AH-1E WIP

Just thought I'd beat this dead horse a little more.  here is a listing for a Army document that confirms basically all we've been saying and that the AH-1E IS AH-1S (ECAS):

004227-TM 55-1520-236-23P-1 Aviation Unit and Intermediate Maintenance Repair Parts and Special Tools List (Including Depot Maintenance Repair Parts and Special Tools) For Helicopter, Attack AH-1P (PROD), AH-1E (ECAS), AH-1F (MC) 842 Pages 1987 

If you'd like to order this document, here's the link:

 

http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&qi=DxMMHT8Ke.l2EXdCuxy2ri5kZqI_2382078800_1:46:208&bq=author%3Dus%2520army%26title%3Dtm%252055%2D1520%2D236%2D23p%2D1%2520aviation%2520unit%2520and%2520intermediate%2520maintenance%2520repair%2520parts%2520and%2520special%2520tools%2520list%2520including%2520depot%2520maintenance%2520repair%2520parts%2520and%2520special%2520tools%2520for%2520helicopter%252C%2520attack%2520ah%2D1p%2520prod%2520%252C%2520ah%2D1e%2520ecas%2520%252C%2520ah%2D1f%2520mc

 Ray

 

 

Uhhhh.... yeah.... what they said.....

Guess I got into this one a little late, but I'll attempt to muddy the waters a little more.

Yes, the AH-1E was the AH-1S ECAS.  With all of the different types, it was decided (I believe in 1987, but don't quote me on that, memory isn't so great lately, too many EPs and Limits in there) to redesignate the different variants.

The AH-1S(MOD) - smooth canopy  I've seen refs that say this was designated AH-1M, but I have never seen an S MOD called anything else but an S.
AH-1S(Prod) - Flat canopy AH-1P
AH-1S Step II - Flat canopy, ECAS - AH-1E
AH-1S Step III- Flat canopy, all the bells and Whistles - AH-1F

Anyhow... I like Cobras.  :D

 

Snakedriver,

  I think you got it down pretty darn good now!  That is what research is all about.  And I usually find tht most of what I have read in various refs is at least half true.  Good work!  Get some rest.

    Ray
 

  Finally got to sit quietly and review some of my treferences. The following is from Ken Peoples' Aerofax Datagraph 4, published in 1988: (page 14) "The planned Phase I ECAP improvements first were introduced on the 101st new production Cobra delivered in September 1978. Known today as the AH-1E, that first ship (77-22763) in the batch of 98 AH-1E's (Bell airframe numbers 22101-22198) was equipped with the M79E1 universal turret and M-197 Vulcan 20 mm gun. Fielding of the AH-1E occurred at Ft. Hood, Texas, May 21 through June 22, 1979...The last AH-1E ( 78-23092) rolled off the assembly line during October, 1979."

  Part of the mystery is solved by the next paragraph. Recall that Wikipedia asserts that the AH-1E could not fire the 2.75 inch rocket. True and false. According to Peoples' research, "All AH-1E's were scheduled to be factory-equipped with the Baldwin Electronics, Inc. XM138 Rocket Management Subsystem (RMS) with set fusing capability. But due to the failure of the Little Rock, Arkansas subcontractor to deliver components to Bell, the so-called "up-gun" or ECAS ( Enhanced Cobra Armament System) AH-1E's were delivered with RMS provisions only. (On June 23, 1980 a Bell team arrived at Ft. Bragg to retrofit the first 21 aircraft and by September 1981, all AH-1E's had received the RMS equipment.) The 149th production AH-1E (78-23043) was the first Cobra to have the new K-747 composite blade installed."

  It takes a little figuring here, because only 98 production AH-1E's came out of the Bell plant. I think Peoples is including AH-1P production when he says 78-23043 (the 149th AH-1E) was the first to receive the Kaman composite blade. If we back track from the last E model (78-23092),then 78-23043 would be the 49th actual E model as there were 100 production AH-1P's which were the first non-conversion true production AH-1S variants. All previous AH-1S variants were converted AH-1G airframes (377 according to Peoples). The subsequent AH-1F included 149 production airframes and 380 conversions.

   OK, I'm tired and I'm gonna quit tonight, but you can probably deduce where this is leading. If anyone has any energy left, please feel free to work out the combinations of non-RMS, Kaman blade equipped/metal blade combinations. Very interesting indeed!

 

I had seen the Wikipedia info on the cobra variants and I believe some of the info, but am working to find out more information. I talked with a few old retired farts like me today and most were like me, did not realize there ever was a true E variant. One guy stated he knew about the E models and believed it was a variant and mod of the ECAS variant. He stated many of the units wanted to take this model to Desert Storm because it had what they said better charactistics than than the F model, but did not have the electronic protect capablities of the the F.  I am trying to find someone from the no longer Cobra PM that can shed more light on exactly what was the differences between the E and the F.  If I find out anything I will report it. This has really become an interesting discussion.

I'll admit that as Wkipedia evolves, the data does seem to get more reliable, but here is a line I found browsing the UH-1 entry:

"The UH-1C was specifically developed as a gunship version until the "interim" attack helicopter, the Bell AH-1G Huey Cobra was available and to correct the deficiencies of the UH-1B when it was used in the armed role. The UH-1C was widely referred to as the "Huey Hog" in US Army service."

The UH-1C was NOT widely referred to as a "Huey Hog".  A Hog ship was either a UH-1B with the M3 rocket system which consisted of 48 rockets total or a UH-1B or UH-1C fitted with the M200/M159 19 shot pods.  If a M5 40mm grenade launcher was added it was referred to as a Heavy Hog by some units or still called a Hog ship in others.  Plus no one ever called em "Huey Hogs" to my knowledge, except of course Revell.  I know this is a small detail, but it makes me suspect any detail with which I don't have an intimate knowledge.  Probably being too cautious here, but these cobra variants get murkier every time I delve into them. 

  The drawing with the toilet bowl could have been based on a dash 10 picture. I know for a fact with UH-1 manuals they used old pictures in newer manuals if the parts they were illustrating were the same. 

    Thanks for listing your sources.  My main sources were similar: Wikipedia (started there), Squadron walk around and in action books, Scutts UH-1/AH-1 book, and global security site you mentioned, and the Bishop Ospey volume which is referrenced in the Wikipedia article.  They don't all agree, however, so I'm waiting on a consensus from thsoe who flew them before I call this one a done deal.  I wish the Army would put out an official work on the variants of the Cobra.  Or have they and I missed it?

   Ray
 

  Wikipedia has a comprehensive listing of Cobra variants and sorts out the confusion which occurred in 1988 when the variations on the S model were redesignated. It is this source which states that the E "did not have the M147 Rocket Management Subsystem (RMS) and were unable to fire the 2.75 inch rockets." This source has an extensive bibliography at the end of the article. i have listed some of the print sources which I have.

AH-1S = AH-1Q upgraded with a 1,800 shp T53-L-703 turboshaft. also referred to as AH-1S (Mod); Improved or Modified AH-1S

AH-1P = AH-1S (prod) Step 1; Production AH-1S; First flat plate canopy

AH-1E = AH-1S (ECAS) Step 2; Upgunned AH-1S; M197 20mm cannon

AH-1F = AH1S (MC); Modernized AH-1S

Link:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AH-1_Cobra

Sources: GlobalSecurity.org: Aerophile, vol 2 no. 2 , October 1979; Verlinden Lock On no. 6; Aerofax Datagraph 4

The Aerofax Datagraph indicates in print that the E did not recieve the toilet bowl exhaust, but on a later page shows a line drawing with the bowl in place. I suppose it could have been either way in the field.

I guess I am getting old and forgetful. I do not remember the ECAS having Flat plate glass, but thinking back I do believe it did have the flate plate glass before they called it the Product S. They had so many variants fielded in the late seventies I just forgot about all the changes. I do believe the ECAS did fire the 2.75s though. I don't remember any model that did not have 2.75 pods.

I need to do some more research tomorrow. A friend of mine who works with me was not at work today and he was in the 7/17th the same time I was there. I will ask him about this tomorrow.

Charlie

Charlie,

  Read the same thing about ECAS S model, but it's good to hear apparent confirmation.  ditto on the blades.  However, what do you make of the one source mentioned above that indicated the E had no 2.75 in rocket capability?  I found a single ref that says it had ENHANCED systems for firing 2.75 in rockets.  Just doesn't make sense to not be able to use such a versatile weapon to me.

    Ray

 just as a note, DO NOT use airliners.net to learn your cobra nodels!  Man, what a hodgepodge of birds they have as S's.

While I agree everyone is correct on some of the distinctions of an E model, the little research I did and talking with friends from those days we believe the E model was the ECAS S that used the 20mm gun and changed all the instruments from pounds to percent readings. The Kaman blades I (we) believe was a mod not specific to any one model of that time because we had some on Mod S's, ECAS and Production S's and saw the metal blades on them also. Personally, I never liked the Kaman blades. They were lousey in auto's and a maintenance nightmare in the early days because they debonded so easily. I do agree also with Ray not to get too hungup on this because museum display can be so incorrect.  I did find this a very interesting subject though, because I do not remember the Army ever designating the ECAS or any other variant as an E model. I was out of cobras for about 5 years while I was teaching and doing other stuff and when I came back into them there was only the F models and that funny R at Huntsville.

 Thanks for all the info.

Charlie

I wouldn't get too hung up on what a particular museum displays as a particular model.  Believe me, many museum displays are inaccurate.  Not to say that this one in particular is, but that has been my experience.  As for the E not having a fire control system for 2.75 in rockets, if that's true then there is a problem with at least one of the pics above as it clearly has a 19 shotter inboard.  I am very keen to see what the consensus is on what makes a true AH-1E.  By the way, you mind if I ask what your sources were?  Just out of curiosity.

      Ray

Anybody know for sure where the pitot was on the E?  I was just wondering if it was on the transmission housing like the Q or elsewhere.

  Guys,

   The picture gets muddier the deeper I get into this project. Several sources indicate that the E model was identical to the up-gunned S (ECAS) with the major external difference being the type of rotor blade installed. The E model is alleged to use the Kaman composite blade while the S (ECAS) retained the old style metal blade; this in spite of the fact that the photos Ray posted clearly show old style blades on what I assume are E models. To add furthur confusion to the discussion, there are photos of an E model equipped with a toilet bowl exhaust extension at a San Diego museum. The most confusing bit of information (which I have not confirmed from a second source) was a statment I read which said the E model lacked the fire control system associated with the 2.75" rockets. Sheesh!

   I am using a Fujimi S model as a basis for the conversion. So far the only major mods have been the addition of the air inlets on the engine doors, a "bump" on the cyclic side of the flat canopy enclosure, and the theft of the composite blades from a Hasegawa F model. I've done some scratchbuilding in the cockpit and as much minor reshaping of the Fugimi fuselage as my meager skills will allow. I've also added the cable cutters from a PE fret that I bought twenty years ago. Just got a new digital camera to replace the one I took into the hot tub on the Carnival Valor while the wife and I were on vacation so I'll post a few pictures soon.

Charlie,

  Assuming I have done my research correctly, these should all be E's.  Basically, thay look like F's minus the data probe, tear drop fairing on the front of the transmision housing and the modified exhaust.  Also, I have yet to see one with a toilet bowl, although that doesn't meean they didn't have them.  It looks to me like the old 72nd ACE AH-1S kit is an E, but it comes with the toilet bowl.  Anyway, here are some pics.

    Ray 

" border="0" />

 

" border="0" />

 

[img]

[img]

[img]

[img]

[img]" border="0" />[/img][/img][/img][/img][/img] 

This is interesting because I have never heard of the E model cobra and I thought I was rated in every variant there was except the original G with the tail rotor on the left side. I remember the G then I transititioned into the Q, S, Mod S, ECAS, Production S and finally the F, and even a R model at Huntsville that was a test vehicle. I must have missed the E or one of those I mentioned became an E. I remember when I was with the 7/17th at Hood in the mid seventies our unit had the S's, Mod S's and ECAS plus I was also current in Hueys and 58s, Talk about check rides. Every six months we had to take a check ride in every helicopter we were current in. The cobras pretty much had the same engine instruments except the ECAS went from the old torque lbs to percentages and I think other instruments on that model changed making it harder to remember limitations.

Charlie 

David,

The Fujimi AH-1S kit has a good toilet bowl exhaust.  With a Cobra Company AH-1T cockpit tweaked just a bit, you can make a decent AH-1E in 48th.  Cockpit won't be 100% correct (the Monogram AH-1F cockpit would be better) but it'll work!

Jon

for those of us that want todo this in 1/48 doesnt Fireball offer a resin toilet bowl in one of its update sets?

 

David

Point of clarification, Jon; the main rotor in the Italeri UH-1C 1/72 kit are the same parts as those is in their UH-1B and it's more akin to the UH-1D's original rotor and not really accurate for a B either.  The Cobra Company 540 rotor was originally made to fix this glaring error in the Italeri kit.  The Fujimi 1/72 AH-1S and the Revell-Germany 1/72 AH-1S are pretty good basic kits for the AH-1E fuselage.  The Revell-Germany kit does include a toilet bowl.

Jim,

I'd be happy to!  I'm working on an E model in 48th now too.  The Snake pile on my workbench is getting smaller, but I've still got five building.  Just finished my AH-1W/NTS.

Joseph's right, the 540 head is pretty much what you need.  I'd suggest robbing the main rotor from an Italeri UH-1C and mating it with the Hasegawa AH-1F kit.  The exhaust may be an issue, since I don't know what's available out there for "toilet bowls", etc. 

You can use either the standard 540 blades or the newer blades with the tapered tips for an E model. 

Glad Rucker went well, I'm sorry I couldn't be there.  We definitely need to get together soon!

Jon

Jon's busy painting teeth on 1/1 scale Apaches or some other such important stuff.  The standard 540 rotor is appropriate, just like on an AH-1G or UH-1C.   The blades can be either the early-style metal blades or the Kaman composite blades.  The best early metal rotor is the resin one from Cobra Company and the best (only) composite version is found in the Hasegawa AH-1F.