Calling All Army Huey Doorgun Experts

Steve,

  I like the shiny version too.  Problem is, so did the VC!  Lots of nice shiny aming points!  I think it would be cool to have a flight sim that took you through the Vietnam war with one unit where you got to see the birds evolve thrughout the war.  I have a feeling that the appeal would be limited, however!  

    Ray
 

 By the way, I guess the pattern I meant was that early in the war, all kinds of configurations were tried and your likely to see ANYTHING.  By 70-72 things were somewhat more standardized and many of the units seem to have had a common SOP for their birds.  Admittedly, it's just based on pics, but that's my impression.

Well Ray, we will just have to THRASH you for not having MORE photos!!!!!!! 

I picked up on that pattern also.  I mean why carry that stupid door around pinned back all the time just to have to un-pin it to get gas.  "Ditch the sucker!"  I will say that if you've ever ridden in that back cubby hole seat with the door closed, it was very confining. 

I kinda like the Shiny version myself.    

Regards
Steve

Mel,

  Glad you weighed in on this one.  I knew you would know what the standard was, at least for '71-72.  I have been doing a little research on this question and based on the photos I have, I think I may have found a pattern. As you may have guessed, whether the doors were open or closed during flight is not, so far as I can tell, the subject of any major works on Vietnam helos.  So I did what I always do in these situations and looked at photos from all the units I have pics from.  OF course, most pics show the doors open in flight so there's no need to post those.  However, there are a couple of interesting ones I found:

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This is a UH-D flying in the Mekong Delta in April of '66.  You will note that the ship is in high vis markings and has no M23 mount.  Also notice that the picture was taken out of the window of another bird so both were flying with doors closed.  That means that it's probably not just a C&C ship with the doors closed.

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A 155th UH-1H from 1969 flying with the doors closed and the M23 mount in place.

These were the only two I had available that showed flying D/H models with doors closed.  Admittedly I have many more pics of gunships than slicks, but these were all I could find.  There were NO photos that I could find from 70-72 that showed closed doors in flight. also, there is no way to know if these birds were going the LZ or coming back.  Did you close the doors on the ride back, Mel?

Finally, for Steve I found this picture of a 121st AHC standard Slick with NO DOORS at all!!

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I admit it aint much, but its what I got.

Ray 

Mel,

Thats the time period I'm looking for.  I thank you for you input.  I thank you for your service then also. 

The discussion brought up the issue of loosing a cargo door in flight.  I think the issue is when the doors in between closed and locked open.  That is when it is the most vulnerable, hense the speed restriction.  You dont want to "loose" a big piece of junk in a rapid descent as it will likely "float" up into the rotorhead (or worse, the tailrotor).  I believe that the door is the "Strongest" in the open and locked position for all the reasons that you state Mel.

Your point about not being able to "get to" the M60s tells me all I need to know for my project.  They will be open.  They "Might" be off all together as they now become an "issue" for quick refueling.  Starboard door covers the gas cap when pinned open.

Thanks again Mel

Regards
Steve

I was in Nam in June of 1971 until April of 1972 and we flew with the main cargo doors "pinned" back.  There was a door retention kit that had a pin on the rear bulkhead that fit into a large "L" bracket on the forward edge of the door and a pin went through it to secure it.  You can see this in the last few pictures posted in this thread with the chain hanging down with the pin.  The rear edge of the cargo door was "trapped" by two brackets that were bolted into the two tracks at the edge of the tailboom.  I don't know when this "kit" first came out but it was virtually impossilble to lose a cargo door with it "pinned" in the open position.  I saw very few "slicks" flown with the main cargo doors closed.  You couldn't get to the M-60's unless you had the aft window out of the main cargo door.  These were usally VIP birds.  Only other exception to flying with the doors closed were the Medevac's.  If the weather was bad you just got cold and wet with the doors open. 

Well, there are always local "commander rules and regulations".  The Marines open the door on short final even today.  Have seen the Army do the same.  One of the Crew Chief's jobs is to clear the tail going into the LZ. 

There is a 40 Kt limitation for opening the cargo door in flight.  If the airpressure blew the door off in flight, the only thing that would really "concern" me is if it should hit the tailrotor as it ambled by (and that would NOT be a good thing).  If in a strong decent, then there is a good possiblity that the door would go up through the rotor system.  And even then I would be more worried about the A** chewing from the boss when i got back.  Those blades can cut down thick trees.

I have witnessed ALL the transmission and engine cowlings just "Disappear" in flight off of one of our UH-1Es.  The only damage was to egos.  There was one SMALL nick in the tailrotor as the junk passed by.  They were very lucky.

Regards
Steve

rotorwash wrote:

Grandad,   Any chance that the guys in VN didn't follow regs?  I swear one of the slick guys told me about closing the doors during formation flight to the LZ but opening them during the descent.  However, I could be wrong.      Ray

 

Some may have, but I never did. Was a big todo about it after a few crashes caused by opening the door in-flight. The only time I ever cracked the door was to see the ground while hovering to land(just a couple of feet) and then only when dust or snow was blowing making visability difficult.

Hatter sorry, I didn't catch the humor but I was tired at the time

 

Hey Granddadjohn,

I realize that my 1/64" aluminum sheetmetal  barely stops the wind.    That was attempt at humor.    Besides, I was talking about the bullet bouncing 1/100 thick aluminum sheetmetal pilot's door.  And if you drop the glass, one gets 1/8 inch of added plastic armor. 

It was within regs to open the cargo door on short final or at altitude with a less than 40 KT restriction.   I do acknowledge that there may need to be some suppression fire before that "short final" point is achieved and it's a pain in the neck to open and pin in flight.  Hence, pinned back or off to begin with.  And if your going to pin it back and haul it around, might as well save the weight and carry 2 more bullets. 

I was just trying to figure out what the "general" standard was for the time. 

Regards
Steve

Grandad,

  Any chance that the guys in VN didn't follow regs?  I swear one of the slick guys told me about closing the doors during formation flight to the LZ but opening them during the descent.  However, I could be wrong. 

    Ray
 

Hatter50 wrote:

Hey Ray, Thanks for the input.  I knew I'd get your attention.  My big question was the mount.  You answered that one.  Cold?  Oh yes at 3000 ft, gets a bit chilly.  I understand about Commander's wishes.  Was just trying to get a feel for what the semi-standard was.   Personally, I kinda liked my "thick" bullet bouncer aluminum door nailed on.  Something to hide behind. And you guessed it, no scale.  Another 3D project.  The "E" slowed down to a crawl.  An early 70s "H" is moving. But thanks again.  The Huey commentary has slowed down to a crawl here also.  Need a few "grenades thrown". Regards Steve

 

Just a note on the doors, it was against regs to open the door in-flight, they had a bad habit of coming off and making you a big smoking hole in the ground. You either flew with them open or closed, if closed you opened upon landing. The air temp at 3000ft is only a few degrees cooler than on the ground and when it's 100 degrees or so, the cooler air feels good. And they offered very little in protection from bullets, the skin isn't that thick and besides they knew where to shoot at you anyway.

 

 

PS: this is my 3,000 post

Steve,

  I figured as much.  Just for completeness, here is a "walkaround" of the M23 mount on a UH-1H.

Ray 

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Hey Ray,

Thanks for the input.  I knew I'd get your attention.  My big question was the mount.  You answered that one.  Cold?  Oh yes at 3000 ft, gets a bit chilly.  I understand about Commander's wishes.  Was just trying to get a feel for what the semi-standard was.   Personally, I kinda liked my "thick" bullet bouncer aluminum door nailed on.  Something to hide behind.

And you guessed it, no scale.  Another 3D project.  The "E" slowed down to a crawl.  An early 70s "H" is moving.

But thanks again.  The Huey commentary has slowed down to a crawl here also.  Need a few "grenades thrown".

Regards
Steve

Steve,

  There was no single SOP regarding doors (what a surprise, huh).  Some units removed the pilot/copilot's doors (for quick ergress after a crash) and some removed only the cabin doors (usually to lighten the ship).  It seems to me that the ones without cabin doors are usually special ops birds (Nighthawks, sprayers, etc.)  A few even removed both the pilot/cpilot doors and the cabin doors.  It all depends on the individual unit and the timeframe.  Most pics I have of UH-1D/H's show all the doors on, but the cabin doors open.  However, leaving the cabin door on allowed it to be closed during the flight to the LZ when the ships flew at altitude (it get's cold up there).  Dad flew mainly in gunships and in his unit (190th AHC) during '68-'69 they flew with no pilot/copilot doors but with cabin doors.  Check the Seawolves page for pics of their birds.  Some HA(L)-3 birds flew without any doors, both to lighten the ship and allow for a quick exit since they flew over water all the time. Of course, they didn't fly D's or H's.  I hope that helps.  Any idea which unit your going with?  What scale?

    Ray

 Here's a special ops bird (defoliant sprayer) with no cabin doors:

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Another sprayer without cabin doors:

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A Nighthawk without cabin doors:

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Here's a HA(L)-3 bird sans doors from DET 1:

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 Yet another HA(L)-3 bird sans doors:

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I'm building the UH-1H 1970ish.

Looks like the M23 and M60D is what I am going to be doing.  Thanks Ray for those pics.  I have a diagram of the M23 minus weapons.

Ray, what's your dad have to say about cargo doors ON or OFF?  LOL or does the answer depend on if its the "rainy" season or the "dry" season? 

Regards
Steve

 

Steve,

  As Gino said, you're looking for the M23 subsystem which was used with the M60D.  I have the pics from the UH-1D dash 10 at home and I'll post them later today.  Mel or some of the other guys probably have great pics as well. In the meantime here are a couple of pics of the M23 mount (without the gun) on a UH-1H.

   Here's a pic from th back:

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Here's a pic from the side:

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The doorgunner sat in the seat behind the gun mount and was attached to the airframe via the "monkey harness."  Since Mel actually did the job, perhaps he or Grandadjohn are better equipped to describe the setup than I.  The M23 system was already in use by 1966 and was the standard doorgun mount for the UH-1D/H throughout the war.  As you probably have seen on these pages, however, there were lots of different modifications and alternate gun setups used throughout the course of the war.  Although I have seen free M60A's n a bungee used in a Uh-1D/H.  The bungee suspended guns were mostly used on gunships (UH-1B, C, M's).  The only major battle I am aware of where M23 equipped UH-1D/H's aren't seen is the Ia Drang battle in '65, but they were intoduced in country shortly after.  Very early in the conflict (before '64 I'd say), UH-1B's were used as slicks, and these birds mounted the M60A on a Sagami mount which could be swung out and away from the door for troops to exit.  I'm sure someone here knows the exact time frame when the M23 was introduced, but that should bracket it pretty well.  What exactly are you building?

    Ray
 

The M60 Doorgun setup is called an M23 mount.  It is correct to have one on either side of the helo at the rear of the door position.  What scale are you building in?  Cobra Company has M23 mounts with guns in 1/48, 1/35, and 1/32.  Dragon also has one mount in its Vietnam Helo Crew set in 1/35.

Check this site for more info on the M23 mount (scroll down to M23).

Look at this thread to see the differences between a D and H model as well.

Hope that answers your questions.