remember, while we're talking about the DAP, that the original ones were the A model.

There's what we flew.  The A model DAP!  I didnt remember it having all the stuff the L did.  Just the targeting turret and the weapons.  Its the A.

That makes sense.  Still required a major rebuild though. 

Well, thanks guys. I wasn't expecting such a great amount of response in such a short span of time. The kit that I'm building is the AH-60L and according to the pics (now added to my ref pics) I'll be making the MH-60L SOAR DAP. The guy I'm building it for wants it to look like the ones from Blackhawk Down. Thanks again. One more question. What are those two diagonal objects protruding from the nose on either side of the ground following radar?

Jason82nd wrote:

The guy I'm building it for wants it to look like the ones from Blackhawk Down.

The Academy MH-60L DAP is a post Somalia bird.  Some deletions need to be made to build it into one from Somalia.  Here is some info on Operation Gothic Serpent (Somalia '93) Blackhawks, gathered from crewmen and pilots on the mission:

For an Operation Gothic Serpent MH-60L, here’s what I can tell you as told to me by a Doorgunner from the 160th who flew the mission on Oct 3-4 1993. The Blackhawks were all MH-60L, They were black with OD markings, no IFR probe, pilot doors were removed for missions, FLIR and Radar dome were fitted but not the angled missile detectors on the nose. No ESSS wings were used during missions, the AH-6 was used for fire support. The internal fuel tanks were removed for missions due to small distances flown and to fit more passengers in the back. The aircrafts call sign was painted on the window of the cargo door on both side e.g. Super 68 had "68" painted on the windows. As for the Crews they all wore Desert sand colored flying suits with a pistol usually on the thigh and their survival vest (unsure what type) and helmet personal weapons were MP-5 or M-16 usually. M-134 was the only weapons carried no .50s and the miniguns were fed by 2 individual 20mm ammo box one per gun not the huge central one like the MH-60G in the Kit.

1) The 160th MH-60L's didn't use internal aux tanks as the ranges flown were minimal, and they were primarily configured for max pax. Some of the regular army -60's used ESSS and the MedEvac -60's as well.
2) There are actually two internal aux tanks mounted side-by-side against the rear bulkhead. Sometimes we use only one, sometimes both, and sometimes neither. The mission and environment dictated how many.
3) Since we're talking about Gothic Serpent, only the M-134 miniguns were used. Every insert bird also carried two (sometimes 3) Delta snipers. The D-boy snipers used M-25's (accurized M-14's) M-4's and I think a saw a couple SR-25's or AR-10's.
4) While the 160th guys brought two DAP kits with them and even used them for training (to keep currency, etc.) they were never used operationally during Gothic Serpent. For that fact, I don't remember ever seeing an MH-60L using ESSS during my deployment there.
5) Weapons, a personal thing for each crewmember. MP-5's were sometime carried in thigh rigs but were generally stowed up front somewhere. Crewchiefs had M-4 carbines and M-16A2's usually stowed behind the pilot's seats but they were also stowed elsewhere. We stowed them hanging off the webbing on the H-bar directly over the minigun ammo bins. All crewmembers also usually carried at least one pistol (issues M-9, but some had Sigs and 1911's) in a thigh rig or in a vest holster.
6) IFR probes were not used in Gothic Serpent for the same reason as Item 1). And that the only refueling assets were two USMC KC-130's based out of Mombasa Kenya but I think they left when the Marines left prior to Gothic Serpent.

I vividly remember that some MH-60L's had the nose radar and some did not. All had the FLIR turret mounts but didn't have FLIR installed for every mission. There were no plume detectors that I saw but each one had nose and tail mounted APR-39 radar detectors.

What are the serial numbers for the two MH-60Ls downed in Mogadishu?
91-26350 and 91-26324

Super 61 was named 'Thunderstruck' 91-26324 Walcot's bird
Super 64 was named 'Venom' 91-26350 Durant's bird
Super 68 was named 'Razors Edge' 90-26288
Super 66 was named 'Gun Slinger' 91-26363
And then there was 'Southern Comfort' which I'm not sure their operational codenumber was.

Super 62 - carried Shughart and Gordon
Super 64 - reserve bird
Super 66 - carried chalk 3
Super 67 - carried chalk 4
Super 68 - carried the CSR team

Other OPGS aircraft
I am sure I am going to leave a couple out. These were from my platoon. Some were the MH-60A others were MH-60L. Most were DAPS.

85-24395 The Predator, The 1st ever DAP
83-23908 Heavy Metal
83-23887 Heavy Metal, We had to give ACFT 908 to our sister unit. I took the engine cowlings off of 908 and put them on 887.
83-23839 Iron Maiden
84-24000 The Liberator
84-24010 Bounty Hunter
83-23853 Bat Copter ===Batman logo on engine cowlings
89-26184 Flatliner The 1st L model DAP
91-26360 Thrasher
91-26276 Dirty Deeds

"The aircraft always flew with the cockpit doors off. Super 61 had a hoist mount, but no hoist was installed. It would be a U shaped piece of metal about a foot long and about a foot forward of the right hand engine air inlet. One other thing, the fairings around the main landing gear strut weren't installed on any of the Black hawks in D Company and cargo hooks weren't installed on the aircraft. There was a tube, about 3 inches in diameter installed in its place. The tube had 4 rings (in a clover leaf pattern) attached to it in the center. The system was installed in place of the cargo hook for securing the aircraft during fixed wing transport of the helicopter..." (Pat Powers crew chief Super 65)

2. Super 64, 160 SOAR, Michael Durant’s bird.

Durant’s Blackhawk was Super Six-Four. It had 64 painted on the front cabin door windows. As for the helicopter's nickname, Durant never referred to it in his book other than Six-Four. Looking at the photo of his crew posing with the helicopter, on the right engine nacelle (looking forward from the pilots' positions, there is a word written in what looks like Arabic under a square root symbol. It is hard to make out, but in another picture, this time of 64's crew chief Tommy Fields, you can make out the bottom half of the left engine nacelle. “VENOM” is on the nacelles, with the V forming the right leg with a line extending across the whole word so it looks like a square root sign.

Also from Durant’s book:
"Tommy, in his late twenties, had a race car back in his garage in Lisbon, Maine, and he treated 'his helicopter' no differently from that hot rod. The wheels were always slick with Armor All, the windshield washed after every mission. There wasn't a drop of oil on that thing."
So you don't have to dirty the model up too much to accurately represent the real thing.

 

If you need any refernace pics, send me an email and I can send you some.

 

One more question. What are those two diagonal objects protruding from the nose on either side of the ground following radar?

They are missile plume detectors.  Part of the counter-measures system on the aircraft.  They warn you if there is an incoming missile.  They were not present on helos in Somalia.  Also, on the L it is not a terrain-following radar protruding from the nose.  That is a doppler weather rader.  Only the K model has the terrain-following radar.

Good luck.

 

Hello everybody, I work in a 1/35 academy DAP, I have the pavehawk MRC and I wait for the Academy L (some mistakes) DAP, I you need information to work in a 1/35 "K", I recomended to buy the "K" 1/48 Cobra company Kit, for me is the best reference to the Dashboard, IBM equipment, Nose. Warning Door detector and some items, I am new in the forum, and I am grateful to your comments because are a really good reference!! thanks all!, I will try to post some interest pictures of a DAP and a "Shot" in the center of the Somalia´s "L" (Was a miracle tu return to the base), somebody tell me How i put the pictures?

Thanks

 

 

 

could you explain that picture?  Is that one of the 160th birds from somalia?

That's not an MH-60L from Somalia and I have serious doubts about that being an MH-60K. There's not enough shown for us to tell with any certainty.

However, the paint scheme is too light (dark gray or faded Helo Drab with black stencils as opposed to the Nightstalker's black finish with dark gray or OD stencils) and the tail number (J-1918) is not a US-style registration. Philippines perhaps? I know they've been in armed conflict with militants.

Hello everybody, the source of these picture was a Sikorsky presentacion of the Blackhawk,  I scanned and put in the Forum,  I know that is no a "K" model, I just wanna show it! the presentacion was does in my country, and a reporter does a journalist about the chopper,  he give me the sample of the presentacion and the legend´s picture is: "Returned to base over one hour after an RPG hit" when I told about the scale modeling, he said me that picture was take in Somalia, and give me some samples of the Sikorsky, I am´not shure is true, but, if somebody know.. welcome! your are the expert!!, I´am just a single model builder!

PD: The DAP picture is too big to post, let me reduce and I will post soon! and excuse me for my english!!!

Someone from Sikorsky said that was a Somalia Black Hawk?

Don't worry about your English, you're coming through loud and clear. Welcome to the forums Caballo, where is it you call home?

Hello Trigger, I living in Caracas, Venezuela, (beautiful country, wrong leaders)  These reporter was a friend, he was invited from Sikorsky  in EEUU to show him the plant and the tecnology, and Sikorsky build and paint some hawks to my country, I feel so Sad because my country refuse to buy,  my country  did a wrong buy,  Mil-mi 17 six month ago, and one was down and two can´t fly because  mechanics troubles,  I readed the Bowman book "Black hawk down", in these book he wrote about a hawk with a shot in the same side and the chopper must be come back to the base in Somali after leave troop or deltas in the first crash site, maybe he supossed that the picture is these choppers, the number on the picture maybe is the picture number not a bird number,   I am a Hawk fanatic, in the IPMS on Florida (99) I  builded a 1/48 MH-60 K with Cobra Company kits,fotoechs  and lot of scrach , but  for paint and decals troubles and little time to repair, the hawk did stay in my surgical table! I did leave the choppers and star paint figures and build armor but... my "himalaya" is a Hawk, I star again  the project but in 1/35 scale, I wanna build a Big DAP ( two 30mm chain gun, one 2.75 inch rockets rocket pod and four hellfires) plus two miniguns,  I have the MRC, Pave hawk, and L model, some CC kits and Eduard fotoechs, but I  can´t buyed the DAP because a Goverment regulations in change control , recently I star again with my "Himalaya" A friend buy (Via internet) the kit and I really hope to have these kit in my hands a soon as posible, I read now "in company of heroes" of Durant, is a really good book, it show the human reality about the war!  and the Fred J. Pushies book "nightstalker"  to refresh my knowledges, I hope show some pictures to my project! thanks for the "welcome"! 

Sounds good.  Good luck building it, but you may be slightly over doing it....

I wanna build a Big DAP ( two 30mm chain gun, one 2.75 inch rockets rocket pod and four hellfires) ...

The DAP usually has just one hard-point on each side.  The total weapons and ammo load that you propose would most likely overload the helo. 

hey caballo, my wife is from venezuela, and my mother in law has been with us for a year............they are from merida originally..........you're english is a little worse than my wife, but a lot better than my mother in law!   I will say this, it's a lot better than my spanish..........hehe.....also, I will say they don't like chavez any more than you do apparently. 

Jajaja, about your wife she is a "gocha" the people of Merida and San Cristobal like your wife and my father named "Gochos" , you have a great woman!!! with a strong temper! jajaja about politics, my grandmother did say "don´t put the finger in the ulcer"  about my english........ you are a big joker!!!

Thanks for your wishes, these is the first picture to show me a Heavy DAP! in the same Sikorsky papers from my friend, recently I find these picture on internet and the Pushies book,

 

 

Thanks for your wishes, these is the first picture to show me a Heavy DAP! in the same Sikorsky papers from my friend, recently I find these picture on internet and the Pushies book,

 

 

O.K, so it may be technically feasible, but is not actually used in that configuration by the US military.  The middle pic with single hard point is the more common set-up.

 Your family are right!!!I hope to see a NS guys  over my city as soon as posible, is these happening, I will aproach it to a landscape, welcome these guys, excuse my people and will invite a double chesse Big Mac!!!! Excuse me but.....I feel so shame about it to the United Stated people, EEUU is a great country with a great people, I was a paramedic/ helitactic crew  and worked in La Guaira inundation, (Caracas, Venezuela)  a army blackhawk take my wife and me from  Maiquetia airport to a golf camp in Los Corales, I worked tree days in a  helitactic operations, aproach and go the diferents helicopter to evacuated the people,  I see a USA GI working hard to evacuated the people and suply food and medicine !!!!! Ch. is the worst nigtmare to my country!!!!

you have a great woman!!! with a strong temper!

no truer words, have ever been spoke......

Notice that both the heavy DAP photos show a SOAR Blackhawk with no plume detectors. This would lead me to believe that the configuration was tested in the early 90's but dropped, probably because of weight and time on target issues. I do know that the heavy DAP configuration wasn't operationally used (at least not in Desert Storm, Haiti, Somalia, Afghanistan and Iraq). That being said, a heavy DAP would look very cool next to a vanilla MH-60L.