UH-1C Troop Cabin?

Chris,

  The setup you mention was actually quite common on VN gunships.  My father specifically mentioned that he never  saw a bench seat in the cabin of their gunships (190th AHC).  He said that he sat on a single seat that had no back.  It really makes no sense for a gunship to have bench seats since the only crew normally in the cabin is the Crew Chief and Doorgunner.  Also, as you mention , removing the bench seats would facilitate loading of the ammo trays.  Personally, unless you know a gunship had them, I would leave the bench seats off.  I hope that helps.

     Ray

Ray.

As usual you are awesome.Its like anytime I have a question that I just can't find the answer to or am unsure about, there you are with the answer.Thanks amillion and just know how much I really appriciate it.I will continue on with my modifacation of the kits cabin area.

                                  My sincere thanks,Chris

Chris,

  Your welcome, but I like to back up my talk with evidence. So here you go.

First off, here is a 120 Razorback gunship showing the seat arrangement I mentioned above (a sigle platform seat on each side with no back).  Notice, by the way, that the soundproofing is gone from the aft cabin wall.  this was a very common practice as well.

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You can see the crossbraces on the seats.  Even in photos where the whole seat is not visible, the cross braces mean it's not a bench seat.  Here is a gunship from the 71st AHC 68-69 that shows a bench seat:

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So fom these two pics its obvious that both styles were used.  I have numerous other unit pics that show that the single seats were more comon in gunships.  The question is which kind did Sexy Snake have.  Well, here are some pics of 114th gunships:

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Ok, by now your probably getting concerned, but I found this last pic which is positively identified as Sexy Snake:

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You can clearly see the crossbracing which demostrates that she had the single seats for Crew Chief and Dorgunner just like the first one I posted.  My conclusion based on looking at lots of pics is that early gunships had the bench seats.  By the time my father entered the war (68-69) almost all of these had been replaced with the single seats.  If you look at almost every gunship with bench seats, they have red webbing.  This was a halmark of early Hueys.  At any rate, you can rest easy knowing that Sexy Snake had the single seats.

   Ray
 

Ray,

What else can I say except thanks!!!I had concluded from looking at some earlier pics you posted, that Sexy Snake did indeed have the single seats arrangement.The additional pics you sent only confirm this ,but man what a seroius file of knowledge and education  I have in my head and my computer thanks to you.Yes you have answered my many questions, but I doubt I could have learned as many facts and little tidbits of great knowledge and small details had you not taken the time to send all the great pics and also all the informitive narration as well.I get stuck in the small details of modeling a subject sometimes but what a great place to get stuck!!!Thanks man. I hate to say it cause I always seem to have to eat my own words, but should have some cabin pics up soon.Must sleep now!Talk to ya soon. Chris

Mel,

  funny you emntion the attchment points because my dad said he rememebered the seat did have attachment points.  this came up when we were at Ft. Rucker and we were looking at the early B model they have on display.  That bird didn't have attchment points near the door as you can see here (also lacks holes for ammo chutes).

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However, we went out to the storage building and found another UH-1B that did have an attachment point near the door. 

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It looks like there are three possible attachment points here as opposed to the ship above.  Maybe dad's memory is faulty, but he definitely rememebrs his seat attching to the floor in multiple places.  I know this is probably going over the top as far as detail goes, but it is interesting.  

     Ray
 

The "jump" seat was not made to replace the bench seat, but to be used in the forward portion of the cargo area has seen in the photo's, so the attachment points along the rear bulkhead did not match the seat.

Also the soundproofing was left off on a lot of birds to ease maintenance, because you could easily fly enough in two day's to put it in for the 25 hour inspections

Soundproofing.

A one word defininition of pain in the posterior!!

David

Mel,

  Two things. First, which attchment point was the "jump set" locked into?  Second, got any good pics of it on one of your old birds? 

Grandad,

  You also really don't need soundproofing if you never close the doors!  Aslo, my father's unit regularly removed the pilots and copilots doors so there was no way to ever close off the cabin.

   Thanks,

         Ray
 

Hey all.I was wondering if anyone has a drawing from a manual or a clear pic of the rear bulkhead in the UH-1C cabin.There are some details that I would like to add but cant make them out clearly in most pics that I have access to. Thanks,Chris

Ray,

I doubt if I have any pictures of the "jump" seats that would show which leg was locked to the floor but would guess it would be the aft outside.  I do know where a couple of "Mike" models and a "Hotel" are stored but haven't had the opportunity to go take some more detail pictures. 

Mel and Grandad,

  I just got off the phone with my dad.  He is all but certain that his seat attached at multiple points to the floor.  He has no recollection of ever using the seat belt attachment points on the aft wall.  He seems pretty clear about this particular point.  Perhaps newer gunships were configured at the factory with the requisite attachment pionts later in the war.  I do not doubt that all three of you did it the way you say you did, but I would like to know when, where, and how they were different.  I guess I'll have to go back to Rucker and place the seats myself and see.  One thing I know for sure is that some birds had attachment points near the door and some did not.  My new motto: "MORE RESEARCH!"

    Ray
 

Chris,

  This is the best I could do for unobstructed pics of the aft cabin wall.  This is a 71st AHC Firebird UH-1B that was restored to VN configuration:

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Although this is a B model it should be essentially identical to a Charlie model with regrd to the aft cabin wall.  here is another pic of a 71st gunner showing the ft wall without the oundproofing:

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Unfortunately, the pics I took t Rucker do not show the aft wall unobstructed.  I think I may be able to dig up a few more if you need them.  Will you be modeling the soundproofing or not?

Ray 

Guys,

I did some research on gunners ''jump seat'' attachment points and I believe Ray and his Dad are right on this one. I even checked my 1968 UH-1C operator's manual and the diagram of attachment points clearly shows there are three in the positions where jump seat legs would attach. Some images I studied also suggest that legs on jump seats could be adjusted, that is moved an inch or two in outward/inward direction to match different attachment point positions (not 100% sure of that). It is, however, interesting that in some pictures of Vietnam UH-1Cs gunners jump seats were in fact secured to the aft bulkhead. I do think that most of UH-1B/C/Ms in Vietnam had three attachment points in gunners position though. Once again we come to see there were many, many variations of even such seemingly straight-forward things as gunners seats in Vietnam. Yes, more research :)

Chris, I can scan the UH-1C attachment points diagram for You, if You think it may help Your build.

Marko 

Hey Ray,

Thanks for the pics.Yes I will be modeling the sound proofing because the very few pics that show any of the cabin at all on Sexy Snake show it to be present ,even though it was probably removed at some time.What Iam having trouble determining is if you look at the rear cabin wall you can see 2 small circles about half way up on each side of the wall.Is this number correct or are there more and I believe these have small circular metal o-ring turn buckle type things in them like the numerous ones on the floor for securing cargo and what have you.Obviously I dont know the proper name for these but I hope from my description you know what I am talking about.Anyway having a difficult time modeling  these and getting them to look right,any ideas? I will not be back on here until tommorow night so I will see what you have to say about these then,Chris

The two circles you see are the blanket reinforcements around the opening for an eye bolt/ring to screw into the bulkhead.  The floor rings were a little different having a swivel pin.   As in the pictures the CE and GN usually had Smoke grenades hanging on a wire stretched between them.  Sometimes the eye bolt/rings were scarce and a short bolt was used and wire attached to it.   Not sure if there were more on the B, C, or M.   The D and H's had a bunch on the rear and side bulkheads.  On the jump seat attachments, the legs had to be eactly vertical for them to attach to the floor.  The slip up/down locking ring could be a real pain.  The slightess amount of dirt or sand made it extremely difficult to lock down.  So there may have been three attachment points on later "C's" and "M's" but the difficulty getting to them may have resulted in just using the seat belt attachment points and outer rear leg attachment point.   

Marko,

  So you have the Charlie Dash 10 from 1968?  I am having that document scanned as we speak.  I have the one for the Charlie/Mike from 1980, but I think the diagram you mentioned has been removed.  You have to be careful with manual diagrams, by the way.  They sometimes recycle the more generic ones.  You can find B model diagrams in some of the Charlie manuals. I would personally like to se the scan, though.

Mel,

  I'm glad you remember those bulkhead attachment points, the B model I scrutinized at Rucker didn't sem to have as many as the later B's.  Dad and I looked all over for the place where the monkey belt clips in on that bird.  Maybe it was because the bench seat was in the way.  Thanks for all the info.
 

        Ray

Chris,

  This is the best I can do for aft bulkhead attchment points:

 Pic 1

 Dad thought the two rings you can see on either edge of the bench seats were the most likely points for the monkey belt to clip into.  However, he wasn't 100% sure.  Mel or Grandad, what's the small rectanglular attachment point directly behid the center of the bench seat for?  You can also see the four ammo boxes this bird has.

Pic 2 

Pic 3

This pic shows one of the seat belt attachment points.  Sorry, I forgot to move my hat and notebook for this shot! 

Pic 4

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 Here are the attachment points on the floor.

Pic 5

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The jump seat in place in the cabin.

Pic 6 

 This last one shows the seat belt attached.  You can also see part of the jump set to the left.  I dug out my notebook and the jump seat measurements are as follows:

Main legs: 12in. high, ~.78 in. diameter

crossbraces: 16 in. long, ~.5 in. diameter

Seat dimensions: 15.75 in. deep x 18.75 in. wide

Seat back height: 24 3/8 inches

Well, that's about all I got I'm afraid.  I have numbered the pics so anyone can comment on specific ones.  I hope that helps.

  Ray
 

Best I can tell from the photo is I think that rectangle bracket is an attacthment point for the bench seat.

Please note Veitnam a/c were the only ones that had the soundproofing and doors open or removed. In Korea it was to darn cold to leave to have them open in the winter

Grandad,

  I hear ya about the doors.  The bird above is clearly not designed for guns as you can see that the door HAD to be open for the ammo chutes to go though,  In fact, this is one of the two TOW birds that flew in VN.  Do you have any pics of your ships from Korea?  If so, I know I'd love to see 'em.

     Ray

Hey guys,

I would have never guessed when I started this post there would be so much interest.Thanks so much and keep the info coming!I should be able to post some pics of my cabin progress soon and you guys can critique the accuracy of what I have done.Waiting to borrow my moms high dollar digital camera to take some good shots.Thanks again for all the info,and again If you have them,Marko I would love to see any diagrams you have of the area in question.Chris

Hello Guys!

Uf, they are really keeping me busy at work lately, so I haven't been able to post as many replies as I wanted. Well anyway, here are the attachment points diagrams from 1968 UH-1C operator's manual:

Now, this diagram is not drawn in scale, so You have to use the F.S. values (in inches) to calculate the exact position of the attachment points. You will notice there are three attachment points in gunners positions:

To make determining the exact location of attachment points easier, I also include a diagram showing the installation of internal rescue hoist; here You can find F.S. values for aft bulkhead and door post-using this values You will be able to locate all attachment points accurately :)

Mel, I believe legs on jump seats could be adjusted to some extent and still be completely vertical (perpendicular) to the floor. I think the following image is the proof of that; note how the left leg is the inner most position and the right leg is in the outer most position. I believe sliding legs inward or outward made fitting the jump seat to different attachment points possible-all within given limits of course :)

Ray, great interior shots by the way!!!

Marko 

Mel,

  I believe you put the seats in the way you say, I just also figure my dad did it the way he said as well.  I would LOVE to see pics of the seat in place.  I have plans to do that myself at the earliest possible convenience.  I look forward to whatever you find!

             Ray 

Hi Mel,

I've read your interesting discussions about the Hueys, in particular about the UH-1C, that I'm going to build in 1:72 scale (Italeri) and that I want to insert into a Vietnam diorama. To this purpose I would like to konw if the Gunship Heli UH-1C of the US Navy HA(L)-3 (Bin Thuy, 1970) was equipped with an M60 machine gun hanging from the ceiling. Can you help me?

Regards

Vincenzo

Vincenzo,

I'm not an authority on the Navy Hal 3 birds.  Also not at home to look through any refferences to try and help you out.  Maybe some of the other guys out there can help you.  Good luck with your build!