UH-72A Lakota

I know it's not in line with traditional American mil copters, but I kind of like it. The few new ones that Fort Irwin has have popped up here and there already. A friend of mine got a good shot of one at Edwards the other day. It had a red cross on the side doors. Apparently they decided to use them in support for the space shuttle. I was watching on TV after it landed and noticed three 60's from the RedHawks in the background doing security, along with one of the new 72s. They all flew off in a line back to Irwin when they were done.

Dave
www.TheNorthSpin.com
Dedicated to Aircraft Flight Test for the Aviation Enthusiast

Understand your concerns with the -72.  I think you're dead-on.  (disclaimer - that's just my personal thoughts.  I do not speak for anyone in DOD).  What it was really all about was the States complaining that the UH-60 was eating their lunch on operational costs in NG (non-combat) ops.  You don't need a Blackhawk if you're only kicking hay out the door for stranded cows or pulling flood victims off rooftops.  As for ARH, the word I'm getting from here is that the idea of using the Lakota as an ARH was considered and rejected.  The decision from DOD is to go forward with Bell and the current program.  They're trying to figure out how to do that now.  For now, it's no longer holding by a thread - it's a going program.

Dan H.

Well, it looks like the 'Ho is holding on by its fingertips.  I honestly don't see the program continuing unless there's some MAJOR restructuring, both on the Army and contractor sides. 

As for the -72, sure its a great civilian helicopter.  Never argued against that.  But with the 'Ho in jeopardy now, they're ALREADY talking about pressing it into the scout/light attack role.  I'm sorry, but any advantage that thing had for maneuverability is going out the window the second they start hanging sensors, weapons and armor on it.  I'm sure if the Apache didn't have all of the self protection systems, armor, self sealing tanks and weapons systems, it'd out-maneuver the Lakota in a heartbeat.  We're still pretty maneuverable and I can use that maneuverability to put my gun/rockets where I want em. 

My argument has not been with the Lakota at all.  Its been with the shortsightedness that has pigeonholed it into a "non-deployable asset" role, in an environment where we need helicopters that can deploy.  It just seemed to me that the -72 is still just a civilian helicopter, even if you paint "US Army" on the tailboom (they can't fit UNITED STATES ARMY on the -72's tailboom, its too short!)

Ok...  goin to take a nap now....

Jon

I think y'all got the indian name thing covered, one note on the ARH - yes, Arapaho is the rumored name that's been chosen.  We can't help but think of all the pilots who will be known as 'Ho Drivers.....

On the UH-72, yes, it looks a little odd,  but it's a little hot rod.  Dynamic systems are derived from the MBB / Kawasaki BK-117 (son of MBB BO-105).  Unless they severely screwed it up in the transition, that baby is fully aerobatic - you can call it ugly, but it will do barrel rolls around your Apache all day long.  I had a BK-117 for use in helicopter air-to-air trials in the '80s.  Cruise was only about 135, but loops and rolls were no trouble at all.  The MBB test pilot told me he could hold it in inverted forward level flight (-1g), and the only limitation was that the fuel system wasn't built for inverted, and the engines would starve out after about 4 seconds.

I wonder what kind of neat tricks the ARNG aviators will do once they figure out what it's capable of.....

Dan H.

Welcome 60MTPGal! 

Good to have another Army Aviator on here!  You're in good company.  We've got pretty much all the services covered here and a depth of knowledge and modeling skill that's really incredible.

Take care, and welcome aboard!

Jon

Hey Chief and the rest of you!  Just joined up and noticed the questions regarding the naming of the BlackHawk helo.  If you have ever seen the logo - it is a black hawk bird.  The name was actually suggested by their Chief Transmission Design Engineer and it just worked out that the name was supportable from the Native American Tribes to be acceptable to the US Govt.  This is the inside scoop from an ex-Sikorsky empoyee.  So, now you all know the rest of the story!!

Happy Hovering

 It ismost commonly pronounced Ky-o-wuh. Rhymes with Iowa.

 But to the People of that nation it is pronounced Key-o-wuh.

        60
 

Cobrahistorian wrote:

Randie, The Cobra was so named for a few reasons, but it had more to do with the lineage of ground attack aircraft that Bell developed during WWII (Airacobra and Kingcobra), coupled with Bell reps having a great deal of interaction with the gun platoon of the 114th Assault Helicopter Company (the Cobras) in Vietnam.     Jon

This, I knew.

Cobrahistorian wrote:

Also, the AH-1 was a development of the UH-1 and not considered its own specific type at that time.  Thus, technically it was still an Iroquois.  HTH Jon

This I didn't.  Thanks, Jon.

Rich,

Its pronounced Ky-o-wa.  

Randie,

The Cobra was so named for a few reasons, but it had more to do with the lineage of ground attack aircraft that Bell developed during WWII (Airacobra and Kingcobra), coupled with Bell reps having a great deal of interaction with the gun platoon of the 114th Assault Helicopter Company (the Cobras) in Vietnam.   Also, the AH-1 was a development of the UH-1 and not considered its own specific type at that time.  Thus, technically it was still an Iroquois. 

HTH

 Jon

richgb wrote:

Thank you Chopperfan. I had no idea there were so many tribes. How do they (US Military) decide after which tribe to name a helicopter? Rich

Why are so many US military helicopters named after Indians ?

Traditionally, Armed Forces choose a subject to give name to its ships, airplanes or vehicles.

The U.S. Army aviation began in Ft. Sill, Oklahoma prior to moving to FT. Rucker, Alabama.

Ft. Sill is located in the heart of many native american reservations and in honor of the location they decided to name helicopters after the various indian tribes. The one exception is the Bell AH-1 Cobra which was named such because the army did not want to offend the native americans by naming a gunship after an indian tribe and have the be percieved as an insult.

Shortly thereafter many tribal leaders inquired as to why the Army stopped naming helicopters after indians. When the reason was explained the leaders stated that there are many aggressive indian tribes that are fit to name a gunship after which was where the Apache, Kiowa warrior, and formerly the Commanche all got thier names from.

Very interesting. many thanks for that. The history of the Native Americans is a facinating subject.

Rich

richgb wrote:

Thank you Chopperfan. I had no idea there were so many tribes. How do they (US Military) decide after which tribe to name a helicopter? Is it some attribute/characteristic of that tribe which can be assimilated across to a particular a/c. eg Apache . To me they conjur up a very aggressive image, an image I admit was probably formed from watching wild west /John Wayne films as a wee nipper, but the name aptly fits the helicopter. Out of interest, I couldn't find the Kiowa tribe. Where were they from (and what is the correct pronounciation?...KYE-O-WAH  or KEE-OH-WAH). Rich

Take a look here.

I hadn't noticed that they were not listed.

Thank you Chopperfan.

I had no idea there were so many tribes. How do they (US Military) decide after which tribe to name a helicopter? Is it some attribute/characteristic of that tribe which can be assimilated across to a particular a/c. eg Apache . To me they conjur up a very aggressive image, an image I admit was probably formed from watching wild west /John Wayne films as a wee nipper, but the name aptly fits the helicopter.

Out of interest, I couldn't find the Kiowa tribe. Where were they from (and what is the correct pronounciation?...KYE-O-WAH  or KEE-OH-WAH).

Rich

richgb wrote:

A very interesting thread. What other Native American tribes' names are left that could be used?  The OH-58 Kiowa doesn't really look like an army helo to me in its civillian state, but tool it up and turn it into a "Thug" and Hey Presto. .....one cool looking chopper. Give the 72 some slack. Put some .50 cal door guns on it, maybe a few rocket pods here and there.... Maybe we could have a GB to see who can come up with the most imaginative model??? Rich

Check this out, Rich.  It might help.

North American Indian Tribes

This list does not list all.  aI know of at least one tribe not listed.  The Tule Indians of California.  Anyway, just thought it woud be easier than listing them all one by one.  Enjoy.

Mac,

Yeah, Anigrand does have a kit of it, but its 72nd only.  Unfortunately the only kits of both the Cheyenne and the Blackhawk are in that diminutive scale, which I just don't wanna build in.  Sooooo... scratchbuilding is pretty much my only option.

As far as the RSRA goes.... its here at Rucker.... and trust me, ya don't wanna see it. 

Jon

 Rich, there are very many. At least a couple of hundred, but most of them, people here in the US, much less anywhere else have even heard of. There are however many more well known ones that have't been used. If I had more time, I would try to name you some, but I have to get going soon. Surely someone will elaborate.

         60
 

A very interesting thread. What other Native American tribes' names are left that could be used?

 The OH-58 Kiowa doesn't really look like an army helo to me in its civillian state, but tool it up and turn it into a "Thug" and Hey Presto. .....one cool looking chopper. Give the 72 some slack. Put some .50 cal door guns on it, maybe a few rocket pods here and there....

Maybe we could have a GB to see who can come up with the most imaginative model???

Rich

They do have an S-67 and at $48 it is at least worth thinking about.
Anigrand S-67 Blackhawk

Mac

Cobrahistorian wrote:

I've been batting around the idea of using a Hasegawa/Revell Germany SH-3 rotor and engines to scratchbuild an AH-3.  That'll be a long time coming, but I still want to do it.

I think Anigrand has a resin kit of the S-67, that might be an easier way (but more expensive)

Interesting (AH-3), cool! I didn't know the army had gotten into the action. Although to be an entrant in AAFSS it would have to have some designation for paper trail purposes...

Here is a shot of the RSRA at the height of it's career, doing rotorless flight for X-wing. While Sikorsky said it would fly as an airplane it had never been attempted, untill this time.

Roger that, Jon

When this thing goes to the boneyard the Huey will still be there to fly the crew home

Chuck,

The S-67 was also known as the AH-3 (since it used the SH-3 rotor system and powertrain). I hadn't made the association between that and the RSRA.  One of the X-wing RSRAs is here at Rucker behind one of the storage buildings.  It is in fairly terrible shape, but restorable from what I know.  

I've been batting around the idea of using a Hasegawa/Revell Germany SH-3 rotor and engines to scratchbuild an AH-3.  That'll be a long time coming, but I still want to do it.

Jon

To add to the confusion...there was also a Sikorsky Black Hawk gunship (S67) which entered the AAFSS competition late in the game (circa 1971) as a "spoiler" against the AH-56. The tandem two place machine was originally painted all black and had a stylized arrow running down the fuselage. The helicopter used the venerable S-61 power train/rotor system, and was quite large. 

The boys from "Igor" campagined the machine around the country at various Army installations but found the Army really wasn't interested. The only prototype met it's fate at an airshow when it was looped into the ground during an effort to sell it to the Saudi's.  (The Black Hawk had been repainted into a desert cammo scheme for the occasion.)

The airframe design was resurrected with a three place cockpit, ejection seats, blade cutters, and all the wires you could want, when Sikorsky won the contract for the two Rotor Systems Research Aircraft (RSRA) at the cost of about 32 megabucks a copy. The machines flew for 10 years and amassed just over a nonspectactular 100 hrs of flight time before being retired.   

grandadjohn wrote:

The Army does have "colorful names" for some of it's aircraft, such as for the Chinook and my name for this new helo "POS"

LOL Good one Grandad!!!!

ridleusmc wrote:

This has turned into an interesting thread.  Does the blackhawk name have anything to do with Native American culture?   Also, in contrast, Marines aren't very creative with naming helo's like Sea Stallion, Sea Horse, Super Sea Stallion, Sea Knight, Huey (from the Army), Cobra (from the Army), Super Cobra... etc.  I perfer the more colorful nicknames like Phrogs, Skids, the four lettered CH-53 nickname, and the very offensive V-22 nicknames.  My favorite is, I know it's not a chopper, The Carolina Lawn Dart for the AV-8B Harrier (or Scarier).   Semper Fi, Chris

Chris, it is Army policy to name it's aircraft afet woodland animals or American Indian tribes or chiefs, there have been exemptions to this policy such as the AH-1 which was named the HueyCobra. The nickname Huey was derived from the original designation HU-1, it's offical name is the Iroquos.

The Army does have "colorful names" for some of it's aircraft, such as for the Chinook and my name for this new helo "POS"

Black Hawk, the leader of a band of Sauk and Fox Indians, fought against the United States Army and militia from Illinois and the Michigan Territory (present-day Wisconsin) for possession of lands in the area.  This was called the Black Hawk War of 1832.

The Black Hawk War was responsible for the end of conflict between settlers and Indians in these states. One of the Illinois militia, Captain Abraham Lincoln, eventually rose to prominence in national politics becoming President of the United States.

There was also a Ute war chief in Utah named Black Hawk who, with a band of Ute, Paiute and Navajo, fought with the Mormons from 1865 until 1872. 

The Black Hawk War was unique among the era's western Indian wars in that the antipathy that existed between the United States government and the LDS Church provided Utah's natives with the opportunity to pursue their hostile activities for an extended period of time without incurring the swift and destructive military reprisals suffered by other groups. Not surprisingly, the war ended almost without incident when federal troops were finally ordered to engage the Indians in 1872.

So, I guess in this case the UH-60 was named for an Indian leader.  Which one, I do not know.

BlackHawk was a Native American of the SAUK tribe. They spoke an Algonquin dialect and were midwestern in location. The BlackHawk war in 1832 is where the name enters history as BlackHawk led the conflict against the usurped sale of their tribal lands. The UH-60 is the only US Army helicopter named after a singular Native American.

Chief Snake