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Marine Corps Cobras

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  • Member since
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  • From: usa
Marine Corps Cobras
Posted by hawkwrench on Sunday, February 17, 2008 8:44 AM

Are the AH-1T and the AH-1W cobras basically the same or what's the difference?I have a AH-1T model I would like to build as a AH-1W with Two Bobs Decals.Will it be a easy build or is their alot of changes to make it a Whiskey model?

2/82nd Aviation Battalion"When you absolutely need to be there RIGHT NOW!!!
  • Member since
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  • From: Alabamastan
Posted by JosephOsborn on Sunday, February 17, 2008 9:52 AM
Basically the same.  The biggest external difference is the engine package; the W's engines are twice the size of the T's, so the engine housings are radically different.  It would be somewhat useless to attempt to convert a T model kit to represent a W because there are W kits available.  Now, if you have the 1/35 MRC AH-1T+ "Gold Cobra" kit, you can proceed with your plan because that kit is supposed to be the precursor to the AH-1W, but in fact it is the exact same plastic as the regular MRC AH-1W kit.
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  • From: Glue and paint smeared bench, in La La Land
Posted by dahut on Sunday, February 17, 2008 9:58 AM

Good question - I dunno. If it's like anything else, there are probably a lot of changes, with little that are outright glaring, except to the trained eye. Here's my "4 Rules for Modeling Sanity, which may help:

1. Absolute Perfection is un-achievable in miniature.   You can get close, but that's it.

2. Critics always abound, the worst of which is yourself.   Relax. This is fun, remember? Have a beer.

3. Few people, if any, will ever notice a missing part, paint goofs, or the Nth detail you didn't add.

4. If by a random act of chance someone does notice, simply shrug and refer them to Rule #1.

With that being said, could you build it as a "T" model, instead? Here's what globalsecurity.com says about the "Tango":

"With increasing demands for higher performance, particularly greater load-carrying capability in high temperature conditions, Bell developed improved dynamic components for the Huey series. Application of these components, which included a larger diameter rotor, led to the 309 attack helo in the early Seventies. This allowed an increased payload, providing more combat capability. The subsequent Marine-ordered version of the King Cobra was designated the AH-1T.

The United States Marine Corps (USMC) had identified a need for more armaments; thus, the AH-1T upgrade was initiated. This aircraft had an extended tailboom and fuselage and an upgraded transmission and engines. In addition to the modifications for improved combat effectiveness, major efforts were made to incorporate the lessons of the Cobra experience in achieving greater reliability and maintainability. With the TOW missile system added to its weapons, the AH-1T gave Marines a ground attack capability far beyond that first envisioned by their predecessors who took the first Marine Huey Cobras into combat in the late 1960s.

The AH-1T is fully capable of performing its attack mission in all weather conditions. Additional missions include direct air support, antitank, armed escort, and air to air combat. The TOW missile targeting system uses a telescopic sight unit (traverse 110º, elevation 60º/+30º), a laser augmented tracking capability, thermal sights and a FLIR to allow for acquisition, launch, and tracking of all types of TOW missiles in all weather conditions. The Cobra also uses a digital ballistic computer, a HUD, Doppler nav, and a low speed air data sensor on the starboard side for firing, and has in-flight boresighting. External stores are mounted on underwing external stores points. Each wing has two hardpoints for a total of four stations. A representative mix when targeting armor formations would be eight TOW missiles, two 2.75-in rocket pods, and 750x 20-mm rounds. The gun must be centered before firing underwing stores. Armored cockpit can withstand small arms fire, and composite blades and tailboom are able withstand damage from 23-mm cannon hits.small arms fire, and composite blades and tailboom able to withstand damage from 23-mm cannon hits."

Heres a nice build review of a USN/USMC AH-1T, 1/72 :

http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/mod/dorrah1t.htm

A small blueprint:

http://www.the-blueprints.com/index.php?blueprints/modernplanes/helicopters-a-b/5327/view/

All in all, the Tango looks like a Cobra to me. I say build up the Tango, as is.

Cheers, David
  • Member since
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  • From: usa
Posted by hawkwrench on Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:10 PM

Sorry,I guess I should have mentioned that I'm using the "Gold Cobra" as the basis for the build.I'd rather build a camo'd cobra(they just look to cool)than the gold one.If I do go ahead and build the T model,who has tango decals?

2/82nd Aviation Battalion"When you absolutely need to be there RIGHT NOW!!!
  • Member since
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  • From: Alabamastan
Posted by JosephOsborn on Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:29 PM
The "Gold Cobra" is not an AH-1T, it is an AH-1T+ (Bell's name), which was officially designated AH-1W when adopted by the USMC.  You are safe to build the model from the kit and use some of the decals from the Two Bobs set.  I suggest a Desert Storm scheme-- the model depicts that configuration pretty well and the markings are austere.   The latter two-tone gray examples need to have several modifications to be accurate.  The USMC upgraded these machines several times from the early '90s to now, so careful research has to be done in order to get all the details correct.  With a Desert Storm model, there is much less work required to get an accurate model. 
All opinions are Certified Snark-free
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  • From: Houston, Texas
Posted by empeter on Sunday, February 17, 2008 1:48 PM
 dahut wrote:

http://www.the-blueprints.com/index.php?blueprints/modernplanes/helicopters-a-b/5327/view/

All in all, the Tango looks like a Cobra to me. I say build up the Tango, as is.

I could be wrong, but that drawing looks like an AH-1F to me.

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  • From: Glue and paint smeared bench, in La La Land
Posted by dahut on Sunday, February 17, 2008 4:08 PM
Could be, empeter. I'm not overly pedantic about these things and don't know a Cobra from a whipsnake. I googled "AH-1T" and got that, labeled as such.
Cheers, David
  • Member since
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  • From: Modeling anything with "MARINES" on the side.
Posted by AH1Wsnake on Sunday, February 17, 2008 7:38 PM

"Modeling sanity" rules aside, there is a huge difference between the AH-1T and AH-1W. Gotta love Google scholars.

Thankfully, MRC's AH-1T+ (the 'plus' designation is key, here) is the exact same molding as their AH-1W kit. So yes, you are safe to use their version of a "T" to build a W. (In no way does this kit actually represent the AH-1T, unless you want to make a scratchbuilding project of the engine and doghouse assemblies.)

If we were talking Italeri's 1/48 scale models, that wouldn't be the case. They actually have two different mold sets for the differing parts on the T and W.

Andy

(and yes, the link above most certainly is a mislabeled Army AH-1F/S)

 

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and those who have met them in battle. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."
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  • From: Glue and paint smeared bench, in La La Land
Posted by dahut on Sunday, February 17, 2008 9:23 PM

Yeah, isn't google great? It gives those who may not know everything a chance to both learn and share information with others. It also gives those who believe they do know everything the chance to act like it. It's a win-win! 

But, unless I mis-read it, I think our man Osborn has hit it: hawkwrenches "Gold T" will do up a Whiskey model. Thanks for sharing, folks.

Cheers, David
  • Member since
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  • From: Modeling anything with "MARINES" on the side.
Posted by AH1Wsnake on Sunday, February 17, 2008 10:50 PM

Yep, I love it. Especially when those with little or no personal knowledge of a technical topic can feel qualified to offer advice based on a few mouse clicks that list inaccurate information and mislabeled drawings.

Then again, you can always pass off major airframe changes as something that isn't "outright glaring," and noticible only to the "trained eye."

 

 

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and those who have met them in battle. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."
  • Member since
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  • From: Glue and paint smeared bench, in La La Land
Posted by dahut on Monday, February 18, 2008 6:40 AM

Of course there is the risk that someone will indeed get something wrong. It does happen on occasion, innocently enough. Then, those who are in the know will have yet another opportunity to crudely impress others (or not) with their pedantic lore. Yet again, everone learns something.

Aint it grand?

Cheers, David
  • Member since
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  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Monday, February 18, 2008 6:49 AM

Uhhhh. yeah... that's an AH-1F. 

Build the T+ as a W, that's what it is.  As Joseph said, the engine package is completely different on the T and if you're looking to build a true Tango, you've got a LOT of scratchbuilding to do.  

I've got a Tango in 48th in the early stages of building right now.  

I think what Andy was trying to say is that there are several subject matter experts on this (and several other boards) that have the requested information.  Websites like Globalsecurity.org and Wikipedia are good starting points, but quite often have incorrect and outrageous bits of "information" (like that AH-1F 3-view claiming to be an AH-1T).  Those of us who do have the information are quite often willing to share as much as we can.  It just gets frustrating sometimes when incorrect information gets quoted as "fact" and people defend it as the "truth" because it was put in print.

In any case, it is good to see Snakes under construction, post some pics!

 

Jon 

"1-6 is in hot"
  • Member since
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  • From: Modeling anything with "MARINES" on the side.
Posted by AH1Wsnake on Monday, February 18, 2008 6:53 AM

I'll bet that the guys asking questions appreciate the "lore" of accuracy over essays dismissing it. For that reason, I guess we should all stick to what we know.

Hawkwrench! Keep us updated with your progress!

 

 

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and those who have met them in battle. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."
  • Member since
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  • From: Glue and paint smeared bench, in La La Land
Posted by dahut on Monday, February 18, 2008 8:10 AM

I think what Andy was trying to say is that there are several subject matter experts on this (and several other boards) that have the requested information.  Websites like Globalsecurity.org and Wikipedia are good starting points, but quite often have incorrect and outrageous bits of "information" (like that AH-1F 3-view claiming to be an AH-1T).  Those of us who do have the information are quite often willing to share as much as we can.  It just gets frustrating sometimes when incorrect information gets quoted as "fact" and people defend it as the "truth" because it was put in print.

Well phrased. Snake was trying to say the same thing, in his irascible way. Mistakes creep in and not everyone knows everything. That's how it is. I'm no expert and made no claims to that, only shared what I had found. Apparently you got that I'm not a reporter and am unable to verify everything - and this is not USA Today. How many kit makers get it wrong as well?

One can do as you quite tactfully say, CH - allow someone to make a mistake and then use these things as starting points. Has someone gone back to the line view and politely let the site owners know they're wrong? So far I've only heard complaints about me posting it. Life is full of frustrations...

For a moment, let's say that a mistake is made. And someone other than the illuminati, here, see's it. What will be the outcome? The Collapse Of Civilization, perhaps? Naw, the viewer will look at it and go, "Oh, thats nice..." They think a tango is some sort of dance step. Been there, done that, have the T-shirt.

That's why the tongue-in-cheek attitude about all this. This is a microcosm - an infinitely small group suspected by most of being grown men playing with toys. Frankly, they're right. Let's laugh more and take ourselves a little less seriously, or our eccentricities will get the better of us. Thanks for helping.

Cheers, David
  • Member since
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  • From: Modeling anything with "MARINES" on the side.
Posted by AH1Wsnake on Monday, February 18, 2008 8:26 AM

Hawkwrench! Keep us updated with your progress!

 

 

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and those who have met them in battle. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."
  • Member since
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  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Monday, February 18, 2008 8:36 AM

David,

I think the irritation wasn't with you, per se, but with the piece posted from Globalsecurity.  While they can be a decent source of information at times, I've just now read the entire thing and other than the fact that current Cobras have a firepower capability only dreamt about when Marines first took the Cobra into combat in the late 60s (after the Army had been flying them in-country for two years, I might add Wink [;)]), it is COMPLETELY wrong. 

That's not a knock against you.  It is a knock against a perceived authority reporting on this.  Unfortunately, "don't shoot the messenger" doesn't get through at times.  Andy, myself and many many others on here have dealt with people posting stuff as authoritative on here and things have gotten quite nasty at times.  You were attempting to help, which is a good thing.  

If someone posted something about the Apache like that, I'd probably get my knickers in a twist too.  We're territorial like that. Andy has worked on Cobras for a while. Hawkwrench, (who is probably saying "I just wanted to know something about the Cobra!" right now) works on, you guessed it, UH-60s.  

In any case, lets let this one go and get back to the AH-1W.

Jon 

"1-6 is in hot"
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  • From: Glue and paint smeared bench, in La La Land
Posted by dahut on Monday, February 18, 2008 9:10 AM
I guess we all want to be an expert at something, after all. Thanks, man.
Cheers, David
  • Member since
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  • From: usa
Posted by hawkwrench on Thursday, February 21, 2008 10:32 PM
Thanks to all of you for the info.I just got back to the forum after going to the hospital with my wife(surgery) for 3 days.I'll build my "gold cobra" as a desert storm bird I guess.I haven't been to the Two Bobs site yet to order the decals.I hope they've got some DS markings for the helo.I went to Blizzardcon last week looking for a MH/AH-6 little bird for the upcoming 160th SOAR group build I'm in.(Go to Group builds to see the info or join!!!!)Didn't find it, but I did find some 1/35 scale helicopter figures,Nemrod's UH-60 figs.and Kirin's Cobra figures.I might use Kirin's with my Cobra.Do they make any PE sets for this model? 
2/82nd Aviation Battalion"When you absolutely need to be there RIGHT NOW!!!
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Modeling anything with "MARINES" on the side.
Posted by AH1Wsnake on Thursday, February 21, 2008 11:13 PM

Sorry, man. The Twobobs decals have been sold out for quite some time. Might be able to find some on the other buy/sell forums, as well as ebay, possibly. Hopefully a couple other small manufacturers will be stepping up with USMC skid decals soon, such as MAW Decals and Flying Leathernecks -- we shall see.

Eduard does have PE: an interior set, exterior set, and a weapons detailing set.

 --Andy

 

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and those who have met them in battle. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."
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